Donald says to early for protocols

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, cruizergal70 said:

Do yoy really think the Carnival management have not been developing protocols? Of course they have. They are just keeping quiet since it's too early to say publicly. 

 

Why so much anger? Cruising isn't life. Cruising is just a vacation.  Let the management,  CLIA, CDC handle it. It will get handled in due time.

Yes, they have been developing protocols, but protocols that don't meet the requirements in place at this time, so it becomes a waste of time and money to develop things for "hoped for" future circumstances, and which don't meet the "worst case" scenario that is keeping the ships from operating.  Kind of like another ship and shipping company that claimed their ship was unsinkable, so they didn't prepare for the worst.

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

Do yoy really think the Carnival management have not been developing protocols? Of course they have. They are just keeping quiet since it's too early to say publicly. 

 

Why so much anger? Cruising isn't life. Cruising is just a vacation.  Let the management,  CLIA, CDC handle it. It will get handled in due time.

Good question, never gets answered.

[PhillyFan33579]

2 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

Do yoy really think the Carnival management have not been developing protocols? Of course they have. They are just keeping quiet since it's too early to say publicly. 

 

Why so much anger? Cruising isn't life. Cruising is just a vacation.  Let the management,  CLIA, CDC handle it. It will get handled in due time.

I think your last comment hit the nail on the head...it will get “handled in due time”. That is the part that has a lot of people upset who are desperate to cruise again.  (I agree with your point that there is a lot more to life than cruising, but it’s not up to me to tell other people how to prioritize things in their life). Chengkp75 has stated numerous times the CDC has published guidelines telling cruise lines what they need to do to resume operations. However, the cruise lines don’t seem to be in any rush to meet these guidelines. Specifically talking about Carnival, their approach seems to be based on waiting things out, which unfortunately is not really a good approach to resuming operation from US ports. 

[cruizergal70]

2 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Chengkp75 has stated numerous times the CDC has published guidelines telling cruise lines what they need to do to resume operations. However, the cruise lines don’t seem to be in any rush to meet these guidelines. Specifically talking about Carnival, their approach seems to be based on waiting things out, which unfortunately is not really a good approach to resuming operation from US ports. 

Carnival is a huge multi brand corporation. Are these recommendations easy to do? Won't they take time to review, develop procedures,  figure out the physical layout changes needed, buy new equipment,  modify areas, get and train new staff.  Get approvals. Doing all these things take time and money.  

 

Let's also not forget that even if Carnival got ships going soon, many ports will have requirements for ships and passengers. That's dozens of different rules all across the globe.

 

They can't just throw up a few hand sanitizer stations and hit the ocean.

[PhillyFan33579]

49 minutes ago, cruizergal70 said:

Carnival is a huge multi brand corporation. Are these recommendations easy to do? Won't they take time to review, develop procedures,  figure out the physical layout changes needed, buy new equipment,  modify areas, get and train new staff.  Get approvals. Doing all these things take time and money.  

 

Let's also not forget that even if Carnival got ships going soon, many ports will have requirements for ships and passengers. That's dozens of different rules all across the globe.

 

They can't just throw up a few hand sanitizer stations and hit the ocean.

Sounds like you are saying Carnival is not very efficient when it comes to making changes, when other places like Disney World and Universal Studios Orlando have made significant changes to their parks and invested a lot of money in their parks in response to this virus. Keep in mind Carnival is keeping itself from not cruising from the US, not the CDC. 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

13 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

Do yoy really think the Carnival management have not been developing protocols? Of course they have. They are just keeping quiet since it's too early to say publicly. 

 

Why so much anger? Cruising isn't life. Cruising is just a vacation.  Let the management,  CLIA, CDC handle it. It will get handled in due time.

 

The anger is left to the "optimists" who book every couple of months, then rage about the (very predictable) cancellations.

Carnival's management - along with NCL's and RCI's - has sat back as the industry circled the drain for the past four months. They admit to having no protocols, yet they've been peddling cruises all along ... so which is it?  Do they have a plan that the CDC will accept? (of course not).  Do they have a plan to even propose ... sure doesn't look like it.

 

Time for CC members to direct their anger where it belongs: The executive suites @ headquarters as well as CLIA. Blaming the CDC is laughable misdirection.

[BlerkOne]

Just now, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

Carnival's management - along with NCL's and RCI's - has sat back as the industry circled the drain for the past four months. They admit to having no protocols, yet they've been peddling cruises all along ... so which is it?  Do they have a plan that the CDC will accept? (of course not).  Do they have a plan to even propose ... sure doesn't look like it.

 

 

 

How do you figure that? Carnival is trying to restart cruising in Germany and then Italy. OF course they have protocols. Royal has a venture with Tui who restarted in Germany. NCL? Who cares? But they have published their protocols, too.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

6 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Sounds like you are saying Carnival is not very efficient when it comes to making changes, when other places like Disney World and Universal Studios Orlando have made significant changes to their parks and invested a lot of money in their parks in response to this virus. Keep in mind Carnival is keeping itself from not cruising from the US, not the CDC. 

 

Post of the day!   🥉

None of the point you've made here would be problematic if:
 (a) cruise cheerleaders didn't keep trying to steer the anger toward the CDC, the ports, the media, the politicians, etc etc. etc.
 (b) the cruise lines publicly acknowledged that cruising can't happen now ... and then stopped selling cruises.
 

Cruise fans would be every bit as saddened, but they wouldn't be cheated. Unfortunately, Fain & Duffy & Donald & Del Rio have other priorities.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

7 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

Carnival is a huge multi brand corporation. Are these recommendations easy to do? Won't they take time to review, develop procedures,  figure out the physical layout changes needed, buy new equipment,  modify areas, get and train new staff.  Get approvals. Doing all these things take time and money.  

 

Let's also not forget that even if Carnival got ships going soon, many ports will have requirements for ships and passengers. That's dozens of different rules all across the globe.

 

They can't just throw up a few hand sanitizer stations and hit the ocean.

 

The CDC No Sail Order made clear in mid-April exactly what concerns needed to be addressed (much of the info was actually out by late March):

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/04/15/2020-07930/no-sail-order-and-suspension-of-further-embarkation-notice-of-modification-and-extension-and-other

We are now closing in on August. The cruise lines have squandered billions (and untold customer good will), absorbed mega-debt, cut their future capacities through fleet reduction ... yet evidently made zero headway into answering the concerns that keep their ships parked. It may be that the challenges cannot be surmounted: It was the job of Fain, Del Rio, Donald and their various minions to find out.

[FiredogCruiser]

17 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Again, neither raging nor mad - but surely observant. Facts are what they are.

 

 

 

Under current conditions, the facts are no plan that would be submitted would be acceptable, or enable sailing. Why would anyone submit a plan that would not result in a positive outcome? Answer no one, which is why none of the lines have submitted anything to this point.

 

I believe it would be far more constructive if the CDC were to actually sit down with the industry, and jointly develop an acceptable plan, but so far the CDC has been unwilling to take that approach.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

1 hour ago, FiredogCruiser said:

 

Under current conditions, the facts are no plan that would be submitted would be acceptable, or enable sailing. Why would anyone submit a plan that would not result in a positive outcome? Answer no one, which is why none of the lines have submitted anything to this point.

 

I believe it would be far more constructive if the CDC were to actually sit down with the industry, and jointly develop an acceptable plan, but so far the CDC has been unwilling to take that approach.

 

Not the CDC's job to make the cruise industry sustainable. Not even close.

That responsibility is the cruise industry's alone.

 

 

Way too many people seem eager to exonerate Fain, Duffy, Del Rio, Donald and their people for a consistent pattern of bungling, laziness and failure.

 

 

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, FiredogCruiser said:

 

Under current conditions, the facts are no plan that would be submitted would be acceptable, or enable sailing. Why would anyone submit a plan that would not result in a positive outcome? Answer no one, which is why none of the lines have submitted anything to this point.

 

I believe it would be far more constructive if the CDC were to actually sit down with the industry, and jointly develop an acceptable plan, but so far the CDC has been unwilling to take that approach.

Despite the other reply to the contrary, while it might not be the CDC’s job, they work for us and if it makes sense we should tell them to do it.  

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Despite the other reply to the contrary, while it might not be the CDC’s job, they work for us and if it makes sense we should tell them to do it.  

But the CDC does not have the business acumen to determine the best means to implement the requirements in a way that would both preserve public health and preserve the viability of the companies.  And, while they should work together through an agency like CLIA to present the "industry best practices", each line will need to evaluate and custom tailor things to meet their fleets and business practices.

[jimbo5544]

13 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

But the CDC does not have the business acumen to determine the best means to implement the requirements in a way that would both preserve public health and preserve the viability of the companies.  And, while they should work together through an agency like CLIA to present the "industry best practices", each line will need to evaluate and custom tailor things to meet their fleets and business practices.

You certainly know way more than I on these topics.  my past experience in the business world tells me that when you bring the parties together and a discussion occurs, everybody wins (assuming all are open to change).  The CDC cold say this needs to be done and the cruise lines can say it is untenable for this or that reason and they move to a mitigated solution.  Of course I have over simplified it but that was my thought.

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

You certainly know way more than I on these topics.  my past experience in the business world tells me that when you bring the parties together and a discussion occurs, everybody wins (assuming all are open to change).  The CDC cold say this needs to be done and the cruise lines can say it is untenable for this or that reason and they move to a mitigated solution.  Of course I have over simplified it but that was my thought.

And, I believe that this is what has been ongoing.  The lines have submitted plans, but the CDC does not feel they meet the requirements, and I'm assuming that the lines have not given any facts as to why they can't meet the requirements, or whether what they are proposing meets the requirements part way, and why they can't meet them fully.  As noted, the CDC and the cruise industry have worked together well before, with the VSP, as recently as 2018 amending the Plan in many areas.  An example of the meeting in the middle of theory and practice is the swim diaper splash pool.  Originally, this was required to have no standing water, so that any "accidents" drain away immediately.  It was found, after a few years of actual practice with the pools, that children were burning their feet on the pool surface, and the requirement was changed to "no more than 2" of water".  I'm still not blaming Carnival solely, I believe all the cruise lines are trying their best to kick this can down the road, and not entering into discussions or negotiations with CDC wholeheartedly.

[jimbo5544]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, I believe that this is what has been ongoing.  The lines have submitted plans, but the CDC does not feel they meet the requirements, and I'm assuming that the lines have not given any facts as to why they can't meet the requirements, or whether what they are proposing meets the requirements part way, and why they can't meet them fully.  As noted, the CDC and the cruise industry have worked together well before, with the VSP, as recently as 2018 amending the Plan in many areas.  An example of the meeting in the middle of theory and practice is the swim diaper splash pool.  Originally, this was required to have no standing water, so that any "accidents" drain away immediately.  It was found, after a few years of actual practice with the pools, that children were burning their feet on the pool surface, and the requirement was changed to "no more than 2" of water".  I'm still not blaming Carnival solely, I believe all the cruise lines are trying their best to kick this can down the road, and not entering into discussions or negotiations with CDC wholeheartedly.

I do not care who gets blamed, I just want it solved.  As a side note I listened to the summit until it blew up with technical difficulties (and they could get to any cruise related info at all).  While it was interesting, it was more along the lines we thought and not about restarting cruises.  

[BlerkOne]

On 7/26/2020 at 7:35 AM, glentally said:

Germany is sailing  no ports just days at sea

Taiwan is sailing with ports.

 

[BlerkOne]

We the people are no where in the chain of command of the CDC.

 

AD said it a while ago - cruising will begin when the people are ready for it to begin and that will include masks, distancing, etc. We have met the enemy and it is us. Stop trying to shift blame to others

 

[jimbo5544]

14 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

We the people are no where in the chain of command of the CDC.

 

AD said it a while ago - cruising will begin when the people are ready for it to begin and that will include masks, distancing, etc. We have met the enemy and it is us. Stop trying to shift blame to others

 

Where is the cdc funded from?

[broberts]

2 hours ago, FiredogCruiser said:

 

...

I believe it would be far more constructive if the CDC were to actually sit down with the industry, and jointly develop an acceptable plan, but so far the CDC has been unwilling to take that approach.

 

This suggests that the CDC should engage in some sort of negotiation with the cruise lines. An attitude I find worrisome. The CDC is charged with protecting people from disease, not enabling commercial enterprises. 

 

If cruise lines find the CDC guidance impossible to follow these transnational profit oriented entities should inform prospective customers. The current practice of accepting deposits for product that is true vaporware is unethical.

 

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, broberts said:

 

This suggests that the CDC should engage in some sort of negotiation with the cruise lines. An attitude I find worrisome. The CDC is charged with protecting people from disease, not enabling commercial enterprises. 

 

If cruise lines find the CDC guidance impossible to follow these transnational profit oriented entities should inform prospective customers. The current practice of accepting deposits for product that is true vaporware is unethical.

 

 Not call it negotiation, but advice and counsel on the major items.  There is nothing unethical about accepting deposits for cruises, it has been happening for years.  Let’s let the dead horse lie.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

57 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

This suggests that the CDC should engage in some sort of negotiation with the cruise lines. An attitude I find worrisome. The CDC is charged with protecting people from disease, not enabling commercial enterprises. 

 

If cruise lines find the CDC guidance impossible to follow these transnational profit oriented entities should inform prospective customers. The current practice of accepting deposits for product that is true vaporware is unethical.

 

Amen to every word you've written here. 🥉

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Where is the cdc funded from?

Congress.

[jimbo5544]

4 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Congress.

they work for us as well.  The sooner we all grasp hat the better we all will be.  

[BlerkOne]

38 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

they work for us as well.  The sooner we all grasp hat the better we all will be.  

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Sure they do. That's why they have such high ratings. Just like the other branches of government.