Changes to Covid/Mask policies --Apex

[angelsil]

I think the point being missed here is that some of us booked an Apex cruise when the policy wasn't in place and Celebrity's line was "fully (well 95%) vaccinated cruises; no masks required if vaccinated". In my case, I specifically chose not to sail out of Florida, even though it's really convenient, because I wanted that 95% vaccinated cruise. Of course things are going to evolve, but some of us feel like this is a bait and switch.

 

That the policy  Greece has had for months on land (which I 100% understand and will of course follow on shore) would also apply on a fully vaccinated cruise ship is something that Celebrity likely knew and didn't share with us. They should have, because I would not have booked this sailing and I'm sure I'm not alone. 

 

FWIW, I did Disney both during the full mask protocol (brutal in the Florida heat) and more recently where masks were only required in specific indoor scenarios. I know which vacation was more fun. On this cruise, I'm paying a lot of money to fly thousands of miles to mask up poolside. Sorry, but that's not my idea of a good time.

 

But, yes, our options are to suck it up or cancel and hope I can use my FCC on a cruise out of Florida if they ever actually get fully vaccinated cruises going here. I'm waiting to see how the first few Apex cruises go before making that decision. It's a big endeavor to travel all the way to Athens from Florida and I don't want to be unhappy with my expensive vacation when I get there.

[Fouremco]

24 minutes ago, angelsil said:

I think the point being missed here is that some of us booked an Apex cruise when the policy wasn't in place and Celebrity's line was "fully (well 95%) vaccinated cruises; no masks required if vaccinated".

I respectfully disagree, as I think that everyone here is well aware of the fact that the rules changed after many people had already booked. What many of us are saying, however, is that changes were to be expected, and that anyone making an early booking for a cruise in 2021 should have done so with full recognition of the constant changes brought about by the pandemic and the global attempts to combat it. We delayed booking anything before March 2022 because we anticipated the start up problems and wanted to avoid them if at all possible. While we feel reasonably confident that cruising will stabilize over the next nine months, we won't be surprised or annoyed if our cruise undergoes changes in health and safety protocols, itinerary or other facets of onboard life.

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, Lagranger36 said:

Right now Greece and other EU countries are highly dependent on Americans due to EU travel restrictions, in addition to restrictions on all other parts of the world.  For example, Portugal opened to US tourists two weeks earlier than planned  because they lost the Brits and are desperate.  
 

It’s not just the stops - it’s the home port so it’s the port fees, taxes, etc etc in addition to incremental spending from passengers on land. 
 

I’m not saying we’re holding a ‘trump card’ but there is an opportunity to influence even if it’s small. Obviously the calculus from Celebrity’s perspective is leading them to require masks, probably because they suspect Greece will relax the restrictions soon (cases are plummeting) and it’s not worth the fight.
 

Read back through these comments and see how many people who say they won’t cruise with mask restrictions. It’s a real issue.

 

Does Portugal not require masks? A lot of countries are "re-opening" for tourism, but are still requiring very strict covid prevention measures. Including countries that are much poorer than Greece and more reliant on tourism for income. Specifically we looked at possibly traveling to 5 countries this year. 1 would allow tourists in from the US but required them to quarantine for a week if vaccinated (2 weeks if not vaccinated). 1 still wouldn't allow tourists in. The other 3 are allowing tourists in with some combination of a negative covid test and/or vaccination. But I haven't seen anyone budging on mask requirements. 

 

These restrictions are here to say. And stating that because other countries NEED US TOURISTS who are not willing to wear masks when traveling, we shouldn't have to follow mask restrictions is unrealistic. People who truly want to travel will accept the restrictions they have. And I'm willing to bet they seem happy to lose travel income from people who won't.

[Moonarino]

3 hours ago, luckyinpa said:

 

i was in OC MD and 99% were maskless but what other people do doesnt bother me. i actually have the solution to world peace. dont worry about what others do /say. but no one listens to me. people still care about what some movie star says or what another forum member says and the fights start. its pathetic. people always having to be 'right'  and get the last word. 

 

in OC it was teens that were the most masked up. kinda surprised me. but PA is also now a free country and ive been enjoying it. no way am i gonna pay for a cruise where the rules literally change hour by hour. plus even when i search for the rules on a cruise site, i cannot easily find them. 

The bold part; I do wish more could think that way. The thing about "science" is that in fact it is pretty much never "settled" because science is a perpetually ever-reaching and ever-learning process. A further thing is that (bracing myself), regarding this exact topic, the NIH itself questioned the efficacy of masks a few months before covid hit (link) ... largely about cloth masks (especially washed and re-used) but the basis is meaningful ..... and here (aptly titled I'd say) which discusses how masks might actually aerosolize (and increase projection of) what would otherwise be pulled far more quickly to ground by gravity. There is a plethora of similar information al over the landscape. The large point being, can one view about masking be called "ridiculous" while another view is taken as "100% right"? I say absolutely not. I understand perfectly why so many people want to mask, and I understand perfectly why so many of us don't think it accomplishes much if anything at all.

 

Teens masking ... this, which I was led to from this ...

 

Grain of salt. What is "truth"? It all depends on who we ask. It should not, but it does.

[Lagranger36]

54 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

Does Portugal not require masks? A lot of countries are "re-opening" for tourism, but are still requiring very strict covid prevention measures. Including countries that are much poorer than Greece and more reliant on tourism for income. Specifically we looked at possibly traveling to 5 countries this year. 1 would allow tourists in from the US but required them to quarantine for a week if vaccinated (2 weeks if not vaccinated). 1 still wouldn't allow tourists in. The other 3 are allowing tourists in with some combination of a negative covid test and/or vaccination. But I haven't seen anyone budging on mask requirements. 

 

These restrictions are here to say. And stating that because other countries NEED US TOURISTS who are not willing to wear masks when traveling, we shouldn't have to follow mask restrictions is unrealistic. People who truly want to travel will accept the restrictions they have. And I'm willing to bet they seem happy to lose travel income from people who won't.

Again, the difference is that the ship is 100% vaccinated; it’s not analogous to any country right now, including EU nations with ~50% vax rates.
 

Of course we have to accept the restrictions; that doesn’t mean they aren’t worthy of scrutiny 

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, angelsil said:

I think the point being missed here is that some of us booked an Apex cruise when the policy wasn't in place and Celebrity's line was "fully (well 95%) vaccinated cruises; no masks required if vaccinated". In my case, I specifically chose not to sail out of Florida, even though it's really convenient, because I wanted that 95% vaccinated cruise. Of course things are going to evolve, but some of us feel like this is a bait and switch.

 

That the policy  Greece has had for months on land (which I 100% understand and will of course follow on shore) would also apply on a fully vaccinated cruise ship is something that Celebrity likely knew and didn't share with us. They should have, because I would not have booked this sailing and I'm sure I'm not alone. 

 

 

And there you have it!  They likely did know and it was a great marketing ploy to "imply" that the rules would be something they are not.  As I said last night, they got ahead of themselves and lost.  Instead of being angry with the Greek government, frustration should be directed at the source of the (ahem) confusion.  Celebrity Cruises.  

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

Does Portugal not require masks? A lot of countries are "re-opening" for tourism, but are still requiring very strict covid prevention measures. Including countries that are much poorer than Greece and more reliant on tourism for income. Specifically we looked at possibly traveling to 5 countries this year. 1 would allow tourists in from the US but required them to quarantine for a week if vaccinated (2 weeks if not vaccinated). 1 still wouldn't allow tourists in. The other 3 are allowing tourists in with some combination of a negative covid test and/or vaccination. But I haven't seen anyone budging on mask requirements. 

 

These restrictions are here to say. And stating that because other countries NEED US TOURISTS who are not willing to wear masks when traveling, we shouldn't have to follow mask restrictions is unrealistic. People who truly want to travel will accept the restrictions they have. And I'm willing to bet they seem happy to lose travel income from people who won't.

Well said.  Thank you.

[Lagranger36]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

And there you have it!  They likely did know and it was a great marketing ploy to "imply" that the rules would be something they are not.  As I said last night, they got ahead of themselves and lost.  Instead of being angry with the Greek government, frustration should be directed at the source of the (ahem) confusion.  Celebrity Cruises.  

You’re all over the place.  Was it not clear that the ire is directed at Celebrity not Greece?  Wow. 

[HSTeacher1]

Got a B2B booked for September that stops in Greece.

 

Very simply I won't go if I have to wear a mask.  If you want to go and wear a mask, good for you.  But I am done wearing them, I don't believe they do much good, and are nothing but theater for people that are vaccinated.

 

Would love to do a cruise this year, but if we can't I'll do something in a State here that doesn't require masks.

 

-Dan  

[harkinmr]

12 minutes ago, Lagranger36 said:

You’re all over the place.  Was it not clear that the ire is directed at Celebrity not Greece?  Wow. 

Wow.  You're all over the place. You have been pleading your case that the Greek government is being nonsensical and unreasonable in requiring masking indoors and outdoors on board a cruise ship and that somehow Celebrity could change that.  Looks like Celebrity stepped in it by declaring no mask protocols without government authorization. And clearly they're not going to be able to change it,  despite your "movement". Lol! 

Edited June 17, 2021 by harkinmr

[BigAl94]

14 minutes ago, HSTeacher1 said:

Got a B2B booked for September that stops in Greece.

 

Very simply I won't go if I have to wear a mask.  If you want to go and wear a mask, good for you.  But I am done wearing them, I don't believe they do much good, and are nothing but theater for people that are vaccinated.

 

Would love to do a cruise this year, but if we can't I'll do something in a State here that doesn't require masks.

 

-Dan  

 Please don't contemplate coming across the pond with an attitude like that.

[Lagranger36]

1 minute ago, BigAl94 said:

 Please don't contemplate coming across the pond with an attitude like that.

Lol.  An attitude that masks are pointless if you’re vaccinated?  That’s the public health consensus - is an attitude of following public health guidelines offensive to you? Or are masks just some sort of religion over across the pond? 

[HSTeacher1]

Just now, BigAl94 said:

 Please don't contemplate coming across the pond with an attitude like that.

What attitude?  and why the snarky response?  I very politely stated my opinion, and what I intend to do, and you make a quite rude and offensive comment, why?

 

Apparently people aren't allowed to have different opinions anymore?  And if they do they are to be ridiculed and belittled?   

[HSTeacher1]

1 minute ago, Lagranger36 said:

Lol.  An attitude that masks are pointless if you’re vaccinated?  That’s the public health consensus - is an attitude of following public health guidelines offensive to you? Or are masks just some sort of religion over across the pond? 

We have been preached to by our better for the last 16 months to follow the science, but now that the science says masks for vaccinated people are pointless we have moved on to personal attacks to coerce compliance.  

 

I have not worn a mask in a couple months, and I will not wear one with the exception of when I fly commercial (way too much for work).   And I only do that because of the law and I have to travel for work.  Not because it does a darn thing.

 

-Dan

[Denny01]

Since this thread has turned sooooo meany-mean (hope the hosts don’t remove this since i just used Navy cuss words!), I thought I’d add the worstest-worse I could think of:  

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Denny01

[Lagranger36]

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Wow.  You're all over the place. You have been pleading your case that the Greek government is being nonsensical and unreasonable in requiring masking indoors and outdoors on board a cruise ship and that somehow Celebrity could change that.  Looks like Celebrity stepped in it by declaring no mask protocols without government authorization. And clearly they're not going to be able to change it,  despite your "movement". Lol! 

I never said anything about the Greek gov and my initial frustration was clearly stated to be with the way Celebrity bait-and-switched on the policy.  My additional frustration is that Celebrity isn’t doing anything to fight the Greek policy. They absolutely can do something to influence it as they clearly have in other areas as stated by other posters 

[Lagranger36]

4 minutes ago, HSTeacher1 said:

We have been preached to by our better for the last 16 months to follow the science, but now that the science says masks for vaccinated people are pointless we have moved on to personal attacks to coerce compliance.  

 

I have not worn a mask in a couple months, and I will not wear one with the exception of when I fly commercial (way too much for work).   And I only do that because of the law and I have to travel for work.  Not because it does a darn thing.

 

-Dan

I’m with you 100%.  I wear it in the couple situations where it’s required and not otherwise.  

[Bruin Steve]

Let me pop back in here:

I have never objected to living with any local regulations while in any port.  I have fully expected, all along, to bring a mask and wear it while in port in any port that requires masks during any activity where those masks might be required.  I understand that everyone in these ports may NOT be vaccinated and the local authorities need to be able to take whatever measures necessary to control the virus.

 

However, I was also booked onto this cruise with the stated requirement that the ENTIRE crew AND every passenger over the age of 12 would be required to be fully vaccinated.  And anyone under the age of 12 would be required to wear masks on the ship, except while eating.  Personally, I would NOT take my children on a cruise in such times as these if they were NOT fully vaccinated.  I am willing to take risks myself as my wife and I have both been fully vaccinated since February and I have no fear of contracting the virus.  But I also figured that the number of children under 12 on these cruises should be FAR less than usual as some percentage of those with kids who may typically cruise would avoid these cruises.  And, anyone taking their under 12 kids was accepting the risk--however, with a ship almost entirely filled with vaccinated people, that risk would be way lower than even staying at home.

 

I also feel completely safe being fully vaccinated and on a ship with virtually 100% fully vaccinated others.  I do not believe that, while on the ship, I bear any risk of contracting Covid nor do I feel that I am in any risk of passing Covid on to others.  It is hard to understand where Greece has any interest in requiring masks onboard while the ship is not in a Greek port.

 

It is also disturbing that Celebrity keeps changing the rules--at least those rules that Celebrity appears to be in control of.  I would normally expect that, as time passes and more and more people are vaccinated and more and more jurisdictions are lessening such requirements that Celebrity's requirements would change--for the better, not the worse.

 

And these are not the only changes we are seeing.  We are also now being required to use Celebrity Shorexes only in some ports...and there are constant late changes to some of the shore excursions themselves...and never for the better.  This week we received a notification that our "Best of Mykonos" shorex would no longer have the "Folkloric Show".  I can understand that if the outfit providing the show is not performing due to Covid, but there is also no replacement activity announced and no change of price.  Even so, I am willing to accept it, it's not a major change.  However today, we were informed that our Pyrgos Village, Mezes and Wine excursion in Santorini will no longer include the cable car.  No explanation of how we get back to the ship--whether we are somehow required to just get back on a bus and be returned to the ship and day in Santorini over at 11:30...or do we get back to the ship somehow on our own?  Someone on our Roll Call actually found that the cable car IS actually operating.  But Celebrity told us it was Covid related???  There is really no excuse for not providing us with complete information...

 

And that's a bigger problem.  As to these changes on masks, Celebrity NEVER informed us--not by email, not by phone--that it made these changes to policy.  I only discovered it because I occasionally log on to the website and review such things.  But, what excuse is there for not notifying booked and paid-in-full passengers?

 

Again, no problem with Greece having its policies for anyone traveling within Greece--because Greece still has to deal with a lot of still unvaccinated citizens.  Here in California, we've lifted the mask requirements...largely because we've reached over 70% fully vaccinated.  But I can understand why we hadn't done that previously before numbers got to that point...so I can also understand why any other jurisdiction in that position would still have those requirements. 

 

I cannot understand why ANYONE, especially Celebrity, would want to have that mask requirement in an environment that should be close to 100% fully vaccinated.

 

It is harder to understand why Celebrity is not fully transparent in informing us:

1)  What changes to policy are occurring WHEN they occur.

2)  Complete information on shore excursions when changes are made

 

And again, I will live with almost anything I have to in order to cruise, but there are some things that will clearly detract from the cruise experience...and some of those things make little practical sense.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Bruin Steve

[yorky]

26 minutes ago, Lagranger36 said:

Lol.  An attitude that masks are pointless if you’re vaccinated?  That’s the public health consensus - is an attitude of following public health guidelines offensive to you? Or are masks just some sort of religion over across the pond? 

No, it’s required by law in many places unless you have an exemption. I can be sacked for refusing to wear one at work. My understanding is even two shots does not give 100% protection. We still have individuals admitted to hospitals who have been vaccinated. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by yorky

[Lagranger36]

10 minutes ago, yorky said:

No, it’s required by law in many places unless you have an exemption. I can be sacked for refusing to wear one at work. My understanding is even two shots does not give 100% protection. We still have individuals admitted to hospitals who have been vaccinated. 

Hundreds of thousands of people get hospitalized with the flu each year yet we’re not masking up for that. The R0 and lethality of COVID while fully vaccinated is lower than that of most strains of the flu.  We can’t eradicate the flu and we probably won’t eradicate COVID.

 

 At some point we need to accept a level of risk and move on from this. 

[harkinmr]

5 minutes ago, Lagranger36 said:

 

 At some point we need to accept a level of risk and move on from this. 

I don't disagree that as soon as we have reached an acceptable level of herd immunity in this country we will all have to move on from this.  But there may still be an unacceptable level of risk elsewhere in the world, and precautions and restrictions will continue whether we as Americans like it or not.  That we will have to be able to accept and live with as international travelers.

 

You have gone back and forth with a lot of posters here about masking protocols elsewhere in the world and how those protocols don't make sense or comply with US masking norms for fully vaccinated persons.  Then you want to travel to those other countries and impose US mores there, and somehow Celebrity is supposed to solve the conflict for you.  I don't think that is going to work well.  But, hey, best of luck with your campaign.  We'll be watching to see how it all turns out.

[Lagranger36]

19 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

I don't disagree that as soon as we have reached an acceptable level of herd immunity in this country we will all have to move on from this.  But there may still be an unacceptable level of risk elsewhere in the world, and precautions and restrictions will continue whether we as Americans like it or not.  That we will have to be able to accept and live with as international travelers.

 

You have gone back and forth with a lot of posters here about masking protocols elsewhere in the world and how those protocols don't make sense or comply with US masking norms for fully vaccinated persons.  Then you want to travel to those other countries and impose US mores there, and somehow Celebrity is supposed to solve the conflict for you.  I don't think that is going to work well.  But, hey, best of luck with your campaign.  We'll be watching to see how it all turns out.

Ever hear of “obligation to dissent?”  You see something nonsensical, you speak up.  That’s all this is, I don’t expect the rule to change. If we all did that we’d have a much better critical thinking apparatus in this country. 

[LGW59]

5 minutes ago, Lagranger36 said:

Ever hear of “obligation to dissent?”  You see something nonsensical, you speak up.  That’s all this is, I don’t expect the rule to change. If we all did that we’d have a much better critical thinking apparatus in this country. 

Nothing wrong with obligation to dissent.  But your obligation as a dissenting American means absolutely NOTHING in any other country in the world.

[Moonarino]

41 minutes ago, Lagranger36 said:

Hundreds of thousands of people get hospitalized with the flu each year yet we’re not masking up for that. The R0 and lethality of COVID while fully vaccinated is lower than that of most strains of the flu.  We can’t eradicate the flu and we probably won’t eradicate COVID.

 

 At some point we need to accept a level of risk and move on from this. 

I was gonna mention R0 the other day but figured it was too complicated. That number has of course gone way down with vaccinations. Across the UK it was estimately recently at around 0.6 to 0.9. (They don't want to talk about R0 here in the USA do they?) At any rate, I concur completely. Never ever gonna have perfection, regardless how hard some might demand it.

[Fouremco]

48 minutes ago, Lagranger36 said:

Hundreds of thousands of people get hospitalized with the flu each year yet we’re not masking up for that.

Well, maybe we should. A lot of people are considering doing so after the large reduction in flu, colds and other diseases this past winter in areas that required masks.