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My review: Watch out RCL and NCL, Carnival is coming after your loyal guests!


tx121
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8 hours ago, Pellaz said:

 

...

 

 

It now carries a flat-fee service charge on Royal, with some exceptions.  

Although suite guests were supposedly waived the service charge ($7 I think), WE were charged the fee.  Since it was a charter, suite guests did not get any perks or concierge services.  Two, count 'em, TWO cheers for Royal.  😞 

 

On both of our Mardi Gras sailings (Excel suites) we were supposed to receive no charge room service (normally extra cost items). Both times (August and November) we were charged. When I brought that to the attention of the GSM in November, he said it was a "known issue", and that they'd have to manually remove the charges. Frankly, I never bothered to check back - but I'd wager that I ended up paying for room service...

 

Tom

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I agree with the comment posted earlier that the major lines are more similar than they are different, overall. That said, after many cruises on NCL, Royal, Carnival - and gasp, MSC (Yacht Club), I would say Carnival is still my favorite because of the vibe and the food. We rarely if ever go to the buffet. The MDR, variety of free fast-food choices, and specialty restaurants are what we like. And per the vibe ... minus some of the contests at the main pool during the day, it's a fun yet classy one. There are a lot of snobs that would call it trashy, but I would call those people and their vibe, boring. 😀

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16 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

VV is a niche, and will never go beyond that in its current form. Everyone says they want the included foods and whatnot that VV offers, but they want it all at the Carnival price. Mardi Gras is toying with that idea.

 

I would love if Carnival did pull a few pieces from them. The Limelight Lounge for example, if a lifeless, shell of a nightclub. Doing nothing special for the younger crowd that wants it. Meanwhile, people can't wait to Instagram the VV club, showing off how cool it is. It wouldn't take an act of god for Carnival to add that "cool" factor.

 

The in your face drag shows and tattoo parlors aren't going to a sway a large enough market. Especially one that will stay loyal to cruising.

We were on Scarlet Lady in November.  Never once did we see a drag show.  And you actually wouldn't notice the tattoo parlor unless you were looking for it (though I admit, it's a weird addition)...

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18 hours ago, firefly333 said:

To the guy who said he thought rcl looked at him oddly when he ordered a 2nd entree.

 

Why hello there!  That was ME!  

 

18 hours ago, firefly333 said:

Ours were slamming us with extras. I got 3 lobsters last week I didnt order or want. They sat down cheese plate and fruit plates not ordered. I thought too much service and was tired of being asked if I want anything.

 

I wish I knew if his sour attitude was because the cruise was a full-boat music charter, or just "him."  My other experiences in Royal's MDR were...okay, although I never thought the food exceeded Carnival's MDR offerings at any time over the six sailings I've done on that Royal charter.  

Only the bottom floor (of three) in Royal's MDR was open, and it was open seating during dinner for all.  They make some other changes, too, including setting up some tables in a certain...prurient...way best not described on a family forum.  As our server on another night said with gusto when he saw the tables set up, "Aha, here come the 'Vikings'!"   😄       

 

The middle level of the MDR was reserved for performers' merchandise sales, and the top level was left vacant or used for table and chair storage.   This is on Freedom-class ships (specifically the Liberty in 2015 and the Independence from 2016-2020).  

 

18 hours ago, firefly333 said:

Neither will put the other out of business. 

 

lol, nope.  Maybe MSC will sweep in and buy out one or the other...or both.  🙂  

 

14 hours ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

On both of our Mardi Gras sailings (Excel suites) we were supposed to receive no charge room service (normally extra cost items). Both times (August and November) we were charged. When I brought that to the attention of the GSM in November, he said it was a "known issue", and that they'd have to manually remove the charges. Frankly, I never bothered to check back - but I'd wager that I ended up paying for room service...

 

Hope not.  

 

Hmm, I'll have to ask my friends Todd and Ashley if they were charged for room-service, as they also had an Excel suite (aft, starboard side).  Room accommodates only two, but there was room for 11 people to sit or recline on that balcony...not including the jacuzzi tub.  😮  

 

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8 minutes ago, Pellaz said:

 

Why hello there!  That was ME!  

 

 

I wish I knew if his sour attitude was because the cruise was a full-boat music charter, or just "him."  My other experiences in Royal's MDR were...okay, although I never thought the food exceeded Carnival's MDR offerings at any time over the six sailings I've done on that Royal charter.  

Only the bottom floor (of three) in Royal's MDR was open, and it was open seating during dinner for all.  They make some other changes, too, including setting up some tables in a certain...prurient...way best not described on a family forum.  As our server on another night said with gusto when he saw the tables set up, "Aha, here come the 'Vikings'!"   😄       

 

The middle level of the MDR was reserved for performers' merchandise sales, and the top level was left vacant or used for table and chair storage.   This is on Freedom-class ships (specifically the Liberty in 2015 and the Independence from 2016-2020).  

 

 

lol, nope.  Maybe MSC will sweep in and buy out one or the other...or both.  🙂  

 

 

Hope not.  

 

Hmm, I'll have to ask my friends Todd and Ashley if they were charged for room-service, as they also had an Excel suite (aft, starboard side).  Room accommodates only two, but there was room for 11 people to sit or recline on that balcony...not including the jacuzzi tub.  😮  

 

I got back yesterday from a b2b and we pulled up with msc in costa maya. All fairly large ships. MSC had 571 pax onboard. Worrisome. Wishing them good luck.

 

As for rcl I think too much service. Drove me crazy. Couldnt eat without constantly being asking if I needed something. Extra items brought to our table we didnt order to give them a better score on survey I felt. Hopefully every thing will calm down a bit. I want all the lines to do well. 

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7 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

I got back yesterday from a b2b and we pulled up with msc in costa maya. All fairly large ships. MSC had 571 pax onboard. Worrisome. Wishing them good luck.

 

Wow.  That's a tiny crowd.   

At least MSC didn't plow into the dock like they've done once before in that part of the world.  😮   

 

I was kidding -- mostly -- about MSC buying up anyone, but they ARE one of the largest ocean shipping companies on the planet.  Cruise ships aren't quite a sideline item for them, but they have a huge and presumably quite profitable shipping fleet.   570 container ships.  😮  

 

 

7 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

As for rcl I think too much service. Drove me crazy. Couldnt eat without constantly being asking if I needed something. Extra items brought to our table we didnt order to give them a better score on survey I felt.

 

 

Sadly, that might be true.  There's a vast difference between "attentive" service and "unctuous" service.  

7 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

Hopefully every thing will calm down a bit. I want all the lines to do well. 

 

So say we all!  

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4 hours ago, firefly333 said:

...

 

As for rcl I think too much service. Drove me crazy. Couldnt eat without constantly being asking if I needed something. Extra items brought to our table we didnt order to give them a better score on survey I felt. Hopefully every thing will calm down a bit. I want all the lines to do well. 

 

When we dined in Chibang on the Mardi Gras I think our two servers had only one occupied table in their section --- us !  It seemed like every few bites (and invariably in the middle of bites) one of them was stopping by to check on us. It was like they were taking turns. I will say, however, we've never been in/out of a place so quickly !!

 

Tom

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1 hour ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

 

When we dined in Chibang on the Mardi Gras I think our two servers had only one occupied table in their section --- us !  It seemed like every few bites (and invariably in the middle of bites) one of them was stopping by to check on us. It was like they were taking turns. I will say, however, we've never been in/out of a place so quickly !!

 

Tom

I counted 7 waiters in the buffet in less than 1 or 2 minutes, before I could take 2 bites asking if they could get me coffee or OJ. Surely they saw the person before them ask. I got to the pt I was saying ok, you are #5 asking me before I could eat. The service was too much imo. Annoying. 

 

Lol my outspoken dinner mater in Mdr was talking and they couldnt get a word in edgewise so a waiter pulled on his sleeve to stop him talking to interrupt him to ask if there was anything else. He told them cant you see I'm talking, leave me alone and go away. He went a bit too far but I was thinking that many times last week. 

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Guest BasicSailor
49 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

I counted 7 waiters in the buffet in less than 1 or 2 minutes, before I could take 2 bites asking if they could get me coffee or OJ. Surely they saw the person before them ask. I got to the pt I was saying ok, you are #5 asking me before I could eat. The service was too much imo. Annoying

 

Lol my outspoken dinner mater in Mdr was talking and they couldnt get a word in edgewise so a waiter pulled on his sleeve to stop him talking to interrupt him to ask if there was anything else. He told them cant you see I'm talking, leave me alone and go away. He went a bit too far but I was thinking that many times last week. 

Had that same experience in the MDR . Four waiters back and forth even before I could chew down a shrimp cocktail. It's going to pan out when the ships start filling up again. In the meantime, you may have to shoo them away.

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On 2/12/2022 at 3:04 AM, bmc alabama said:

That's the thing.  I sort of had the exact same impression going in, and while some of that is definitely true, I was surprised on how upscale, especially the food offerings, were.  I'll also agree that it's not for everybody, but it's so refreshing to get on a cruise ship and not be shelling out extra $$$ all over the place...  The adjectives I would use may be quirky to a degree, but definitely innovative and upscale...

 

VV does have, what I think is a game changing product, but a terrible marketing campaign to go with it...  You are right, people aren't going to go if they get the vibe that you describe.

 

We were on Oasis in January.  The late night food options were laughable at best (and we weren't very impressed by the other regular food offerings either, with Loco Fresh being a welcome exception).  WHY does the ice cream close at 5:30???  WHY is the Solarium Bistro only open 3 hours a day?  Cafe Promenade is a joke, IMHO the offerings there were terrible, especially in comparison to something like International Cafe on Princess (which is what I think they were aiming for).  The only dining option open on Oasis after 9pm when the WJ and MDR's closed that wasn't "specialty" dining was Sorrento's (open until 1am) and the aforementioned Cafe Promenade.  I really didn't care for Sorrento's either.  The Playmakers Sports Bar was open later, if you wanted to pay extra for nachos, chicken tenders or fries and Sugar Beach was open late too, just so you could pay $4-$6 for that nightly ice cream...

 

I suppose you could get room service, but unless you are on something like Princess or Disney, that usually carries a charge now too...

To me, quality and upscale or synonymous. So are funky and quirky. 

 

If you like not being nickeled and dimed, there are many luxury lines that will not upsell you, have tons of people pushing sells on you, and some don't even have a casino. 

 

IMHO, I think a lot of people view the lack of upselling on VV as "refreshing" or "new" because most haven't sailed on a luxury line. VV may just so happen to be the first line that people are sailing with where they get to experience this. But if you have sailed with other luxury lines, it's same old hat trick. Keep in mind, that you you are pay a hefty premium for not having this upsell. So you are paying for it one way or another.

 

That's why I like carnival. Rock bottom prices and I can just avoid the upsell heavy areas. But I have to recalibrate my expectations as CCL =/= Viking ocean etc. I still have fun on the party atmosphere and I miss it sometimes even when I am on other mainstream cruise lines. Again, in my early 30s. 

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3 hours ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

 

When we dined in Chibang on the Mardi Gras I think our two servers had only one occupied table in their section --- us !  It seemed like every few bites (and invariably in the middle of bites) one of them was stopping by to check on us. It was like they were taking turns. I will say, however, we've never been in/out of a place so quickly !!

 

Tom

 

1 hour ago, firefly333 said:

I counted 7 waiters in the buffet in less than 1 or 2 minutes, before I could take 2 bites asking if they could get me coffee or OJ. Surely they saw the person before them ask. I got to the pt I was saying ok, you are #5 asking me before I could eat. The service was too much imo. Annoying. 

 

Lol my outspoken dinner mater in Mdr was talking and they couldnt get a word in edgewise so a waiter pulled on his sleeve to stop him talking to interrupt him to ask if there was anything else. He told them cant you see I'm talking, leave me alone and go away. He went a bit too far but I was thinking that many times last week. 

 

35 minutes ago, BasicSailor said:

Had that same experience in the MDR . Four waiters back and forth even before I could chew down a shrimp cocktail. It's going to pan out when the ships start filling up again. In the meantime, you may have to shoo them away.

This is very much how I feel when I am on other higher end cruise lines or the Haven on NCL. Some people like that service and will pay extra. To me, it's very annoying. Imagine constantly be pestered by everyone asking you if they could get something for you or help you out the moment that you step out of your cabin until you get back. It gets exhausting. That level of service isn't for me. To each their own. 

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On 2/11/2022 at 6:56 PM, DallasGuy75219 said:

The embarrassment is across the whole fleet, how Carnival has steadily cut late night options where the only thing now available after 10 pm is the always understaffed pizza station.  They love to advertise free 24 hour pizza but then make the experience a hassle so you'll give up and go back to your room and order paid room service. No coincidence that the free room service menu ends at 10 pm either.

 

Royal Caribbean runs circles around Carnival's late night food, with pizza readily available (with more options than Carnival) until 3 am and/or Cafe Promenade open 24 hours.

IMO, they all pale in comparison to O'Sheana (however you spell that) on NCL. Full bar menus 24/7. I love getting crispy fresh wings at 3-4 am in the morning. 

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21 hours ago, LakeWobegon said:

I agree with the comment posted earlier that the major lines are more similar than they are different, overall. That said, after many cruises on NCL, Royal, Carnival - and gasp, MSC (Yacht Club), I would say Carnival is still my favorite because of the vibe and the food. We rarely if ever go to the buffet. The MDR, variety of free fast-food choices, and specialty restaurants are what we like. And per the vibe ... minus some of the contests at the main pool during the day, it's a fun yet classy one. There are a lot of snobs that would call it trashy, but I would call those people and their vibe, boring. 😀

I would never call CCL classy. But I do enjoy the trashy. No shame here. It's HILARIOUS watching people make a fool of themselves. Reminds me of college. 

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17 minutes ago, DrSea said:

IMO, they all pale in comparison to O'Sheana (however you spell that) on NCL. Full bar menus 24/7. I love getting crispy fresh wings at 3-4 am in the morning. 

This was over a decade ago (NCL Epic), but they were tasty! It seems that they are different on every ship - with my favorite (closest to actual "Buffalo Wings") being at Longboard's on the Sky !

 

IMG_0559-L.jpg

 

Tom

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1 minute ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

This was over a decade ago (NCL Epic), but they were tasty! It seems that they are different on every ship - with my favorite (closest to actual "Buffalo Wings") being at Longboard's on the Sky !

 

IMG_0559-L.jpg

 

Tom

Last time I was on NCL was in Jan 2020. So I haven't been on since the restart. But yes, those wings look delicious and they were just as delicious when on I was on the NCL Joy on Jan 2020. 

 

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15 hours ago, Webecruzen said:

Royal is coming after this loyal Carnival Cruiser.  3 free cruises in 5 months port fees and taxes only.  We can purchase the Key on Sale and have a lot of our Diamond Perks on Carnival.  

how did you get those free cruises?

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20 minutes ago, DrSea said:

how did you get those free cruises?

 

I'd venture that the casino had something to do with it.  🙂

 

I played a little bit one evening on the Indy in early December, and have a slew of "free" cruise offers, mostly insides, and a few ocean view. You can pay to upgrade though (something I would definitely do). 

 

And, from limited play on Carnival - I booked two 3-nighters over the next several weeks, at the low rate of $60pp for a balcony.

 

From a sheer savings perspective though, our upcoming Reflection sailing is tops - managing almost $5,000 off a Royal Suite (through their Casino dept - Blue Chip Club), and I have not spent a penny in their casinos in nearly 6 years !

 

Tom

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On 2/14/2022 at 9:20 AM, firefly333 said:

I counted 7 waiters in the buffet in less than 1 or 2 minutes, before I could take 2 bites asking if they could get me coffee or OJ. Surely they saw the person before them ask. I got to the pt I was saying ok, you are #5 asking me before I could eat. The service was too much imo. Annoying. 

 

Lol my outspoken dinner mater in Mdr was talking and they couldnt get a word in edgewise so a waiter pulled on his sleeve to stop him talking to interrupt him to ask if there was anything else. He told them cant you see I'm talking, leave me alone and go away. He went a bit too far but I was thinking that many times last week. 

 

 

I agree I hate waiters who interrupt conversations and I even more hate them in the buffet when I leave a plate away from the edge with 1/2 of food only to come back and it is taken away.

I feel on most ships those working in dining area are told to keep constantly busy as they are being watch.  but in keeping busy, they do stupid or silly things.  They need to better train the dining areaa workers because it should not be about interruptions and clearing away as quickly as possible.

 

One time on a RCI ship in the theater, every 30 seconds a bar person came by to ask.

So I gathered them all up and told them as a group, I DO NOT WANT A DRINK.   boy did they scatter.

too funny.  But they are eager beavers to please mgmt and keep busy.  Just over the top IMHO.

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On 1/28/2022 at 7:27 AM, tx121 said:

The cruise isn't even over yet and I am already writing a review of my experience on Carnival's Mardi Gras. That's how confident and impressed I am with this ship!  Watch out Royal and NCL, Carnival's out to get your  loyal members with this ship.  

 

Background 

I usually gravitate towards the Royal Caribbean / Celebrity brand (diamond/ elite status) and Norwegian Cruise Line (gold status). Since the cruise restart I have cruised 6 times, basically taking advantage of the great deals and lower capacities. My goal is also to try out cruise lines that I haven't experienced before like MSC and Carnival.

Prior to this cruise, my only experience on Carnival was on the Sunrise in November. Now expectations were low for that cruise and i was expecting the "typical reputation" Carnival gets. Well all of that was proven correct as the food wasn't that great, the entertainment/ production shows were just ok compared to other cruise lines, service was spotty. However what I did like which was surprising was the fellow guests. People from all backgrounds were there to just have a good time. The best way to describe the atmosphere was care free. 

Now after a few weeks at home, I got a email discount offer from Carnivals VIFP program. The cruise rate was about $350 per person WITH taxes and fees for this sailing on the Mardi Gras. This was a no brainer and I booked. 

 

Embarkation 

This went pretty fast. It took maybe 25 minutes from start to finish. I noticed that people were bringing a 12 pack of soda with them onboard. It's good to know for next time that this is allowed.

 

The Ship

It is Amazing!! The Mardi Gras ship design is in my Top 2 favorites, only behind the Oasis class ships on Royal Caribbean. I love how it flows, the massive amount of dining options (free and fee), the themeing of the venues and areas around the ship. Everything looks modern and designed to space people out. Now I think we are only sailing around 60% because of cancellations due to omicron surge. I am curious to know how it will be with 100% capacity and if the design still works for this ship. 

 

Activities and Entertainment 

Where do I begin?! There are so many activities on this ship that it is impossible to do them all. A lot of them overlap each other but i think that it's great to have options. You will not be bored. 

The production shows in the main theater are just ok but the shows at center stage are amazing! I thoroughly enjoy the different shows that are showcased here. 

Family Feud is a must see. Even the audition finals are entertaining to watch.

If you like comedy, this is the ship for you. There are many shows throughout the cruise with around 5 different comedians for the week. 

Everything is fun fun fun! The cruise director Mike has done a great job planning activities and events for this cruise. I love how visible he is around the ship and his energy. 

 

Food

There are so many food options available on this ship. Now I am not sure if certain places like Chibang, Guys BBQ dinner, Cucina del Capitano will be free after the inaugural season. These are great places to go besides the main dining room. They are all very good.

Shaqs chicken, Guys burgers, Iguana Cantina are good. 

The street eats area is hit or miss depending on the day.  

The pizza is fresh and surprisingly really good. The hidden gem is the panini /sandwich place next to the pizza. They are so good! 

The buffet has a limited options and isn't that big as far as variety...but with so many more options around, it's ok. 

I had Teppanyaki last nite and I thought it was decent.

Tonight we are headed to 555 Fareinheit Steakhouse.  Anyone have any recommendations of must try dishes? We really wanted to try Rudis but it was all booked up for the week. 😔

 

Overall Thoughts

I HIGHLY recommend the Mardi Gras. Carnival has done a great job with this ship and I really think this will attract loyal customers from other cruise lines who are hesitant to try Carnival because of the past reputation and style of their older ships. 

 

 

 

Royal has a MUCH better loyalty program than Carnival and because of that I am already gravitating more towards Royal. Carnival Mardi Gras is a great ship but their loyalty program simply sucks. My wife gets 8 drinks daily on Royal (because I don't drink) and that saves us over $700 per week long cruise. Mardi Gras can't compete with that (and the Oasis class ships are just as nice as the Mardi Gras).

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I had one guy who exclusively sails Royal once tell me he went on a few Carnival cruises but has since "graduated" from those. Well, lah tee dah. We love Carnival and we're fairly sophisticated in our taste. It's a good time. I guess we don't feel we have to pretend to be important like the guy I mentioned. We just love life and so the Carnival vibe suits us!

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12 hours ago, Computer Nerd said:

Royal has a MUCH better loyalty program than Carnival and because of that I am already gravitating more towards Royal. Carnival Mardi Gras is a great ship but their loyalty program simply sucks. My wife gets 8 drinks daily on Royal (because I don't drink) and that saves us over $700 per week long cruise. Mardi Gras can't compete with that (and the Oasis class ships are just as nice as the Mardi Gras).

 

Agreed - those 4 drinks pp/pd on Royal are a benefit which really stands out (compared to most of the crumbs Carnival offers). I'd take the Oasis any day over the Mardi Gras, having been on both more than once. 🙂

 

Tom

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46 minutes ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

 

Agreed - those 4 drinks pp/pd on Royal are a benefit which really stands out (compared to most of the crumbs Carnival offers). I'd take the Oasis any day over the Mardi Gras, having been on both more than once. 🙂

 

Tom

And diamond is only at 80 pts which are much easier to get than on carnival. I actually often enjoy the finger foods they put out at 5 pm in the diamond lounge. I almost never used all my 4 daily vouchers. I got the fresh squeezed oj most mornings but got lazy. The coffee machine makes capachino whatever ..4 specialty coffees are available every morning in the diamond lounge and pastries, cheese and fruit. But vouchers are good in the cafe too. ..now I get 5 vouchers a day. Pinns  get 6 a day and free wifi and specialty restaurants. Diamond gets 24 hours of wifi, diamond plus gets 2 days. So most couples alternate and get 4 days of free wifi. I get if it's not necessary but I enjoy my wifi time. I'll probably never be a pinnacle but diamond plus is easy. Solo gets 1 extra pt, 1 extra pt for JS and up, and anyone who booked before last sept 30th is getting double pts. Zoom .. right to diamond plus.

 

Diamond plus free amenity gift, people usually pick a bottle of wine, I'm asking for a towel. Not many good non drinking choices... but enough perks to sway me to rcl over carnival .. solo perks. At 340 pts I get 25% off. If carnival offered me a solo discount as a loyalty perk I'd be on carnival. That's the straw that broke the camels back.. and I'm at 197 pts on carnival. And did 3 carnival since restart. Perks for me make the difference. Bogo specialty restaurant. Each and every cruise, not just once like carnival. 2nd amenity gift at 340, 2 free bottles of wine. ..and pts are much faster to get, it's not as high as it sounds.

 

I'd just love to add in sailbration ..but the 2 day testing makes it hard to switch back and forth cruiselines. Go away covid. I have nothing against carnival but wish they had as good of perks. Poster above said well la de da ...its not that. It's about the free drinks. Free wifi. Free gift. Bogo dinner. I'm not la de da, I like free stuff. I dont get casino offers. 

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We recently got to experience our first Royal Caribbean cruise on the Oasis of the Seas after exclusively Carnival for the last 20 years. 

 

We LOVED the Oasis of the Seas. Entertainment was hands down better than anything Carnival has to offer (water show in particular) and the ship was amazing.

 

However, we don't do much specialty dining and we thought the casual eat availability and selection was EXTREMELY thin compared to Carnival. Limited Buffet hours and limited options besides Pizza most of the day. Carnival Deli beats the Cafe Promenade handily and while Sorrento's was more "convenient" (faster) than the Carnival pizzeria, Carnival often pizzeria has more options and much more customizing. There were hours on the Oasis we wanted a snack and just didn't like the pizza option or the options in the Cafe Promenade and we were SOL, and oddly enough this happened MOST often between 3 and 5pm between lunch and dinner. We NEVER were hungry on the Carnival Miracle as there were a lot of options available between 12-6pm (Guys, Blue Iguana until 3, buffet open later, the deli, pizza, salad bar open later). We are going on the Carnival Radiance next month and that has even MORE casual options (see: Shaq's Chicken Shack and Pig & Anchor BBQ)

 

We thought we were done with Carnival for a while after the Oasis cruise, but Carnival keeps sending us amazing pricing/deals so we now have our 3rd cruise booked for next month, 2nd on Carnival in 3 months. In fact, we spent more on-board our Miracle cruise than we did on the Oasis because our cabin rate was so cheap. 

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