Judge Denied CDC request to keep Covid-19 Cruising restrictions.

[MrMarc]

19 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

So the people who got sick, it was their fault?

Some of them yes, others no.  Masks and distancing are far from perfect, but in my opinion, the spread was greatly increased by people not following the guidelines.   But before you ask, no, I cannot show a study that proves this.  It is simply my opinion based on observations of people, like many posting in these blogs, on Facebook and various videos and other information I have seen or heard, logic and common sense.

[jimbo5544]

5 minutes ago, rs45thompson said:

No need- I saw the interviews, the conferences he held with the cruiselines  and I believe the Mayor was involved too.  But if an industry doesn't know they are in charge of something - of course they aren't going to do anything because they aren't aware they are suppose to.  I think that it was terrible on her part that she didn't know what her agency was in charge of and it made her look incompetent. In saying that she was new to the job and was taking over in the middle of a pandemic.  

 

As long as we are finally cruising thats all that matters.

I agree on the last line.  Now, the cruise lines will show they have the mettle to keep it that way.  I was happy to see Celebrity put two non vaccinated rules breakers for busting the excursion bubble ashore.  Shows the cruise lines are taking it seriously.

[rs45thompson]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

I agree on the last line.  Now, the cruise lines will show they have the mettle to keep it that way.  I was happy to see Celebrity put two non vaccinated rules breakers for busting the excursion bubble ashore.  Shows the cruise lines are taking it seriously.

I was worried that they wouldn't enforce the rules, glad to see they are.

[jimbo5544]

3 minutes ago, rs45thompson said:

I was worried that they wouldn't enforce the rules, glad to see they are.

Their is a LOT at stake here.  Their livelihood is certainly at risk, I for one, have great confidence they will succeed. We all win if they do.

[MrMarc]

22 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

The countries had used draconian measures to lock in people had as much spread as those that did not.  Countries and states that did not imprison citizens had less suicides, fewer overdoses, less domestic violence incidents, keep their economies running. There are studies showing masks do not work to prevent the spread and there is  no evidence of spread from outdoor events.  And this "rules" certainly weren't applied across the board.. want to watch a baseball game?  Nope, not allowed.  Want to riot in the street..no problem.  I haven't seen the CDC do its job keeping COVID from crossing the southern border, not a peep

I understand,  I heard it all summer.  The events some people liked did not spread COVID, while events they did not like did.  No need for consistency from either side.  We will never know what would have happened if we had actually acted like a civilized community and only had one side.  The CDC has been unable to act without polotical intervention and pressure.  We will never know what would have happened if they had been able to concentrate on the real problem.  I know, you are going to say how bad and stupid they are.  That's because half the population are now expert epidemiologist, geneticists,  doctors, research scientists, and many other fields where you used to actually go to school to learn such things, until the internet and Facebook made such things totally unnecessary.

[hurricane0226]

Desantis, what a great Governor we have, he looked out for us in Florida, 

[Ellaleah]

4 minutes ago, hurricane0226 said:

Desantis, what a great Governor we have, he looked out for us in Florida, 

I hope this is a joke!  It certainly sounds like one!

[cruisingguy007]

3 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

No.  It means the cruise lines can use the CDC recommendations as guidance, just like the airlines, public transportation and businesses all across the US.  The cruise lines are businesses that are perfectly capable of running cruises just like amusement parks, hotels, restaurants, and every other business that has been permitted to open.  People who are fearful of cruising should wait it out.

 

Not even close. The CDC protocols are not even 1/10 of the airlines requirements. That's absurd. There are so many regulations that keep airlines safe and tons of public transportation rules. What you're talking about (freedom to self regulate) would be more akin to some rinky-dink airline (think Lion Air),  with no maintenance records, no records on pilots and a paper trail that is laughable. You take for granted the same oversight you despise.    

[cruisingguy007]

6 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

The protocols are working?  That is like staying masks and "social distance" work.  No, they didn't .  You just didn't come into close enough or prolonged contact with someone infectious. 

 

Read what you posted. Does it make sense to you? It's like saying seat-belts don't work because someone who wore one died in a car accident. Or a person on a motorcycle died with a helmet on, so it must not work or be effective. Odds are odds, feelings are feelings. 

[Elaine5715]

9 hours ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

Read what you posted. Does it make sense to you? It's like saying seat-belts don't work because someone who wore one died in a car accident. Or a person on a motorcycle died with a helmet on, so it must not work or be effective. Odds are odds, feelings are feelings. 

Everyone who got COVID came into contact with the virus.  That is a fact.  The virus is carried by people.  That is a fact.  Not one non infected person shed one COVID virus, not one.  That is fact.

Using your example, the COVID rulers would ban us from driving and riding motorcycles to prevent all accidents. 

[cruisingguy007]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

Everyone who got COVID came into contact with the virus.  That is a fact.  The virus is carried by people.  That is a fact.  Not one non infected person shed one COVID virus, not one.  That is fact.

Using your example, the COVID rulers would ban us from driving and riding motorcycles to prevent all accidents. 

 

So no one should wear seat belts is what you are saying? Or helmets either? Your position makes zero sense.  

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

So no one should wear seat belts is what you are saying? Or helmets either? Your position makes zero sense.  

Yes, that is what I said.  No one should ever ride motorcycles or ride in a car.

[Joebucks]

On 7/10/2021 at 9:14 PM, MrMarc said:

Exactly what facts do you dispute?  Sometimes common sense and observation can lead you to a conclusion without the need for a scientific study to back up every idea.  We never actually had a secure lockdown anywhere in this country, our society encourages people not to follow rules, especially when there is no one watching to enforce them, that we don't like or inconveniences us (up to a point), it seems to be in our DNA.  And you are totally misinterpreting what I said in relation to cruises.  It is the new way to avoid obvious observations.   Where is your study to prove I'm wrong.  There isn't one, you just disagree with me.  That's fine, but the lack of a scientific study to prove or disprove things that are obvious is getting old.  Your suggestion is one way to approaching the problem, and it might work.  But in my opinion, given the possible outcomes of being wrong, it makes more sense to start off overly cautious and walk things back rather than the other way around.

 

All along, we thought we were doing well as we scrubbed every surface and reduced droplet spread from masks. Then we learned the virus was actually in aerosol form. Coincidentally at that time, the mask mandate quietly went away. We quietly moved the goalposts for science. Mask mandates stayed as a punishment/mark of shame if you weren't vaccinated or if you wanted to virtue signal. Or for planes because outdated government policy rules there for now. COVID surged with the mask mandate. COVID is falling without it. Yet our marker that it worked is what? Bill Nye did a video to show what a mask does so it just HAS to be effective?

 

The real unsung hero is air circulation/filtration. This is largely why Florida was able to stay about mid-pack while almost being lawless at times. Lots of open bars and outdoor activities. Yet "responsible places" like NYC surged as people crammed indoor spaces with aerosol particulates not being stopped by cloth. It's a weird post to hang your hat on by saying masks proved to be effective. 

[MrMarc]

On 7/12/2021 at 6:55 PM, Joebucks said:

 

All along, we thought we were doing well as we scrubbed every surface and reduced droplet spread from masks. Then we learned the virus was actually in aerosol form. Coincidentally at that time, the mask mandate quietly went away. We quietly moved the goalposts for science. Mask mandates stayed as a punishment/mark of shame if you weren't vaccinated or if you wanted to virtue signal. Or for planes because outdated government policy rules there for now. COVID surged with the mask mandate. COVID is falling without it. Yet our marker that it worked is what? Bill Nye did a video to show what a mask does so it just HAS to be effective?

 

The real unsung hero is air circulation/filtration. This is largely why Florida was able to stay about mid-pack while almost being lawless at times. Lots of open bars and outdoor activities. Yet "responsible places" like NYC surged as people crammed indoor spaces with aerosol particulates not being stopped by cloth. It's a weird post to hang your hat on by saying masks proved to be effective. 

It's even weirder to say they are ineffective.  There have not been any really valid studies on them, so why not just use common sense.  There is no way to deny that a mask reduces the amount and velocity of whatever you are exhaling (well you are, but it actually does), nor can you deny that when you inhale the air is coming from a little wider area, with some (probably very small unless you are wearing a properly fitted N-94) amount of filtration.  Whatever escapes being stopped by the mask is traveling at a lower velocity after going through it, and therefore is not traveling as far.  You don't need a scientific study to know that.  That will reduce the chances of people spreading a virus that is spread when they exhale, especially when added to social distancing..  However, it doesn't take a lot of people not following the protocol to counteract the wearing of masks.  We have no idea what would have happened if no one wore masks, anyone that claims they do is making it up.  To me the real question has always been why aren't people trying to err on the side of safety instead of turning it into a pointless political sideshow by acting like it is some great unbearable thing to wear a mask.  But absolutely, air circulation and filtration is a great way to prevent it from spreading also, and I don;t need any study to prove that to me.  And in fact, that is part of the CDC guidelines.  Why should we choose on or the other?  Do both and stop the drama.

[MrMarc]

On 7/11/2021 at 11:01 AM, Elaine5715 said:

Everyone who got COVID came into contact with the virus.  That is a fact.  The virus is carried by people.  That is a fact.  Not one non infected person shed one COVID virus, not one.  That is fact.

Using your example, the COVID rulers would ban us from driving and riding motorcycles to prevent all accidents. 

I totally disagree.  While 0 cases would be amazing, the idea is the same as with seatbelts and helmets.  Do what you can to reduce the chances of injury.  But many of the same people that do not want seatbelt or helmet laws are fighting the efforts to contain this virus, and I totally understand the correlation.  Each of these requirements is governmental infringement into an individual's rights, and I agree that such things can go too far.  The real difference to me is that seatbelts and helmets only protect the one using or not using them.  Not getting vaccinated or following COVID protocols has affects on everyone you come in to contact with, and when it results in a new variant, the entire world.  So to me, the COVID rules are far more justified than the seatbelt and helmet laws, with the only similarity being the argument of the consequences having to be dealt with by the health care system.  Basically this Judge, and many people, are complaining that the CDC is being too cautious, while many of us believe that overly cautious is a good thing until the spread is either stopped, or we more fully understand the virus and it's consequences.  Right now, that is information that is not known, despite some people's claims that it is.

Edited July 16, 2021 by MrMarc

[MrMarc]

One more thought.  Let's assume masks are totally useless, but make a significant portion of the people around us feel more comfortable, even if they are wrong.  For the short term I am willing to do it, if only as a courtesy to the people around me.  Sort of like holding a door open or other such things.  No one has to do it, but it is a nice thing to do.  I have never understood the drama so many people are making about wearing a mask, but then again there are people creating drama about almost everything these days.  It's just the times we live in.  It seems like we need the drama so that we don't do something crazy like compromise or even listen to each other anymore. 

[Elaine5715]

8 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I totally disagree.  While 0 cases would be amazing, the idea is the same as with seatbelts and helmets.  Do what you can to reduce the chances of injury.  But many of the same people that do not want seatbelt or helmet laws are fighting the efforts to contain this virus, and I totally understand the correlation.  Each of these requirements is governmental infringement into an individual's rights, and I agree that such things can go too far.  The real difference to me is that seatbelts and helmets only protect the one using or not using them.  Not getting vaccinated or following COVID protocols has affects on everyone you come in to contact with, and when it results in a new variant, the entire world.  So to me, the COVID rules are far more justified than the seatbelt and helmet laws, with the only similarity being the argument of the consequences having to be dealt with by the health care system.  Basically this Judge, and many people, are complaining that the CDC is being too cautious, while many of us believe that overly cautious is a good thing until the spread is either stopped, or we more fully understand the virus and it's consequences.  Right now, that is information that is not known, despite some people's claims that it is.

There are many vaccine preventable diseases with a much higher death rare that we know exactly how they are transmitted (influenzas, polio, small pox, mumps, measles, hepatitis A/B/C, whooping cough,  rubella ) yet the government has not imposed restrictions of movement or even screenings at border crossings.  There are other transmittable diseases without cures that would bring the wrath of social media if one should suggest personal behavior choices impacted the spread.  

Simply looking around at the public in public, it has always been clear that the "COVID rules" are not followed and since they aren't followed, to give any credit that they worked is nonsense.  

[Elaine5715]

7 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

One more thought.  Let's assume masks are totally useless, but make a significant portion of the people around us feel more comfortable, even if they are wrong.  For the short term I am willing to do it, if only as a courtesy to the people around me.  Sort of like holding a door open or other such things.  No one has to do it, but it is a nice thing to do.  I have never understood the drama so many people are making about wearing a mask, but then again there are people creating drama about almost everything these days.  It's just the times we live in.  It seems like we need the drama so that we don't do something crazy like compromise or even listen to each other anymore. 

Feelings aren't facts.  If people are basing their emotional health on what a stranger does or doesn't do, COVID is the least of their worries.  What next?  If you glance at someone when remembering an unpleasant experience or recent sad news, are you responsible for how they decide to interpret  your facial expression?  

[BlerkOne]

A good reason to wear a mask!

[MrMarc]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

Feelings aren't facts.  If people are basing their emotional health on what a stranger does or doesn't do, COVID is the least of their worries.  What next?  If you glance at someone when remembering an unpleasant experience or recent sad news, are you responsible for how they decide to interpret  your facial expression?  

I understand exactly what you mean.  But because I  recognize it as a situation that none of us has ever had to deal with.  Therefore we might have to do things that we normally would not.  Because it is such a unique situation,  I don't see it as a step down any slippery slope, but I understand the fear that it might be.  I  think the better approach would be to understand it is different and would choose to "fight" at actions not related to it.

[MrMarc]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

There are many vaccine preventable diseases with a much higher death rare that we know exactly how they are transmitted (influenzas, polio, small pox, mumps, measles, hepatitis A/B/C, whooping cough,  rubella ) yet the government has not imposed restrictions of movement or even screenings at border crossings.  There are other transmittable diseases without cures that would bring the wrath of social media if one should suggest personal behavior choices impacted the spread.  

Simply looking around at the public in public, it has always been clear that the "COVID rules" are not followed and since they aren't followed, to give any credit that they worked is nonsense.  

It is equally nonsense to say they didn't,  we can never know.  The fact that so many people didn't follow such simple rules is the real nonsense.  The fact that many people were/are acting because of political feelings is beyond nonsense.  But here we are.  Should we just throw up our hands in defeat, or continue to try and actually solve the issue instead of trying to ignore it?

[MrMarc]

The real nonsense is any of us thinking we can change anyone's mind, but what the heck, it's worth a try anyway.

[Elaine5715]

1 minute ago, MrMarc said:

It is equally nonsense to say they didn't,  we can never know.  The fact that so many people didn't follow such simple rules is the real nonsense.  The fact that many people were/are acting because of political feelings is beyond nonsense.  But here we are.  Should we just throw up our hands in defeat, or continue to try and actually solve the issue instead of trying to ignore it?

Doing useless tasks to attempt control a virus and than blaming people for incorrectly performing such tasks is nonsense.  Keeping instructions to wash your hands frequently and stay home if you are sick would have made more sense.  

[MrMarc]

5 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Doing useless tasks to attempt control a virus and than blaming people for incorrectly performing such tasks is nonsense.  Keeping instructions to wash your hands frequently and stay home if you are sick would have made more sense.  

It would make sense if everyone did that second part without being told.  As for the first part, we are just going to have to disagree.  

[TNcruising02]

9 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Doing useless tasks to attempt control a virus and than blaming people for incorrectly performing such tasks is nonsense.  Keeping instructions to wash your hands frequently and stay home if you are sick would have made more sense.  

I agree.  High risk people could have isolated until a vaccine.  People could have washed their hands and stayed home if they were sick.  It's ridiculous to think that the flimsy masks that many people wore incorrectly, removed and touched constantly, and hardly ever washed did anything to stop a virus that went right through the masks.  People in lockdown states with strict mask mandates still got covid.  What a false sense of security those mask mandates gave to vulnerable people when they really should have socially distanced. The false sense of security did more harm than good to high risk people.

Edited July 16, 2021 by TNcruising02