Tipping now more important than ever

[Peter Lanky]

27 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

You are again making things over complicated. Where do you come up with conspiracy? She probably did not hit whatever button she needed to in order to send in the order. And even if she had and the fault was somewhere else, our table was her responsibility. When we were not getting our food well after others who had come in later, it was her responsibility to fix the problem, not just let us sit there until I was ready to just leave. How much simpler can that be? No taking care of the customer at all leads to no tip, a very unusual circumstance.

 

The manager blamed working out the kinks, but they were a long established restaurant. And even if the system was changed when they moved, it had been 6 months give or take since they set up in the new location. IMHO, the manager was just making an excuse for the waitress who had not done the fundamental things that a waitress needs to do---take care of her tables.

 

The conspiracy theory bit was intended as a joke. 😁

[Peter Lanky]

44 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

It is certainly possible for someone who is opposed to tips to choose a line that meets their needs. Win all the way around, as I see it.

Almost. It still means my choice is limited, but not an immediate problem, being booked onto 3 non tipping cruises taking me into 2024. The position may have moved on by then. Either that or NATO and the Russians will have nuked each other and that will be the end of that. 🚀

Edited February 12, 2022 by Peter Lanky

[Mike981]

Interesting thread. I've had this discussion on a few trips with folks not from America and it can be a lot of fun. Last time was with two gentlemen from Scotland, the hardest part for me? I couldn't understand them very well. But we all loved to laugh and drink, so it was wonderful.

 

As someone who basically grew up in the restaurant business, I could never see it change across the board to no tipping in the USA. It is part of the business model and employee costs are a huge expense. As a customer I would love to see it go away, but as an employee I don't believe many restaurants would raise wages enough to compensate for the loss of tips.

When I was 13 years old, I was a busboy Friday and Saturday nights and often would make more in tips than some of the wait staff, and the staff (not the restaurant) were tipping me as a thank you for turning the tables over quickly.

 

Some might not know this, but in some states tipped staff are paid less than standard minimum wage. In my busboy example, I was not considered a true tipped employee. So I was able to pull in a 'minor' (as in my age) minimum wage of $2.65 an hour. The adult tipped staff, got $1.90 an hour minimum wage. Think about that for a second. The powerful restaurant lobby was able to get the law changed to pay them even less. Almost 40% less. Standard adult minimum wage was $3.

 

Per the difference in tipping based on the type of restaurant, fast dining vs a more high end slow experience.

My mother was a waitress and my father was a bartender for years. My mom worked at the same place I bussed tables at for a while and she was very open about how much she made in tips. Then she moved to another restaurant that was considered one of the nicer supper clubs in town and she more than doubled her tips. This was back in the late 1970's and early 1980's and it was not unusual for her to bring home $200 in tips. Then the supper club decided that they were going to start sharing tips and she quit. It wasn't like today where one person takes your order, another brings your food and so on. She was your server from start to finish and saw it as a punishment for being the best waitress.

 

Many restaurants don't have any kind of benefit package or paid time off. It is a hard life and not just physically, but mentally, dealing with entitled people and not having a steady paycheck. If you are not good with your money, you can get upside down in a hurry. Salaried employees put their paycheck in the bank, tipped employees put their paycheck in their pocket each day and can easily burn through it. I've seen many hit the bar after their shift and blow it all. Smart? No, but darn easy to do.

 

Thank you for the discussion, it brought back many memories as you can see by the length of my post.

[DirtyDawg]

For the Brits on this thread tipping is just a North American thing just like driving on the wrong side of the road and Marmite are Brit things 😉. We like to have extra things added on in all sorts of areas of our lives. Sales taxes are added on, not like VAT which is included. Resort fees are added to the base hotel price. And in our football, we even have to add on an extra point after scoring a goal  to get the full points. You don't have to do that in your football! 🏈 ⚽

 

To you it's just Cheers! To us it's Cheers + 18%!  😁

Edited February 12, 2022 by DirtyDawg

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

Arizona is one of the top “taker states.”

 

And your point is?

[CPT Trips]

3 hours ago, Mike981 said:

As someone who basically grew up in the restaurant business, I could never see it change across the board to no tipping in the USA. It is part of the business model and employee costs are a huge expense. As a customer I would love to see it go away, but as an employee I don't believe many restaurants would raise wages enough to compensate for the loss of tips.

Why do you think restaurants would be resistant? It’s not that I disagree with you. I just can’t understand why. To me it’s a “because, just because…” kind of thing.

 

One reason I can think of is that employees can hide cash tips. I don’t really know, but it would seem more difficult to do with tips on a credit card. What’s in it for the employer? Skimming tips from the employees is the only thing I can think of. 

 

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

For the Brits on this thread tipping is just a North American thing just like driving on the wrong side of the road and Marmite are Brit things 😉. We like to have extra things added on in all sorts of areas of our lives. Sales taxes are added on, not like VAT which is included. Resort fees are added to the base hotel price. And in our football, we even have to add on an extra point after scoring a goal  to get the full points. You don't have to do that in your football! 🏈 ⚽

 

To you it's just Cheers! To us it's Cheers + 18%!  😁

Interesting you mentioned VAT -- in UK 20% VAT is built into purchase of goods - lower - I believe 10% for groceries -- sure the income tax may be OK -- but think about an expenditure tax -- at a fairly high rate - on everything you spend.

 

It beats me how the Brits think cruise ship tipping is such an abomination - while tolerating such a high consumption tax with so little noise.  Perhaps they are addicted to the "benefits" their government gives them in return.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Interesting you mentioned VAT -- in UK 20% VAT is built into purchase of goods - lower - I believe 10% for groceries -- sure the income tax may be OK -- but think about an expenditure tax -- at a fairly high rate - on everything you spend.

 

It beats me how the Brits think cruise ship tipping is such an abomination - while tolerating such a high consumption tax with so little noise.  Perhaps they are addicted to the "benefits" their government gives them in return.

 

When I travelled around America every time I got to the cash register tax was added to the price. And I don't even know what that rates were. For all I know they could be making it up😂. We could never find a list of all the different tax rates in the different states and different localities. From my experience of travel so far I haven't found a country that doesn't tax goods and services in some form or another. 

[navybankerteacher]

12 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

When I travelled around America every time I got to the cash register tax was added to the price. And I don't even know what that rates were. For all I know they could be making it up😂. We could never find a list of all the different tax rates in the different states and different localities. From my experience of travel so far I haven't found a country that doesn't tax goods and services in some form or another. 

Of course, most countries tax consumption as well as income - usually in the US it is in the 5% or 6% range - and is rarely applied to groceries.  Having it added has the advantage of advising people of what they are paying, while having it built in tends to hide it.  It is easy enough to find out various local sales tax rates on the internet - but I can see how it can be a bit of a surprise to a foreigner.  What amazes me is the rate of VAT in Europe — 20% (or more) in most countries — and often up to 10% on groceries (which are generally not subject to any sales tax in the US).  If that consumption tax comes on top of any significant income tax :  wow!

[CPT Trips]

Sorry this is small. It does show the average effective sales tax charged when local sales taxes are added to the state sales tax. Not many states are under six percent. There’s also differences in exactly what goods are taxed. 

 

https://taxfoundation.org/2022-sales-taxes/

 

Fourteen states tax groceries. States that tax groceries (rate if not fully taxed): Alabama, Arkansas (3%), Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois (1%), Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri (1.225%), Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee (5.5%), Utah (1.75%), Virginia (1.5% + 1% local option tax), and West Virginia (5%).

 

Then there’s the issue of the logic, or lack thereof, of what is and is not subject to sales tax. In PA for example bowling shirts are not subject to sales tax, but bowling shoes are; shoe polish is not taxable, but shoe brushes and applicators are; there are too many more illogical examples to cite. Some states tax clothing, others don’t. Depending on where in the US you are and what you purchase an item with a  $100 shelf price may actually cost $109.55. In most of the rest of the world using VAT the shelf price is the price.

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, most countries tax consumption as well as income - usually in the US it is in the 5% or 6% range - and is rarely applied to groceries.  Having it added has the advantage of advising people of what they are paying, while having it built in tends to hide it.  It is easy enough to find out various local sales tax rates on the internet - but I can see how it can be a bit of a surprise to a foreigner.  What amazes me is the rate of VAT in Europe — 20% (or more) in most countries — and often up to 10% on groceries (which are generally not subject to any sales tax in the US).  If that consumption tax comes on top of any significant income tax :  wow!

 

Maybe in your state groceries aren't taxed but when we travelled tax was applied on our groceries even if we only bought fresh food items. And in Europe VAT is not hidden it is clearly listed on the receipt, at least it has been in every receipt I have received that I could read (got a couple of Cyrillic receipts😂). 

 

If it is compulsory to pay I personally prefer having the tax just added to the price, once you are at the cash register it is a lot more trouble to change your mind. I would rather compare the price before I get to the cash register. I don't see it as the government doing something sneaky it is just convenience.

 

Also I would not get hung up on the 20%. My experience shopping in Europe prices for the same product can be so different country to country and even in different parts of the same country even though they all have 20% VAT so I don't think it is the biggest influence on price in Europe. There are things I found in Europe cheaper than the USA so even low taxes doesn't guarantee cheapness😂. 

[ilikeanswers]

41 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

Sorry this is small. It does show the average effective sales tax charged when local sales taxes are added to the state sales tax. Not many states are under six percent. There’s also differences in exactly what goods are taxed. 

 

https://taxfoundation.org/2022-sales-taxes/

 

Fourteen states tax groceries. States that tax groceries (rate if not fully taxed): Alabama, Arkansas (3%), Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois (1%), Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri (1.225%), Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee (5.5%), Utah (1.75%), Virginia (1.5% + 1% local option tax), and West Virginia (5%).

 

Then there’s the issue of the logic, or lack thereof, of what is and is not subject to sales tax. In PA for example bowling shirts are not subject to sales tax, but bowling shoes are; shoe polish is not taxable, but shoe brushes and applicators are; there are too many more illogical examples to cite. Some states tax clothing, others don’t. Depending on where in the US you are and what you purchase an item with a  $100 shelf price may actually cost $109.55. In most of the rest of the world using VAT the shelf price is the price.

 

I need one of these next time I'm in the USA👍😁

[Peter Lanky]

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Interesting you mentioned VAT -- in UK 20% VAT is built into purchase of goods - lower - I believe 10% for groceries -- sure the income tax may be OK -- but think about an expenditure tax -- at a fairly high rate - on everything you spend.

 

It beats me how the Brits think cruise ship tipping is such an abomination - while tolerating such a high consumption tax with so little noise.  Perhaps they are addicted to the "benefits" their government gives them in return.

 

Everyone has purchase taxes of some sort, and lets face it we need to raise those taxes for public spending, especially that feature where one doesn't need to produce a credit card before having medical treatment (friendly dig 😀). However other than a few dishonest online traders (and Costco) the VAT is invisible at the source of purchase. It's actually zero rate for most food products.

 

I was always irritated visiting some European countries when I first ventured abroad to France to find that when I'd believed I'd spent 20 Francs in a supermarket, my bill was more like 23 Francs. In the UK we almost universally accept that the price we see is the price we pay.

 

I'm not convinced that people in general really want to see how much tax they pay, or indeed (getting back on topic) how much they pay for service. You could take it a step forward and list the whole caboodle of costs e.g. The cruise costs £1, but we are going to add on fuel (£500), depreciation (£500), Food (£1,000) and so on. "Hey lads, I just bought a cruise for £1, what a bargain!"

Edited February 13, 2022 by Peter Lanky

[kamelia]

24 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

In the UK we almost universally accept that the price we see is the price we pay.

I was reminded of my first week as an expat in the U.K. and I was buying cricket kits our boys needed for school.  When I was checking out with the -trousers-, I asked the clerk what the total would be, and his eyes sparkled as he smiled and said, "oh, we're not like your country - the price on the tag is the price you pay."  It was the first eye-opening experience of what would be a lovely five-year stay. 😊

[sparks1093]

15 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Almost. It still means my choice is limited, but not an immediate problem, being booked onto 3 non tipping cruises taking me into 2024. The position may have moved on by then. Either that or NATO and the Russians will have nuked each other and that will be the end of that. 🚀

But you do have a choice. Nowhere is it written that we must have unlimited choice always available to us as consumers.

[sparks1093]

14 hours ago, Mike981 said:

Interesting thread. I've had this discussion on a few trips with folks not from America and it can be a lot of fun. Last time was with two gentlemen from Scotland, the hardest part for me? I couldn't understand them very well. But we all loved to laugh and drink, so it was wonderful.

 

As someone who basically grew up in the restaurant business, I could never see it change across the board to no tipping in the USA. It is part of the business model and employee costs are a huge expense. As a customer I would love to see it go away, but as an employee I don't believe many restaurants would raise wages enough to compensate for the loss of tips.

When I was 13 years old, I was a busboy Friday and Saturday nights and often would make more in tips than some of the wait staff, and the staff (not the restaurant) were tipping me as a thank you for turning the tables over quickly.

 

Some might not know this, but in some states tipped staff are paid less than standard minimum wage. In my busboy example, I was not considered a true tipped employee. So I was able to pull in a 'minor' (as in my age) minimum wage of $2.65 an hour. The adult tipped staff, got $1.90 an hour minimum wage. Think about that for a second. The powerful restaurant lobby was able to get the law changed to pay them even less. Almost 40% less. Standard adult minimum wage was $3.

 

Per the difference in tipping based on the type of restaurant, fast dining vs a more high end slow experience.

My mother was a waitress and my father was a bartender for years. My mom worked at the same place I bussed tables at for a while and she was very open about how much she made in tips. Then she moved to another restaurant that was considered one of the nicer supper clubs in town and she more than doubled her tips. This was back in the late 1970's and early 1980's and it was not unusual for her to bring home $200 in tips. Then the supper club decided that they were going to start sharing tips and she quit. It wasn't like today where one person takes your order, another brings your food and so on. She was your server from start to finish and saw it as a punishment for being the best waitress.

 

Many restaurants don't have any kind of benefit package or paid time off. It is a hard life and not just physically, but mentally, dealing with entitled people and not having a steady paycheck. If you are not good with your money, you can get upside down in a hurry. Salaried employees put their paycheck in the bank, tipped employees put their paycheck in their pocket each day and can easily burn through it. I've seen many hit the bar after their shift and blow it all. Smart? No, but darn easy to do.

 

Thank you for the discussion, it brought back many memories as you can see by the length of my post.

Yes, they can be paid less hourly but most states also have laws saying that if tips don't bring the total to the regular minimum wage for the week then the employer has to make up the difference. 

 

And here's another thing that I don't believe was mentioned that applies to land based establishments. Thanks to the IRS tipped employees are presumed to earn the recommended tip on each bill and the employer is expected to withhold taxes with that presumption in mind. So people that don't leave tips potentially cost the staff money in addition to shorting them.

[sparks1093]

6 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, most countries tax consumption as well as income - usually in the US it is in the 5% or 6% range - and is rarely applied to groceries.  Having it added has the advantage of advising people of what they are paying, while having it built in tends to hide it.  It is easy enough to find out various local sales tax rates on the internet - but I can see how it can be a bit of a surprise to a foreigner.  What amazes me is the rate of VAT in Europe — 20% (or more) in most countries — and often up to 10% on groceries (which are generally not subject to any sales tax in the US).  If that consumption tax comes on top of any significant income tax :  wow!

Hiding it is right. Gasoline taxes are built into the price at the pump so the consumer is unaware exactly how much tax is being paid per gallon. It's been awhile since I've seen a breakdown but it's a good portion of the cost. 

[Peter Lanky]

9 minutes ago, kamelia said:

I was reminded of my first week as an expat in the U.K. and I was buying cricket kits our boys needed for school.  When I was checking out with the -trousers-, I asked the clerk what the total would be, and his eyes sparkled as he smiled and said, "oh, we're not like your country - the price on the tag is the price you pay."  It was the first eye-opening experience of what would be a lovely five-year stay. 😊

 

As a matter of interest, how did they take to cricket? It must have been a good school because despite cricket being our national summer sport, scant attention is paid to it in most schools. Buying kit is even more difficult. When I last needed some kit around 1990, the nearest place to get cricket kit was 25 miles away. When I was young, my town had about half a dozen 'sport shops', selling all manner of kit for playing sport. Now they have all been replaced by fashion shops selling kit that looks like it's for sport, but has little practical use. I'm now hopefully looking forward to a few visits to Old Trafford to watch the mighty Lancashire County Cricket Club. 😃

[Peter Lanky]

2 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Hiding it is right. Gasoline taxes are built into the price at the pump so the consumer is unaware exactly how much tax is being paid per gallon. It's been awhile since I've seen a breakdown but it's a good portion of the cost. 

 

I suppose it depends what the tax is for. For example in the UK, fuel tax and vehicle excise duty, often misquoted as road tax, are not ring fenced for any specific use, but the money just goes into one big pot to be allocated to different government departments by the Treasury.

 

Having said that, is it really important to know how much tax is added to a product, whether invisibly or openly? It just seems like one other thing to mull over and get stressed, when in the end there's nothing you can do about it other than not buy the product, which is not always possible.

 

7 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, they can be paid less hourly but most states also have laws saying that if tips don't bring the total to the regular minimum wage for the week then the employer has to make up the difference. 

 

And here's another thing that I don't believe was mentioned that applies to land based establishments. Thanks to the IRS tipped employees are presumed to earn the recommended tip on each bill and the employer is expected to withhold taxes with that presumption in mind. So people that don't leave tips potentially cost the staff money in addition to shorting them.

 

The more I read this very enlightening thread, the more I am convinced that tipping culture is negative. There are just so many things to consider for employer, employee, customer and revenue department even, that would not be issues if there were no tips. and there was a legal minimum wage for everyone, everywhere.

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

I suppose it depends what the tax is for. For example in the UK, fuel tax and vehicle excise duty, often misquoted as road tax, are not ring fenced for any specific use, but the money just goes into one big pot to be allocated to different government departments by the Treasury.

 

Having said that, is it really important to know how much tax is added to a product, whether invisibly or openly? It just seems like one other thing to mull over and get stressed, when in the end there's nothing you can do about it other than not buy the product, which is not always possible.

 

 

The more I read this very enlightening thread, the more I am convinced that tipping culture is negative. There are just so many things to consider for employer, employee, customer and revenue department even, that would not be issues if there were no tips. and there was a legal minimum wage for everyone, everywhere.

If I wanted the info I can find it, and we are definitely a captive audience but I do like transparency if possible. Go back and re-read post 113 and tell me that a full minimum wage would earn those folks that I talk about the kind of money that they earn now. Some states have mandated full minimum wage for tipped staff and it is my understanding that total income went down for many of those folks, especially the ones working at lower end establishments. It's really not complicated as a consumer. I decide how much to leave as a tip and I leave it. Then I am done. I don't worry about the rest of it at all.

[Peter Lanky]

2 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

If I wanted the info I can find it, and we are definitely a captive audience but I do like transparency if possible. Go back and re-read post 113 and tell me that a full minimum wage would earn those folks that I talk about the kind of money that they earn now. Some states have mandated full minimum wage for tipped staff and it is my understanding that total income went down for many of those folks, especially the ones working at lower end establishments. It's really not complicated as a consumer. I decide how much to leave as a tip and I leave it. Then I am done. I don't worry about the rest of it at all.

 

I've just checked and I recall the post well. This is one person. There are undoubtedly many others in a similar position, but far more who are probably struggling to exceed or even hit minimum wage. The person in post 113 is lucky to have been in the right place at the right time. There are many in every profession who are fortunate to earn far more than their real worth (if that is calculable). I can't see that a minority people doing very well is justification for keeping the practice.

 

Different rules in different parts of the country (i.e. states) doesn't help simplify matters. We have just started a similar process a few years back with different rules for England, Scotland, Wales and NI, and on the whole it is having a negative effect, as well as a whole new level of needless administration. But that's another story for another day.

[sparks1093]

47 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

I've just checked and I recall the post well. This is one person. There are undoubtedly many others in a similar position, but far more who are probably struggling to exceed or even hit minimum wage. The person in post 113 is lucky to have been in the right place at the right time. There are many in every profession who are fortunate to earn far more than their real worth (if that is calculable). I can't see that a minority people doing very well is justification for keeping the practice.

 

Different rules in different parts of the country (i.e. states) doesn't help simplify matters. We have just started a similar process a few years back with different rules for England, Scotland, Wales and NI, and on the whole it is having a negative effect, as well as a whole new level of needless administration. But that's another story for another day.

There are many other examples and most people that work for tips earn much more than minimum wage. That's around $11 an hour here in my state (and yes, the minimum wage also varies state to state). Minimum wage is, at best, an entry level wage and all of the hourly employees that I know have started at a higher rate because of market forces.

 

Let's look at the last waitress that served us. Our bill was $100 and her tip was $20. We were there for just over an hour. If she did 4 other tables in that same hour with similar bills even if they only left 15% she made $80 in that hour. If her shift lasted 4 hours and she served no other customers she's netting $20 an hour from tips alone, plus the hourly rate she earns as a tipped employee. Well above minimum wage. That isn't a big stretch at all and the reality is that she actually made more then this example because it was a busy night. Working for tips isn't the easiest way to earn a living but a living can be earned from it. The system does work, even though you hate it. 

[Peter Lanky]

1 minute ago, sparks1093 said:

There are many other examples and most people that work for tips earn much more than minimum wage. That's around $11 an hour here in my state (and yes, the minimum wage also varies state to state). Minimum wage is, at best, an entry level wage and all of the hourly employees that I know have started at a higher rate because of market forces.

 

Let's look at the last waitress that served us. Our bill was $100 and her tip was $20. We were there for just over an hour. If she did 4 other tables in that same hour with similar bills even if they only left 15% she made $80 in that hour. If her shift lasted 4 hours and she served no other customers she's netting $20 an hour from tips alone, plus the hourly rate she earns as a tipped employee. Well above minimum wage. That isn't a big stretch at all and the reality is that she actually made more then this example because it was a busy night. Working for tips isn't the easiest way to earn a living but a living can be earned from it. The system does work, even though you hate it. 

 

Of all the people who do unskilled work, which despite being unskilled is also important, I don't understand why you believe waiters and similar occupations are worth so much more. There are so many vital jobs that simply do not have the opportunity to increase their earnings beyond minimum wage, as they have no public contact. So yes, waiters etc can earn good money, but personally they are not worth any more than any other minimum wage job. Just because a few people like a certain practice doesn't mean it's right, especially as I and others have said before, it completely distorts the economy of a country, and when I visit such countries, I don't want a rabble of porters trying to tear my suitcase out of my hand and then demanding money with menaces for me to get it back. Thankfully at home, we only tend to have porters in very expensive hotels that I don't use.

[ilikeanswers]

50 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Of all the people who do unskilled work, which despite being unskilled is also important, I don't understand why you believe waiters and similar occupations are worth so much more. There are so many vital jobs that simply do not have the opportunity to increase their earnings beyond minimum wage, as they have no public contact. So yes, waiters etc can earn good money, but personally they are not worth any more than any other minimum wage job. Just because a few people like a certain practice doesn't mean it's right, especially as I and others have said before, it completely distorts the economy of a country, and when I visit such countries, I don't want a rabble of porters trying to tear my suitcase out of my hand and then demanding money with menaces for me to get it back. Thankfully at home, we only tend to have porters in very expensive hotels that I don't use.

 

Isn't that just a general issue with employment value? During the height of Covid workers were divided into essential and non essential and it was pretty clear those essential jobs that were expected to continue even in the worst of the pandemic are mostly pretty poorly paid jobs yet society literally can't function without them. This is a multi layered societal issue about how we value certain jobs. I think you are giving tipping more blame for this problem than it really deserves as I can't see how eliminating tipping is going to solve this issue😕. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[alc13]

Anecdotal data are not a good basis for general conclusions.  Every anecdote can be countered with another that contradicts it.  Tipping "works" in the sense that there is a stable economy based on it here in the US.  Whether it's good or bad for individual workers, employers, or customers is kind of beside the point.