Judge Denied CDC request to keep Covid-19 Cruising restrictions.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Babr said:

You don’t seem to be taking into account that testing is required for international travel. Cruise ships go to other countries that have their own policies for admitting travelers.

 

International flights do require testing. If there are busses and trains that cross borders, I expect testing is also required.  
 

I don’t know that cruise ships are being singled out in that regard. They are subject to other regulations because people eat, sleep, and mingle in the confines of a ship for several days while also going ashore and mingling with locals.

Surely you can see the difference.

Unfortunately, that is the problem that some people cannot see the difference. 

[sailingships]

2 hours ago, Babr said:

I don’t know that cruise ships are being singled out in that regard. They are subject to other regulations because people eat, sleep, and mingle in the confines of a ship for several days while also going ashore and mingling with locals.

Surely you can see the difference.

Exactly There is a difference Everyone on the planes etc are tested.. Why arent the vaccinated required to at least have the PCR test within 72 hours of cruising like the unvaccinated have to? It is only the vaccinated who are freely going ashore and mingling with the locals. But before that, they could come onboard with the virus. Vaccinated people are getting the virus and spreading it. It's careless to overlook 95% of the passengers just because they are vaccinated and practically demand that 5% jump through hoops in order to be allowed to cruise. 

[cruisingguy007]

3 minutes ago, sailingships said:

Exactly There is a difference Everyone on the planes etc are tested.. Why arent the vaccinated required to at least have the PCR test within 72 hours of cruising like the unvaccinated have to? It is only the vaccinated who are freely going ashore and mingling with the locals. But before that, they could come onboard with the virus. Vaccinated people are getting the virus and spreading it. It's careless to overlook 95% of the passengers just because they are vaccinated and practically demand that 5% jump through hoops in order to be allowed to cruise. 

 

Not IMO. I think it's great. Following the science and rewarding the vaccinated makes sense. Per CDC guidelines, vaccinated don't need testing unless they have symptoms. The good news is that the vaccine is free and available to everyone 12+ free of charge. Anyone can join the club, it's not exclusive. 

[stellarose]

https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/expert-unvaccinated-cruisers-should-just-wait-as-carnival-backs-95-passenger-vaccination-rate.html

 

[cruisingguy007]

22 minutes ago, ScottsSweetie said:

Has any week long cruise ship had 8 or 9 positives coming off of the ship?

 

Not that I'm aware of. There is a number established though for maximum acceptability and as long as the lines keep doing nearly all vaccinated cruises, I don't see them coming anywhere close to that number unless one of the new weekly variants (or an undiscovered one) renders the vaccine nearly ineffective. Luckily, the vaccines still provide robust protection for all known variants but that protection seems to be waning a bit with regard to delta. 

 

If the vaccines hold up, there is no need for testing of vaccinated cruisers unless they present with symptoms to medical staff. Hopefully, if any do happen to catch a mild or asymptomatic case, they will be disembarking by the time that happens and/or they won't need to present. Keeping the protocols and keeping it moving is best for the lines. The less testing the better. If they had no unvaccinated passengers, they could nearly do away with testing entirely.    

Edited July 20, 2021 by cruisingguy007

[Babr]

31 minutes ago, ScottsSweetie said:

My DH has dealt with the CDC professionally over the last 25 years. The CDC is most definitely a political body, and it didn't start 4 years ago. 😏

And I'm convinced that this is part of combatting vaccine hesitancy.

 

I'd also like to point out that we just had an event whereby several politicians traveled by air, without masks, for a 2 or 3 hour flight and then had meetings where Covid was passed around to several vaxxed people (now I think up to 8 or 9 total including staffers in Washington). Has any week long cruise ship had 8 or 9 positives coming off of the ship?

None of the politicians were positive when they got off the plane. They were tested days later, and the others were discovered through contact tracing.

 

So the answer to you question is that we don’t know how many people on a cruise ship took Covid home with them when they got off the plane and had been home for a couple of days. No reporting or contact tracing.

[jimbo5544]

15 hours ago, Babr said:

Semantics. Testing was required to get on the flight to the destination requiring it. Not required for domestic travel.

 

Now, how else is a cruise ship different from an airplane. See my previous post.

Easy, name an airline shut down for 14 months.  You call it semantics, fact is that it rrally is the destination….not the airline.   They have no such requirement.  

[Babr]

7 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Easy, name an airline shut down for 14 months.  You call it semantics, fact is that it rrally is the destination….not the airline.   They have no such requirement.  

Destination - sure. Where do you think cruise ships are going?

 

We’ve already discussed the obvious differences between air lines and cruise ships. Could it be that air lines provide essential travel while cruise ships provide discretionary vacations?

 

 

[ontheweb]

13 hours ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

Not IMO. I think it's great. Following the science and rewarding the vaccinated makes sense. Per CDC guidelines, vaccinated don't need testing unless they have symptoms. The good news is that the vaccine is free and available to everyone 12+ free of charge. Anyone can join the club, it's not exclusive. 

And it's another incentive to get vaccinated, you can generally go unmasked. 

 

We recently vacationed in Boston. And I found that now being used to being unmasked except in rare occurrences, how much I hated it when we had to mask up for the airline terminals, the airplane itself, the subway station, the subway, and some attractions that required it (such as the Paul Revere House).

[jimbo5544]

8 minutes ago, Babr said:

Destination - sure. Where do you think cruise ships are going?

 

We’ve already discussed the obvious differences between air lines and cruise ships. Could it be that air lines provide essential travel while cruise ships provide discretionary vacations?

 

 

Last post here and I will move on.  You asked the question on differences and I answered.  The facts are that the CDC targeting cruising and over stepped.  Cruising resumed back in August last year with a remarkable record (mostly pre vaccine).  For that, they should exulted, not vilified. Now the CDC, that is a different question.

[jimbo5544]

4 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And it's another incentive to get vaccinated, you can generally go unmasked. 

 

We recently vacationed in Boston. And I found that now being used to being unmasked except in rare occurrences, how much I hated it when we had to mask up for the airline terminals, the airplane itself, the subway station, the subway, and some attractions that required it (such as the Paul Revere House).

We agree, vaccination is the key to the door to beyond covid.  I fear masking has been hammered into the American public so hard, that for some, it will never leave.  

Edited July 21, 2021 by jimbo5544

[ontheweb]

3 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

We agree, vaccination is the key to the door to beyond covid.  I fear masking has been hammered into the American public so hard, that for some, it will never leave.  

LOL, at one point in Boston while we were walking somewhere, DW was wearing a mask. When I asked her why she was basically using it instead of sunscreen.

[jimbo5544]

4 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

LOL, at one point in Boston while we were walking somewhere, DW was wearing a mask. When I asked her why she was basically using it instead of sunscreen.

New lip balm….love it

[Tippyton]

26 minutes ago, Babr said:

Destination - sure. Where do you think cruise ships are going?

 

We’ve already discussed the obvious differences between air lines and cruise ships. Could it be that air lines provide essential travel while cruise ships provide discretionary vacations?

 

 

The government is in no business picking winners and losers.

 

- The Forgotten 20

[kdr69]

1 hour ago, Babr said:

We’ve already discussed the obvious differences between air lines and cruise ships. Could it be that air lines provide essential travel while cruise ships provide discretionary vacations?

Sure they provide essential travel big whoop.  That like applies to what? The 3 or 4 people out of the 200 or so people on a plane?  If that was the excuse for keeping air travel open then they should have been mandated to ONLY fly those people that absolutely required it.  People are quick to point out that only 1 or two people might catch COVID on a plane so its not as big a spreader as a cruise ship.  I like to point out that it only took 1 case of COVID getting on a plane to end up where we are now 341 million cases later.

[cruisingguy007]

2 hours ago, kdr69 said:

Sure they provide essential travel big whoop.  That like applies to what? The 3 or 4 people out of the 200 or so people on a plane?  If that was the excuse for keeping air travel open then they should have been mandated to ONLY fly those people that absolutely required it.  People are quick to point out that only 1 or two people might catch COVID on a plane so its not as big a spreader as a cruise ship.  I like to point out that it only took 1 case of COVID getting on a plane to end up where we are now 341 million cases later.

 

I'm not sure what point folks are arguing on this. It's brought up again and again and I'm just trying to figure it out. Is it that cruises aren't regulated enough and folks want to see them treated like airlines with a FAA equivalent, binders and binders of regulations, DOT oversight, masking and all the stuff that comes from common transportation carriers? Or that common transportation carriers should be less regulated like cruise ships with a mask carve out and a lot less regulation, even during a pandemic, and nearly exempt (comparatively) during regular non-pandemic operations?

 

All I see when folks make these false equivalences is an example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. I just don't understand the point or even the logic, the comparative idealism sure, but even the lines don't want to be treated as common carriers. Am I missing the point beyond idealistic fairness? On it's face it seems like a good argument but once you get down to brass tacks, that fantasy falls flat on its face and seems to be nothing more than pouting without purpose.         

Edited July 21, 2021 by cruisingguy007

[ProgRockCruiser]

1 minute ago, cruisingguy007 said:

Is it that cruises aren't regulated enough and folks want to see them treated like airlines with a FAA equivalent, binders and binders of regulations, DOT oversight, masking and all the stuff that comes from common transportation carriers?

To enter US waters and service US ports, the cruise lines are heavily regulated with much that is similar for airlines, for example.  And some stuff that goes beyond what an airline may have to deal with (e.g. food sanitation, pollution controls, etc).

 

Cruise lines were "singled out" in comparison to other international forms of transportation because (pick one or multiple):

 

1. They are 100% optional pleasure-based activities.

2. If something goes wrong, contagion-wise, it could be several days before being able to return to home port, which gives things a good chance to go even further awry.

3. The media would relish the sensational headlines about the "petri dishes" even for a minor outbreak, but especially if #2 happens.

4. Although many/all are US-based for operations, they are Corporations that are registered off-shore, and the vast majority of their employees are "foreigners" (i.e. not a voting base).

 

Or, because the CDC hates the cruise industry and wants it to die.  (Not my opinion, but it appears to be a not-uncommon one around here).

[kdr69]

7 minutes ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

I'm not sure what point folks are arguing on this. It's brought up again and again and I'm just trying to figure it out. Is it that cruises aren't regulated enough and folks want to see them treated like airlines with a FAA equivalent, binders and binders of regulations, DOT oversight, masking and all the stuff that comes from common transportation carriers? Or that common transportation carriers should be less regulated like cruise ships with a mask carve out and a lot less regulation, even during a pandemic, and nearly exempt (comparatively) during regular non-pandemic operations?

 

All I see when folks make these false equivalences is an example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. I just don't understand the point or even the logic, the comparative idealism sure, but even the lines don't want to be treated as common carriers. Am I missing the point beyond idealistic fairness? On it's face it seems like a good argument but once you get down to brass tacks, that fantasy falls flat on its face and seems to be nothing more than pouting without purpose.         

My point was that the narrative keeps focusing on Airlines providing an essential service without acknowledging that they werent mandated to ONLY provide for essential travel during this Pandemic but instead were open to everyone not just essential travellers who would make up an extremely small percentage of an Airplanes passenger count thereby negating the argument that Airlines dont spread COVID as much as a cruise ship would.  COVID did not spread by cruise ship in the beginning but by Air Travel.  Im not arguing the fact that Cruise Travel isnt essential travel just that the definition of an essential traveller was not applied to Airlines in the same way it was applied to Cruise Lines. 

[vacruisin]

5 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

My point was that the narrative keeps focusing on Airlines providing an essential service without acknowledging that they werent mandated to ONLY provide for essential travel during this Pandemic but instead were open to everyone not just essential travellers who would make up an extremely small percentage of an Airplanes passenger count thereby negating the argument that Airlines dont spread COVID as much as a cruise ship would.  COVID did not spread by cruise ship in the beginning but by Air Travel.  Im not arguing the fact that Cruise Travel isnt essential travel just that the definition of an essential traveller was not applied to Airlines in the same way it was applied to Cruise Lines. 

Well that is because it's pretty obvious which people on a cruise ship are not on "Essential travel"  That would be ALL passengers.  On the contrary, how could you accurately determine which air travelers are doing it for work as opposed to for pleasure?  

 

[kdr69]

Just now, vacruisin said:

Well that is because it's pretty obvious which people on a cruise ship are not on "Essential travel"  That would be ALL passengers.  On the contrary, how could you accurately determine which air travelers are doing it for work as opposed to for pleasure?  

 

Same way i had to and that was carry a letter from my company identifying me as an employee providing an essential service which required travel to perform my duties.

[ProgRockCruiser]

4 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

Same way i had to and that was carry a letter from my company identifying me as an employee providing an essential service which required travel to perform my duties.

And that works fine at international borders where you have to present all kinds of other forms and ID usually, but it would be a nightmare for domestic travel (in the US).

 

All travel I arranged for my teams from March 2020 through about June 2021 had to have various exemption letters/paperwork, often from the employer (my company), the US Gov't organization we were supporting, and the foreign country.

 

There is no way that would have worked for people traveling from Chicago to Seattle (for example).  It simply wouldn't have been acceptable to the US public.

[vacruisin]

3 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

Same way i had to and that was carry a letter from my company identifying me as an employee providing an essential service which required travel to perform my duties.

Okay...there are ways around that pretty easily.

 

Also, IMHO, the CDC determined that airlines are a lot more essential to the country post-COVID than cruise lines.  If multiple airlines were forced to shut down all this time, resulting in many airlines going under, that would be much worst for the country post-COVID than losing cruise lines.  As much as I love cruising, if I HAD to make the hard decision on which travel to restrict the most, I'd choose cruises over air travel.  Which is more essential?

[kdr69]

1 minute ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

And that works fine at international borders where you have to present all kinds of other forms and ID usually, but it would be a nightmare for domestic travel (in the US).

 

All travel I arranged for my teams from March 2020 through about June 2021 had to have various exemption letters/paperwork, often from the employer (my company), the US Gov't organization we were supporting, and the foreign country.

 

There is no way that would have worked for people traveling from Chicago to Seattle (for example).  It simply wouldn't have been acceptable to the US public.

I dont disagree sorry i should have identified i was only referring to international travel which was the main spreader of the virus.

[cruisingguy007]

7 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

Same way i had to and that was carry a letter from my company identifying me as an employee providing an essential service which required travel to perform my duties.

 

The definitions were so broad that nearly everyone qualified as an essential worker. A lot of folks also printed/manufactured those letters too..lol. So much so that they quit asking for them when they started the covid vaccine shots for essential workers. Anyone with a printer could be an essential worker..lol. 

[cruisingguy007]

3 minutes ago, vacruisin said:

Okay...there are ways around that pretty easily.

 

Also, IMHO, the CDC determined that airlines are a lot more essential to the country post-COVID than cruise lines.  If multiple airlines were forced to shut down all this time, resulting in many airlines going under, that would be much worst for the country post-COVID than losing cruise lines.  As much as I love cruising, if I HAD to make the hard decision on which travel to restrict the most, I'd choose cruises over air travel.  Which is more essential?

 

Lots of Americans who work for the airlines would agree with you. It's a big industry.