Tipping now more important than ever

[George C]

2 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

So is there a plan where at some point in time you will decrease this amount back to pre covid or is this your new normal of tipping? 

Once our income goes down we will go back to normal tipping. 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Of course it means higher fares, and hardly a single non-tipper will have a problem with that. I'm bombarded with emails from cruise lines and travel agents, and if I compare a mid market cruise with basic price only advertised, and compare with a luxury cruise with everything, including excursions, in the advertised price, then the price is not much different overall. I genuinely believe than many people can't comprehend just how much the basic price is going to increase to get all the things included in the luxury cruise.

So when I go on my luxury cruise (hopefully) next year, I can be content that the staff is being well paid without having to be bribed to do better; I can order any drink without needing to take out a mortgage to pay my bill, and I go choose any excursion I want without having to work out just how overpriced it may or may not be. I realise the subject is about tipping, and the last two items are not therefore relevant to the discussion, but to me, it's all part of booking a holiday. I've paid, and that's the end of it. No surprises. If the price is double or even two and a half times the price of the basic price, it is probably reasonable value to me.

 

The thought of staff earning huge pay-outs from tips doesn't motivate me. If I have any sub standard service I will make a formal complaint, and not rely on having to effectively bribe staff to do their job at the highest level. Also as a customer (who once upon a time was considered to be 'always right') I don't care if the staff like the current system which may earn them well above the true value of their skill level, because it's the passengers who actually matter

In the beginning of this thread, you said that the concept of doing away with tipping was for the good of the crew in order for them to earn a decent wage and get pensions. Now you say you "don't care if the staff like the current system which may earn them well above the true value of their skill level". So which is it, this is for the good of the crew, or you do not care about the crew?

[navybankerteacher]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:14 AM, Peter Lanky said:

OK, lets try a different approach. You go into an insurance broker and get a good price for your car insurance. Do you give them an extra 10%?

There is difference, discernable by many, between a strictly personal service and a commercial transaction.

[wowzz]

Just now, navybankerteacher said:

There is difference, discernable by many, between a strictly personal service and a commercial transaction.

Well said. 

I was trying to think of an apt response, and your reply is far better than I could construct.

At times the OP is citing meaningless transactions to try and defend his position.

[Peter Lanky]

6 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

In the beginning of this thread, you said that the concept of doing away with tipping was for the good of the crew in order for them to earn a decent wage and get pensions. Now you say you "don't care if the staff like the current system which may earn them well above the true value of their skill level". So which is it, this is for the good of the crew, or you do not care about the crew?

That's a good and valid question. It has already been quoted earlier that a crew member told a customer that they were retiring, but had no retirement pay-out and no pension. Probably very many crew members don't consider this until just prior to retirement, when it is too late. Had they been proper salaried staff with a pension in their terms of employment, then they would be far better off than they are now, making more money via tips, but no real contract.

 

The employer knows this and is happy to avoid the expense of setting up a pension and to give good conditions of service, because the employee falsely believes that they are better off, and is thus 'happy'. The reason that I don't care that they are happy with the current set up is that I don't believe that the wishes of the employee should be considered above those of the customer, especially as very likely they would be better with a real contract of employment rather than effectively being self employed.

 

So the short answer is that I care very much for staff welfare and that of low paid people in general, but not to continue with a system because they (think that) they like it that way.

[sparks1093]

9 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

That's a good and valid question. It has already been quoted earlier that a crew member told a customer that they were retiring, but had no retirement pay-out and no pension. Probably very many crew members don't consider this until just prior to retirement, when it is too late. Had they been proper salaried staff with a pension in their terms of employment, then they would be far better off than they are now, making more money via tips, but no real contract.

 

The employer knows this and is happy to avoid the expense of setting up a pension and to give good conditions of service, because the employee falsely believes that they are better off, and is thus 'happy'. The reason that I don't care that they are happy with the current set up is that I don't believe that the wishes of the employee should be considered above those of the customer, especially as very likely they would be better with a real contract of employment rather than effectively being self employed.

 

So the short answer is that I care very much for staff welfare and that of low paid people in general, but not to continue with a system because they (think that) they like it that way.

Many employers do not offer pensions to their employees and just turning the tips into wages doesn't mean that the staff would enjoy that perk. 

[kamelia]

5 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

That's a good and valid question. It has already been quoted earlier that a crew member told a customer that they were retiring, but had no retirement pay-out and no pension.

I wish @glojo had asked the crew member if this had come as a surprise - or perhaps if they did take that step, they will come back and clarify.  I suspect that the stewardess was well aware of that long before the end of her 30-year career and had made her own plans accordingly.  Much like many of us using Cruise Critic to learn from the examples of others who post here, there is a very active support network within the cruise crew community that they also benefit from, and I find it hard to believe that there isn't more that they are aware of than passengers may ever know.

[navybankerteacher]

It interesting to see some of these pseudo-egalitarian posts by folks who really have very little understanding of the environment which they claim to want to improve.  Cruising simply would not exist at all for the overwhelming portion of today's passengers were it not for the huge difference in living standards, employment opportunity, compensation plans, pension programs, etc. between the countries which provide the cruise ship passengers and the countries which provide the cruise ship service staffs.

 

The world is unfair - while cruising reflects much of that unfairness, it also mitigates for many some of the effects of that unfairness.  Much of what has been posted here by the would-be reformers would simply eliminate what mitigation current cruising provides --- while imperfect and incomplete it serves both sides.

Edited February 9, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[Peter Lanky]

17 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

There is difference, discernible by many, between a strictly personal service and a commercial transaction.

 

13 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Well said. 

I was trying to think of an apt response, and your reply is far better than I could construct.

At times the OP is citing meaningless transactions to try and defend his position.

I could turn that round and say you are finding a 'get out' for everything I suggest to defend your position. 😉

So how about the person who mingles with the guests at a cocktail party handing out drinks? The person who gives you a bed bath in hospital? The person who sweeps the seaweed from the beach every morning to make it pristine for you? The road sweeper driver who cleans the gutters in front of your house? The schoolteacher who helps your children pass their exams? etc. etc.

[sparks1093]

10 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

I could turn that round and say you are finding a 'get out' for everything I suggest to defend your position. 😉

So how about the person who mingles with the guests at a cocktail party handing out drinks? The person who gives you a bed bath in hospital? The person who sweeps the seaweed from the beach every morning to make it pristine for you? The road sweeper driver who cleans the gutters in front of your house? The schoolteacher who helps your children pass their exams? etc. etc.

Some positions traditionally receive tips and some people don't. Presumably people take that into account when choosing their job. (And speaking of teachers I've known teachers who have been part-time parking valets for a local ski resort who made almost as much from tips as they did from their teacher salary.)

Edited February 9, 2022 by sparks1093

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

I will agree with the OP that tipping is really no more important than it was pre covid. If the whole idea is to get back to normal why put an extra emphasis on tipping post covid?

I think what the editors were trying to say was, "leave the DSC in place", but I haven't read the article.

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

Do they really expect any crew member to ever start listing all their complaints about their work to a customer😂

Obviously you haven't cruised on NCL's Pride of America!

[kamelia]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Obviously you haven't cruised on NCL's Pride of America!

😉 And, given that fitting response, obviously, you have!

[njhorseman]

20 minutes ago, kamelia said:

😉 And, given that fitting response, obviously, you have!

@chengkp75has done a lot more than simply cruising on NCL's Hawaii-based ships. 

[kamelia]

30 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

@chengkp75has done a lot more than simply cruising on NCL's Hawaii-based ships. 

Indeed he has!  I very much appreciate the wisdom he has shared so often on many of these boards, and wanted him to know I also appreciated his wry observation about NCL's Pride of America crews.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

I could turn that round and say you are finding a 'get out' for everything I suggest to defend your position. 😉

So how about the person who mingles with the guests at a cocktail party handing out drinks? The person who gives you a bed bath in hospital? The person who sweeps the seaweed from the beach every morning to make it pristine for you? The road sweeper driver who cleans the gutters in front of your house? The schoolteacher who helps your children pass their exams? etc. etc.

As I mentioned earlier, the difference between a strictly personal service and a commercial transaction is discernible by many (not all)— which indicates that there must be some incapable of recognizing it.
 

Perhaps I can help you out here:   a school teacher is hired, usually with a contract, to perform a necessary function— likely paid ultimately by taxes levied on the parents of his/her students, who may well be required by law to attend school;  and the road sweeper driver is likely similarly paid - and somewhat similarly acting in a capacity obviously more kin to that involved in a necessary commercial transaction;  while the waiter who brings you a drink while you sit by a pool on vacation can fairly easily be seen as performing a strictly personal service.

 

For someone who takes time to think, identifying a personal service is not that difficult.

Edited February 9, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[KBs mum]

5 hours ago, wowzz said:

Although those working in the US hospitality sector with a large number of foreign visitors (I'm thinking of theme parks specifically) will lose out as Europeans have a totally different concept as to the "correct" amount to tip.

 

The US is the outlier when it comes to tipping, in Europe we don't need to tip, the employer pays a decent wage, charges enough to cover it, tips are appreciated but not routine or expected. 

Tipping is rare in Australia and New Zealand, in some countries, I think Singapore is one, tipping is considered insulting. 

We tip according to local custom/convention when abroad. On ships that's whatever the suggested daily gratuity is, but in the UK it's usually included in the quoted price. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by KBs mum

[navybankerteacher]

13 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

The US is the outlier when it comes to tipping, in Europe we don't need to tip, the employer pays a decent wage, charges enough to cover it, tips are appreciated but not routine or expected. 

In some countries, I think Singapore is one, tipping is considered insulting. 

“…need to tip…” sort of waffles on the point .   In many, if not most,  European countries it is customary to add a tip at the more upscale restaurants (while many restaurants in France specify “service non compris”) — and when talking about taxis and hotel porters.  So tipping certainly does happen in Europe —- just on a somewhat different level.

Edited February 9, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[KBs mum]

26 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

“…need to tip…” sort of waffles on the point .   In many, if not most,  European countries it is customary to add a tip at the more upscale restaurants (while many restaurants in France specify “service non compris”) — and when talking about taxis and hotel porters.  So tipping certainly does happen in Europe —- just on a somewhat different level

Tipping does happen in Europe, didn't say otherwise, but it's not an 'unwritten rule' amount automatically added by the customer and expected by the employee and establishment as it is in the US, it tends to be the amount of bill rounded up to the next 5 or 0 amount, and is a reward for good service. Ordinary service gets no extra. The service non compris is countered by the service compris establishments. 

The US system baffles the first time visitor, as while probably aware that tipping is expected, the allmost 'prescribed' amounts are not widely known outside the US

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by KBs mum

[Peter Lanky]

25 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

The US is the outlier when it comes to tipping, in Europe we don't need to tip, the employer pays a decent wage, charges enough to cover it, tips are appreciated but not routine or expected. 

Tipping is rare in Australia and New Zealand, in some countries, I think Singapore is one, tipping is considered insulting. 

We tip according to local custom/convention when abroad. On ships that's whatever the suggested daily gratuity is, but in the UK it's usually included in the quoted price. 

Indeed, Singapore is way out in front of the rest for outlawing this archaic practice. As long ago as 1989, this receipt showing 'No Tipping' has been commonplace. It is not coincidence that Singapore is my favourite destination for travel. 😃

[KBs mum]

3 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

 

This is in a similar way to how many countries fail to include various taxes, for which the customer has no option but to pay, in their shelf price to make the price look cheaper, but thankfully this is not the case in the UK, other than a small number of foreign owned establishments such as Costco.

The Costco taxes thing is usually only Vat, which is not included in the prices as Costco is set up as a business to business supplier, where this is usual practice, for various tax return/accounting reasons

[alc13]

21 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

As I mentioned earlier, the difference between a strictly personal service and a commercial transaction is discernible by many (not all)— which indicates that there must be some incapable of recognizing it.
 

Perhaps I can help you out here:   a school teacher is hired, usually with a contract, to perform a necessary function— likely paid ultimately by taxes levied on the parents of his/her students, who may well be required by law to attend school;  and the road sweeper driver is likely similarly paid - and somewhat similarly acting in a capacity obviously more kin to that involved in a necessary commercial transaction;  while the waiter who brings you a drink while you sit by a pool on vacation can fairly easily be seen as performing a strictly personal service.

 

For someone who takes time to think, identifying a personal service is not that difficult.

I may be losing the focus of this thread, but isn’t one of the questions here whether tipping is fundamentally a good form of compensation?  Not whether a gift of money is a suitable means of showing appreciation for a service rendered, because it certainly is.  The old European habit of leaving change on the table was a nice practice in that regard.  But tipping has become an essential part of income for some workers in some parts of the world.  Many tip-givers recognize this and treat tips as obligatory.  Some counter service payment systems in the US ask for a tip before the food is even made or served.   So tipping has evolved a long way from its original purpose.  
 

 

[navybankerteacher]

6 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Indeed, Singapore is way out in front of the rest for outlawing this archaic practice. As long ago as 1989, this receipt showing 'No Tipping' has been commonplace. It is not coincidence that Singapore is my favourite destination for travel. 😃

It appears that the “.40 SVCE” item on the check is actually  a 20% service charge (read “auto-tip”) — so you might be acknowledging that “tipping”, the same way that cruise lines apply their DSC does happen in Singapore. 

[sparks1093]

14 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

It appears that the “.40 SVCE” item on the check is actually  a 20% service charge (read “auto-tip”) — so you might be acknowledging that “tipping”, the same way that cruise lines apply their DSC does happen in Singapore. 

Thanks, I thought my old eyes might have been seeing things.

[kamelia]

I have not found the article the OP was referring to, but given that it is associated with Cruise Critic, it seems reasonable to conclude that it was specific to tipping cruise staff who work in an industry in which tipping has become a customary part of the experience. 

 

Based on that, I can definitely see that those crew members who have been without the compensation that they have relied on for however many years would greatly appreciate tips from passengers now more than ever before.  If some find that objectionable, they are well within their rights to either choose a cruise line that abides by all-inclusive pricing, or choose to get themselves to passenger services at some point during their cruise to have gratuities removed, or choose to go with the flow and pay the extra cost added to their portfolio at the end of the cruise, or choose to slide an extra bill or two to whichever crew members they decide are worthy of that gesture for whatever reason they choose that to be, or they can even choose to not cruise at all.  And, I would also suggest that any crew member on a second or subsequent contract has also exercised their freedom of choice to accept the job offer made by the cruise line knowing what to expect based on their previous experience.  

 

Whether one finds tipping to be right or wrong is another tangent completely.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

That's a good and valid question. It has already been quoted earlier that a crew member told a customer that they were retiring, but had no retirement pay-out and no pension. Probably very many crew members don't consider this until just prior to retirement, when it is too late. Had they been proper salaried staff with a pension in their terms of employment, then they would be far better off than they are now, making more money via tips, but no real contract.

 

The employer knows this and is happy to avoid the expense of setting up a pension and to give good conditions of service, because the employee falsely believes that they are better off, and is thus 'happy'. The reason that I don't care that they are happy with the current set up is that I don't believe that the wishes of the employee should be considered above those of the customer, especially as very likely they would be better with a real contract of employment rather than effectively being self employed.

 

So the short answer is that I care very much for staff welfare and that of low paid people in general, but not to continue with a system because they (think that) they like it that way.

A lot of words, but the important ones, at least IMHO, are those of the last sentence. You know better than them as to what is good for them. I find that rather elitist.