Donald says to early for protocols

[jimbo5544]

3 hours ago, beerman2 said:

Maybe people need to follow some of Chengkp75 posts on NCL board. Having worked for NCL and now in private shipping industry he knows a thing or two about cruise lines.

 

He is pretty adamant that the responsibility falls on the cruise lines and "they" have been dragging their feet,not the CDC. Quite likely many of the minor details have been agreed to, it's the more costly ones cruise lines aren't willing to accept and hoping the CDC will relent.

I do not question his expertise, but I have another view.  His view of dragging feet can be looked at their assessment of it being untenable.  If the CDC worked with the industry to mitigate concerns, it would be a hole lot easier for everyone.

[KirkNC]

If you read the 20 page report issued with the CDC no sail extension, the industry has lots of work to do.

[quattrohead]

And I just saw the Bahama's have banned people traveling in from the USA....it's done for 2020 folks.

[FiredogCruiser]

What do you mean by "rough case against the industry"?

 

American government agencies at all levels, from local port authorities through federal agencies have shown aggressive approaches to the cruise industry for years. In some cases bureaucrats mimicing political figures with an axe to grind because of ocean cruise ships being foreign flagged. In other instances it was the other way around, but the bottom line is that there has been long standing resentment over the lack of bureaucratic authority over the industry, despite the amount of control currently in place. A perfect example IMHO was the Broward County hearing fiasco, where local bureaucratic authority tried to make the USCG responsible for the lack of shoreside pandemic mitigation. Anyone who objectively listened to that hearing could see how unprepared they were, and how desperate they were to assign blame, and ignore completely their inability to meet updated pandemic guidelines, in place since the SARS scare.

 

Bottom line is what we are seeing is the use of the COVID-19 fear, as cover for ports unable and in many cases unwilling, to meet pandemic guidelines. Until the shoreside deficiencies are addressed expect the no sale orders to continue.

[jimbo5544]

20 minutes ago, FiredogCruiser said:

What do you mean by "rough case against the industry"?

 

American government agencies at all levels, from local port authorities through federal agencies have shown aggressive approaches to the cruise industry for years. In some cases bureaucrats mimicing political figures with an axe to grind because of ocean cruise ships being foreign flagged. In other instances it was the other way around, but the bottom line is that there has been long standing resentment over the lack of bureaucratic authority over the industry, despite the amount of control currently in place. A perfect example IMHO was the Broward County hearing fiasco, where local bureaucratic authority tried to make the USCG responsible for the lack of shoreside pandemic mitigation. Anyone who objectively listened to that hearing could see how unprepared they were, and how desperate they were to assign blame, and ignore completely their inability to meet updated pandemic guidelines, in place since the SARS scare.

 

Bottom line is what we are seeing is the use of the COVID-19 fear, as cover for ports unable and in many cases unwilling, to meet pandemic guidelines. Until the shoreside deficiencies are addressed expect the no sale orders to continue.

Interesting take.

[beerman2]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

I do not question his expertise, but I have another view.  His view of dragging feet can be looked at their assessment of it being untenable.  If the CDC worked with the industry to mitigate concerns, it would be a hole lot easier for everyone.

I think one of the biggest areas of concern is cruise lines finding hospitals in ports to agree to basically be at the cruise lines call and beckoning should an outbreak occur.

 

Do you think hospitals would be willing to cater to the industry and forego day in and day out operations should that happen?

 

No matter how one chooses to look at it, it is a U.S. Health issue , not CDC vs.cruise lines. Let's work on U.S. citizens first.

 

Again it's 1/2 empty 1/2 full those wanting /needing to cruise are blaming the CDC.

 

Other 1/2 sees it as CDC trying to stop the spread as best as they see fit.

[jimbo5544]

3 minutes ago, beerman2 said:

I think one of the biggest areas of concern is cruise lines finding hospitals in ports to agree to basically be at the cruise lines call and beckoning should an outbreak occur.

 

Do you think hospitals would be willing to cater to the industry and forego day in and day out operations should that happen?

 

No matter how one chooses to look at it, it is a U.S. Health issue , not CDC vs.cruise lines. Let's work on U.S. citizens first.

 

Again it's 1/2 empty 1/2 full those wanting /needing to cruise are blaming the CDC.

 

Other 1/2 sees it as CDC trying to stop the spread as best as they see fit.

On your last line, I do not doubt their effort, just their performance.  Cruising will not start till the numbers go down regardless.  

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

Arnold Donald, July 20:
      “So when the time is right and we can function in a way that is in the best interest of public health, we are prepared to do so"
      "We’re not sailing any guests"
      "There is no reason to be talking about a lot of protocols if we’re not sailing anybody."

Carnival's website, July 20:
   Taking reservations for Carnival Fantasy out of Mobile, 5-day western Caribbean in October of 2020.    (also in April of 2021, by which time Fantasy will be ball bearings, refrigerators and Silverado chassis)

But hey, when the CDC No Sail Order gets extended through the end of the year, Donald promises to put your deposit toward another FCC. Break it down to cartoon form, CCL's business model is:
 

 

[beerman2]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

On your last line, I do not doubt their effort, just their performance.  Cruising will not start till the numbers go down regardless.  

Can't remember what thread it was on , but I'm pretty sure the government ( pick an agency) is well aware of how Carnival for one ignored the environmental concerns and were fined heftily for their lack of following the guidelines. And basically ignoring it.

 

Is it possible those same fears about cruise lines not doing what they should weighing heavily on some of the discussions going forward concerning a safe healthy environment?

 

Would love to be that fly on the wall?

[beerman2]

4 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Arnold Donald, July 20:
      “So when the time is right and we can function in a way that is in the best interest of public health, we are prepared to do so"
      "We’re not sailing any guests"
      "There is no reason to be talking about a lot of protocols if we’re not sailing anybody."

Carnival's website, July 20:
   Taking reservations for Carnival Fantasy out of Mobile, 5-day western Caribbean in October of 2020.    (also in April of 2021, by which time Fantasy will be ball bearings, refrigerators and Silverado chassis)

But hey, when the CDC No Sail Order gets extended through the end of the year, Donald promises to put your deposit toward another FCC. Break it down to cartoon form, CCL's business model is:
 

 

Now that's hilarious!

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

I do not question his expertise, but I have another view.  His view of dragging feet can be looked at their assessment of it being untenable.  If the CDC worked with the industry to mitigate concerns, it would be a hole lot easier for everyone.

If the industry showed a united front, and showed that some of the measures were economically unfeasible, and they proposed alternatives that addressed the concerns of the original requirements, then I would have some regard for the "feet dragging", but I see that it took months to start up multi-line think tanks, so I don't believe they ever produced any alternatives.  You merely have to look at the CDC's VSP, as a co-operative venture between what the CDC feels are necessary sanitation requirements, and the cruise lines stating "what is attainable".

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Then explain why the CDC has not prevented airlines from resuming flights to and from China?  

The CDC has no enforcement ability whatsoever.

4 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Name one other industry the CDC has directly ceased all operations? I don’t think the cruise lines have done anything to help themselves in this situation, but the CDC seems to have targeted the cruise lines excessively. 
 

If the CDC was really concerned with reducing this pandemic, they would make it mandatory for everyone to wear masks and enforce social distancing. Of course they couldn’t do this without the support of the government at all levels around the country. 

Well, the CDC did not "cease all operations" of the cruise lines, just those calling at US ports.  The cruise lines made their voluntary halt because countries around the world were not allowing cruise ships to call.  Even the original NSO did not "ban" cruises entirely, they said that cruises could only continue "with approval of the USCG, in consultation with the HHS/CDC",  but guess what, that is what happens every day when a ship enters port, pre-pandemic.

 

The CDC has no jurisdiction to make a mandatory mask requirement, they only deal with foreign and interstate travel, so grocery stores, malls, and theme parks are outside their jurisdiction.

3 hours ago, Honolulu Blue said:

 

The CDC has shut down the cruise ship industry (1) because they really do see cruise ships as a major potential infection threat, and (2) because they can.  They don't have enforcement authority over the airlines because the FAA has that, and the FAA has chosen not to use much of its authority so far.  They can't shut down or dictate terms to big indoor stadiums or bars (as much as I think they'd like to) because they don't have the authority.  They can only recommend things.

Again, nothing in the original NSO, nor any of the subsequent extensions, specifically banned cruises, it only said that cruises needed to meet certain requirements, and then the CDC would be happy to allow cruises to continue.  The CDC has the same authority over interstate air travel as it does the cruise industry, but it has no enforcement capability over either.  The FAA can enforce rules on air travel, and the USCG enforces the rules on sea travel.  You will notice that all of the wording in the NSO states that it is the USCG, "in consultation with the CDC" that has the authority to grant a cruise ship "pratique" to enter a port.  And, air travel is tied into essential workers, while cruise ships are not.

[PhillyFan33579]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC has no enforcement ability whatsoever.

Well, the CDC did not "cease all operations" of the cruise lines, just those calling at US ports.  The cruise lines made their voluntary halt because countries around the world were not allowing cruise ships to call.  Even the original NSO did not "ban" cruises entirely, they said that cruises could only continue "with approval of the USCG, in consultation with the HHS/CDC",  but guess what, that is what happens every day when a ship enters port, pre-pandemic.

 

The CDC has no jurisdiction to make a mandatory mask requirement, they only deal with foreign and interstate travel, so grocery stores, malls, and theme parks are outside their jurisdiction.

Again, nothing in the original NSO, nor any of the subsequent extensions, specifically banned cruises, it only said that cruises needed to meet certain requirements, and then the CDC would be happy to allow cruises to continue.  The CDC has the same authority over interstate air travel as it does the cruise industry, but it has no enforcement capability over either.  The FAA can enforce rules on air travel, and the USCG enforces the rules on sea travel.  You will notice that all of the wording in the NSO states that it is the USCG, "in consultation with the CDC" that has the authority to grant a cruise ship "pratique" to enter a port.  And, air travel is tied into essential workers, while cruise ships are not.

What is frustrating, at least from my perspective, is the CDC is supposed to protect the health of the US. However, it seems the only thing they have done is stopped cruise ships from operating from US ports, which one could argue is not making the US safer. Everything else the CDC recommends tends to be pushed aside or is not enforced by an agency that has the authority to do so, depending on the recommendation. Based on what is going on in the US these days I would say the CDC has failed miserably, although I understand their enforcement abilities are very limited. 

[naxer]

I can't imagine what regulations or procedures can be taken to minimize the risk for cruisers.  It's an airborne virus--if someone is breathing, they are potentially spreading it.  It can be spread when a person has no symptoms, or before they have symptoms.  What can a cruise line possibly do, or what can the CDC possibly require, that would prevent the spread of the disease when 10s of thousands of people have the disease in and around the port cities?  And even if there were things that could be done, like wearing a you-know-what, some people get very, very, very, angry about that. 

[Cafedumonde]

13 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Because the CDC is not trying to destroy the airline industry. 

Bingo

[Cafedumonde]

As a private individual I am not allowed to give money to government departments because it could be considered a bribe.  But the cdc has a “foundation,” where private individuals like Bill Gates give millions of dollars to fund cdc efforts.  I do not think it is a fully objective health organization, frankly.  They are all over the map.  And their treatment of cruise lines makes no sense.  It is like there is something going on behind the scenes.

[beerman2]

5 hours ago, Cafedumonde said:

As a private individual I am not allowed to give money to government departments because it could be considered a bribe.  But the cdc has a “foundation,” where private individuals like Bill Gates give millions of dollars to fund cdc efforts.  I do not think it is a fully objective health organization, frankly.  They are all over the map.  And their treatment of cruise lines makes no sense.  It is like there is something going on behind the scenes.

As mentioned before after the environmental issue (Carnival dumping) and being fined heftily after ignoring guidelines, I'm sure the CDC (another government agency) is well aware of that negligence.

 

So it's fair to wonder can/will cruise lines follow the next set of safety guidelines. Will history repeat itself and they try to circumvent some things. After all it's about the bottom line and the new guidelines will certainly cost the cruiselines money.

 

If the CDC doesn't feel the cruiselines are on board it does make sense how they are being treated. This conspiracy theory is total BS.

[PhillyFan33579]

8 hours ago, fyree39 said:

My thoughts are that my October cruise will cancel. My thoughts also are that Arnold Donald is moving with great caution, as are the heads of the other lines. There is not yet a solution to what protocols should be put in place. As Donald said, too much of the information given changes after a short period. Any protocols in place may be made moot by new information.

This is the part I don’t understand. All over the US stores, restaurants, amusement parks, etc. have made significant changes in response to this virus including new protocols, installing barriers, plexiglas, etc. The fact that Donald says Carnival hasn’t implemented any changes yet to their ships implies, at least to me, that it is going to be a long time before any Carnival ship resumes operations. 

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, Cafedumonde said:

 I do not think it is a fully objective health organization, frankly.

I shouldn't go down this rabbit hole and feed this, but I will.  What nefarious conspiracy is the CDC hiding?  What is their "slant", if they are not "fully objective"?  What is the rationale for wanting to "ruin the cruise industry"?

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

This is the part I don’t understand. All over the US stores, restaurants, amusement parks, etc. have made significant changes in response to this virus including new protocols, installing barriers, plexiglas, etc. The fact that Donald says Carnival hasn’t implemented any changes yet to their ships implies, at least to me, that it is going to be a long time before any Carnival ship resumes operations. 

This is it precisely.  What Donald's statement shows is that while cruise lines could implement protocols to meet the CDC requirements, they are hoping that by the time the US has its internal struggle with the virus under control, that those protocols will be found to not be necessary, so why spend the money on something we don't need.  In other words, we could make protocols and submit plans that would clear the ships to operate, but since the ports are having trouble controlling the virus, and many are not allowing this kind of gathering/transportation, why should we bother.  This statement, alone, shows that it is not the CDC to blame for the continued delay in clearing ships to sail, it is the cruise industry itself.

[jetsfan58]

I am a firm believer in process and transparency when dealing with major business decisions. I have no idea where Carnival is at this time regarding either. Let's just pray that they are feverishly (no pun intended) trying to figure out "How To Keep Everyone safe"  Sometimes it comes down to plain old "Common Sense"; if all elements don't match then don't proceed! 

[FiredogCruiser]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I shouldn't go down this rabbit hole and feed this, but I will.  What nefarious conspiracy is the CDC hiding?  What is their "slant", if they are not "fully objective"?  What is the rationale for wanting to "ruin the cruise industry"?

I suggest greater bureaucratic control over foreign flagged ships, especially in areas of personnel management and compensation. I am waiting for greater concessions as a condition for engagement on protocols.

I am also amazed that there is no discussion regarding the manufacturing flaws in some of the test kits being used which are contributing huge numbers of false positive results. Article posted just this morning regarding that, and the policy implications the numbers are having.

[FiredogCruiser]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This is it precisely.  What Donald's statement shows is that while cruise lines could implement protocols to meet the CDC requirements, they are hoping that by the time the US has its internal struggle with the virus under control, that those protocols will be found to not be necessary, so why spend the money on something we don't need.  In other words, we could make protocols and submit plans that would clear the ships to operate, but since the ports are having trouble controlling the virus, and many are not allowing this kind of gathering/transportation, why should we bother.  This statement, alone, shows that it is not the CDC to blame for the continued delay in clearing ships to sail, it is the cruise industry itself.

Could not disagree more. Take a look at what Broward County just did in requiring masks in homes. Port shoreside pandemic mitigation is not a cruise line responsibility. Until these port cities are capable of meeting federal pandemic guidelines, expect ports to remain closed, and pressure to be on the CDC to continue extending no sail orders.

Ports that want the vacationers dollars have a responsibility to have plans in place to mitigate. Many don't, and worse don't want to. Philadelphia, no longer a cruise departure port, just recently said they won't allow home fans at NFL games this year. Huge numbers were seen in Philly, and they did not meet pandemic guidelines, and wanted stockpile inventories confiscated from other parts of the state.

[cruiser man 60]

4 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

This is the part I don’t understand. All over the US stores, restaurants, amusement parks, etc. have made significant changes in response to this virus including new protocols, installing barriers, plexiglas, etc. The fact that Donald says Carnival hasn’t implemented any changes yet to their ships implies, at least to me, that it is going to be a long time before any Carnival ship resumes operations. 

Perhaps he is waiting to see how the sailings of Aida which is owned by Carnival go with the new protocols, these sailings commence next week from Germany. Also Costa another Carnival line have announced they hope to restart in August from Italy.

[chengkp75]

41 minutes ago, FiredogCruiser said:

Could not disagree more. Take a look at what Broward County just did in requiring masks in homes. Port shoreside pandemic mitigation is not a cruise line responsibility. Until these port cities are capable of meeting federal pandemic guidelines, expect ports to remain closed, and pressure to be on the CDC to continue extending no sail orders.

Ports that want the vacationers dollars have a responsibility to have plans in place to mitigate. Many don't, and worse don't want to. Philadelphia, no longer a cruise departure port, just recently said they won't allow home fans at NFL games this year. Huge numbers were seen in Philly, and they did not meet pandemic guidelines, and wanted stockpile inventories confiscated from other parts of the state.

I don't know what Broward did with masks in homes, so I can't comment on that, could you elaborate?  Port shoreside pandemic mitigation is not the cruise lines' responsibility, you are correct.  However, there is nothing in the CDC NSO that deals with mitigating the virus on shore, other than to require adequate care facilities outside of the shore facilities to care for any infected persons who are infected on the ship.  Both the port and the cruise line need to make agreements on health care, and this is what the CDC NSO requires; contracts with health care providers (so contracts between cruise line and hospital) to handle patients, not just dumping ill passengers onto the port and hoping the port can handle them.