CLIA calls out new CDC cruise ship guidelines

[mightycruisequeen]

https://porthole.com/clia-calls-out-new-cdc-cruise-ship-guidelines/

[Mary229]

I read the statement yesterday.  I think they need to be a bit more forceful and lay out their own case.  Just as the airlines used their association to do the work so do the cruise lines ( https://www.airlines.org/news/travel-industry-coalition-urges-lifting-of-international-testing-requirement-for-vaccinated-travelers/)

 

Their constituents are loyal to the brand not the associations.  They should use that loyalty, speak up as brands and encourage their customers to contact their own governments.   They are so afraid of the very vocal minority in favor of tight restrictions they are failing to engage with the 70% who are not (quoting a recent poll where 68% of Americans are ready to move on without restrictions)

[Djb4CC]

11 hours ago, Mary229 said:

   They are so afraid of the very vocal minority in favor of tight restrictions they are failing to engage with the 70% who are not (quoting a recent poll where 68% of Americans are ready to move on without restrictions)

I think that most cruise lines know their customer profile better then a general total population poll.  There is no way that 68% of the general population is the same as 68% of cruise passengers.  And it depends on the question asked - do I want restrictions gone, absolutely; am I willing to cruise with the restrictions, again absolutely and did in Nov 21 and will in Mar 22.
 

For sure the cruise lines are missing a segment of their passengers given the restrictions in place, but I think it is a smaller minority.  I think the thing holding more cruisers back is not the restrictions themselves, but the apprehension of getting covid in the first place.

[crusinbanjo]

1 hour ago, Djb4CC said:

…..  I think the thing holding more cruisers back is not the restrictions themselves, but the apprehension of getting covid in the first place.

I think the stumbling blocks and testing required for flights, ever changing rules and the possibility of being quarantined or removed from the ship mid cruise is holding back a significant segment of cruisers,  Mrs Banjo and I included.  We are both vaxed, and will only cruise again when the restrictions are lowered or removed, not before.  

[SilvertoGold]

The CDC guidelines impact our decision to cruise or not:   Vaxed and boosted, extremely leery of flying, so we are limited this year at least to homeport cruises R/T. Not much to choose from out of Vancouver.  Testing seems an expensive pain for little gain, but we are very willing to wear masks and social distance as much as possible on the ships.  Having HAL require use of FCCs this year is NOT helping at all, as that pressure is not a welcome addition to the whole miasma.

 

From what we read here on CC HAL is doing a very good job and is setting a very careful pace.  We support that but do agree with post 5, crusinbanjo, too many problems with changing rules, tests, quarantine.  

[Mary229]

I want to circle back to the two different articles particularly the CLIA article .  It clearly states that the cruise lines would like to be in charge of their own destiny, that they think it is unfair that they are singled out for CDC jurisdiction. 

 

My point was posting this article on an obscure website does not enhance their position. I know it is obscure as demonstrated by some here who have not bothered to read the article.  At least the airlines sent a copy of their letter to the White House.    I would propose that the cruise lines, singly or in concert, develop either a petition or craft a lobbying letter that their customers (constituents) can send to their representatives in government.  

[Mary229]

Here is the original CLIA article.    https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2022/february/clia-statement-regarding-guidelines-and-travel-health-notice-updates

[Tampa Girl]

14 hours ago, mightycruisequeen said:

https://porthole.com/clia-calls-out-new-cdc-cruise-ship-guidelines/

 

Thank you for posting these guidelines.  

[PACD_JG]

2 hours ago, Djb4CC said:

 I think the thing holding more cruisers back is not the restrictions themselves, but the apprehension of getting covid in the first place.

I'm more worried about testing positive for Covid than the disease itself.  My vote goes to Banjo.

[smbt1]

The new quidelines are similar to the old one. The ships must have their protocols (the details of which are developed by the cruise lines), they must have port agreements, they must report cases, they must test crew.

 

The only real difference is a new category above the 95% vaccinated category, which is vaccinated plus boosted which allows the ship to reduce quarantine times from 10 days to 5.

 

Other than that not much change. What we do not gave access to is the detailed protocols for each cruise line where there is clearly some variation.

[Mary229]

Yet another call to alter travel restrictions.  Before you jump in and say you can’t trust the industry please consider who do you think is going to defend the rights of the industry?   If you don’t trust the industry at this level perhaps you should reconsider letting them ferry you about the oceans.  Disagree all you want but don’t demean their integrity 
 

https://www.asta.org/files/FileDownloads/ASTA to WH Jeff Zients re Inbound Testing Order 2.1.2022 FINAL.pdf

[OmarOak]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

Yet another call to alter travel restrictions.  Before you jump in and say you can’t trust the industry please consider who do you think is going to defend the rights of the industry?   If you don’t trust the industry at this level perhaps you should reconsider letting them ferry you about the oceans.  Disagree all you want but don’t demean their integrity 
 

https://www.asta.org/files/FileDownloads/ASTA to WH Jeff Zients re Inbound Testing Order 2.1.2022 FINAL.pdf

Acknowledging that a party is not impartial and is advocating for their own commercial benefit is not demeaning their integrity.

[smbt1]

2 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Yet another call to alter travel restrictions.  Before you jump in and say you can’t trust the industry please consider who do you think is going to defend the rights of the industry?   If you don’t trust the industry at this level perhaps you should reconsider letting them ferry you about the oceans.  Disagree all you want but don’t demean their integrity 
 

https://www.asta.org/files/FileDownloads/ASTA to WH Jeff Zients re Inbound Testing Order 2.1.2022 FINAL.pdf

What is a little comical is that almost all of the countries in the Caribbean also require testing for the flights out of the US.   While they talk about the difficulty in testing, the real issue from the letter is the concern about testing positive and not being able to travel.  Maybe the ASTA should, as some of the Caribbean countries require, include insurance for covering expenses if someone should test positive. 

 

For a trip to Tahiti I will need to test at least 2 and potentially 3 times going (2 if both PCR, 3 if one of the first two is antigen), and one coming back. The US requirement allowing antigen tests, especially the eMed remote proctored tests, is a lot easier then many other countries.

 

During my last visit to an all inclusive resort in Mexico they sold insurance that would cover the 10 days of quarantine for $30 per person.

 

Personally I am in favor of testing on international flights in both direction.  Keeps a number of potential cases off of the plane, even though some may make it on board

[Mary229]

@smbt1 Even though I disagree with many of your observations I truly appreciate that you actually read the linked articles and deliver a thoughtful response.  I know of no travel industry agency, airline, cruise line or other that has not always complied with vaccine and entry mandates.  I have had to show vaccine papers prior to this crisis.

 

As to the ASTA, as you may or may have not recalled they specifically said the guidelines they are proposing are exclusively for fully vaccinated passengers.

 

I think you and I differ on a core principle - I do not believe a zero virus policy is practical or doable.  I think vaccines and therapeutics are the correct course coupled with education.  Some people simply should not be traveling now because of their medical conditions and they should heed the advice of their personal physician.   

 

Extraneous off topic comments:

 

 Personally I have selected to travel to open countries or countries with restrictions I feel comfortable with.   I have postponed travel to Tahiti, Asia and South America.  The history of pandemics has always shown that island and remote communities suffer more severely for various reasons.   As a former Gulf Coast resident I witnessed how the islands used to require foreign nationals to leave the island  with an approaching hurricane.  They simply don't have the ability to quickly ramp up resources, it takes a fleet to provide goods and services.  Those fleets are hard to come by during bad weather and in the current environment.    I assume 2023/2024 will be a better time for those regions.

 

 That said, I just returned from an internationally attended trade show where I do much business with Africans and South Americans.  All of these vendors strongly encouraged me to visit.  Unlike the wealthy people on this forum those folks need the tourist dollars to survive.  I understand their plight.  

[cruisemom42]

14 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Before you jump in and say you can’t trust the industry please consider who do you think is going to defend the rights of the industry?   If you don’t trust the industry at this level perhaps you should reconsider letting them ferry you about the oceans.  Disagree all you want but don’t demean their integrity 

 

My trust in the cruise industry has been eroded over time. I have not forgotten the situations that occurred at the beginning of the pandemic where many cruise lines purposely obscured the situations onboard ships sailing with COVID patients. 

 

As well, there was quite a bit of denial going on and refusal to take responsibility for continuing to sail. Passengers died as a result. Others were left at far ends of the earth with very little support. HAL itself made a decision to send one ship to rescue another that was in dire straits with ill passengers, deaths onboard, and not enough medical supplies. (Putting staff and crew on the second ship, I might add.) 

 

The continued refusal of the lines to be transparent about COVID cases onboard ships has not contributed in a positive way to re-establishing that trust. I guess some people prefer to put their head in the sand and assume that if they don't hear or read anything about COVID cases onboard, then they don't exist...

 

At any rate, I think it is a bit much to talk about the cruise lines' integrity at this point in the game!  Let them prove that they have some first.

 

[Mary229]

@cruisemom42  I respect your opinion except in one line, saying that others have their heads in the sand.   My point was I would not travel with an organization whose integrity I do not trust.  I have turned down arrangements , particularly in South America, where I did not think the service organization was meeting expectations.  There is one line, who I will not mention, who I will not sail with as I don't trust their integrity.  No head in the sand here.  

 

A skipped maintenance schedule, a shady crew, poor cash flow are all things I consider when I cruise or use any other travel arrangement.  

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Mary229 said:

A skipped maintenance schedule, a shady crew, poor cash flow are all things I consider when I cruise or use any other travel arrangement.  

And, you know the cruise ships' maintenance schedules, how, exactly?

[Mary229]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, you know the cruise ships' maintenance schedules, how, exactly?

You watch dry dock and other reports from people.  There are records just like airlines records. There are health records even before covid.  So many indicators of issues with ships and jets.    Some airlines are cited more often than others.   I am speaking industry wide, not just cruise ships.    You need to be aware when you set foot on any transportation device that you need to be clear on the integrity of the company you are dealing with.  Perhaps others foolishly just book travel with no concern safety - I do not.  

 

I assure you this forum would die if it were not for people doing the due diligence as best they can.  This is a starting point.  

Edited February 16, 2022 by Mary229

[smbt1]

6 hours ago, Mary229 said:

@smbt1 Even though I disagree with many of your observations I truly appreciate that you actually read the linked articles and deliver a thoughtful response.  I know of no travel industry agency, airline, cruise line or other that has not always complied with vaccine and entry mandates.  I have had to show vaccine papers prior to this crisis.

 

As to the ASTA, as you may or may have not recalled they specifically said the guidelines they are proposing are exclusively for fully vaccinated passengers.

 

I think you and I differ on a core principle - I do not believe a zero virus policy is practical or doable.  I think vaccines and therapeutics are the correct course coupled with education.  Some people simply should not be traveling now because of their medical conditions and they should heed the advice of their personal physician.   

 

Extraneous off topic comments:

 

 Personally I have selected to travel to open countries or countries with restrictions I feel comfortable with.   I have postponed travel to Tahiti, Asia and South America.  The history of pandemics has always shown that island and remote communities suffer more severely for various reasons.   As a former Gulf Coast resident I witnessed how the islands used to require foreign nationals to leave the island  with an approaching hurricane.  They simply don't have the ability to quickly ramp up resources, it takes a fleet to provide goods and services.  Those fleets are hard to come by during bad weather and in the current environment.    I assume 2023/2024 will be a better time for those regions.

 

 That said, I just returned from an internationally attended trade show where I do much business with Africans and South Americans.  All of these vendors strongly encouraged me to visit.  Unlike the wealthy people on this forum those folks need the tourist dollars to survive.  I understand their plight.  

One very major difference.  I do not consider the current testing restrictions to be anything like a zero virus plan.  A zero virus plan would be multiple tests, backed up by a 100% enforced quarantine such as used by China.  That is a zero virus plan.

 

The current mix of vaccination, testing and masks are a plan to reduce spread.  Application of the various strategies will reduce R0 from around 10 with Omicron to more in the 3-4 range, with a reduction of cases boarding by 50-70% if all three are applied as on cruise ships. 

 

As far as international travel Antigen testing can be expected to reduce the number of positive cases in boarding by 50-70% which is then combined with masking and ventilation systems to get R0 very low.

 

None of these are a zero covid strategy, they are a spread reduction and disease management strategy that are applied based upon the incidence level of the disease.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

You watch dry dock and other reports from people.

Well, first off, drydockings are statutory, so skipping them is not allowed.  Second, do you and these "other people" know what technical maintenance or repairs are done in drydock, or just whether carpets are changed.

 

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

There are records just like airlines records.

Yep, there are.  But, they are not public record, so not available to the general public.  How are you accessing either airline or ship maintenance records?

 

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

So many indicators of issues with ships and jets.

And, all these issues are due to faulty maintenance?  Your car has never broken down even though you follow the manufacturer's maintenance schedule?

 

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

 You need to be aware when you set foot on any transportation device that you need to be clear on the integrity of the company you are dealing with.

Great.  But, you need to cite specific examples of where you check the "integrity" of these companies as far as "skipped maintenance".  Can you give one example of "skipped maintenance" in any of the cruise lines?

 

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

Perhaps others foolishly just book travel with no concern safety - I do not.  

Concern for safety is a great thing, but I am asking how you are doing this, or are you going with media repoarts, that I can assure you as an industry insider, are frequently inaccurate, and sometimes just false.

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, first off, drydockings are statutory, so skipping them is not allowed.  Second, do you and these "other people" know what technical maintenance or repairs are done in drydock, or just whether carpets are changed.

 

Yep, there are.  But, they are not public record, so not available to the general public.  How are you accessing either airline or ship maintenance records?

 

And, all these issues are due to faulty maintenance?  Your car has never broken down even though you follow the manufacturer's maintenance schedule?

 

Great.  But, you need to cite specific examples of where you check the "integrity" of these companies as far as "skipped maintenance".  Can you give one example of "skipped maintenance" in any of the cruise lines?

 

Concern for safety is a great thing, but I am asking how you are doing this, or are you going with media repoarts, that I can assure you as an industry insider, are frequently inaccurate, and sometimes just false.

You gather what you can, you listen to advice and yes you listen for the rumors.   I know I made a mistake of flying on a poorly run airline and that was my turning point.  As it turns out the US military keeps a public list of “Do not fly”.  You do what you can but the most important thing is if you don’t trust their integrity don’t go with them.  We have all witnessed unscrupulous enterprises in our day and I would hope you are wise enough to keep a “do not buy” list, I do.    This is very simple, people call into question the integrity of the industry but blithely book another cruise - there is something seriously wrong there. 

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

yes you listen for the rumors.

And, there you have it folks.  Rumors of "shady" maintenance override facts.  Welcome to America today.