Has Seabourn gone to the dogs?

[Catlover54]

9 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

You know....it would be a real shame if the dog just happened to "jump" overboard.

 

 

 

"There's Something about Mary" and the dog scene comes to mind  🙂

 

 

[lincslady]

I had heard of the 'scam', used on another cruise line, whereby it is possible (at least in the USA) to get a spurious authorisation from a Dr.  declaring that a pet dog was indeed a service dog.  This is why I suggested that the owner would not be French,  but did not like to suggest that they were almost certainly American, as I feared the wrath of the majority of CC posters descending on me!

 

It is a shame that this thread has got so heated at times - pets, particularly dogs, can cause a lot of disagreements between avid dog lovers and those who may not actually dislike dogs, but do not wish to see them in what they see as inappropriate settings.  Incidentally, I have spent many holidays in France, speak French pretty well, and having nothing at all against the French people.

[SLSD]

I think it would be great if someone onboard asked a SB representative (the Hotel Director) what the Seabourn official stance is on service dogs. Do they have to be officially certified dogs in their home country?   And,  are they always allowed onboard?  Are there limitations as to where they can go?  etc.  Also, is there a limit to how MANY service dogs can be on board at one time? And, what is that limit?  It would be good information to know.   I would guess that anyone who asks is going to get a vague answer.  I could be wrong about that--and I hope I am wrong.  

 

This article (scroll down to read) gives basic information about Seabourn and service dogs.  https://www.cruise.co.uk/bulletin/guide-dogs-cruise-ships/

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by SLSD

[Isklaar]

29 minutes ago, SLSD said:

I think it would be great if someone onboard asked a SB representative (the Hotel Director) what the Seabourn official stance is on service dogs. Do they have to be officially certified dogs in their home country?   And,  are they always allowed onboard?  Are there limitations as to where they can go?  etc.  Also, is there a limit to how MANY service dogs can be on board at one time? And, what is that limit?  It would be good information to know.   I would guess that anyone who asks is going to get a vague answer.  I could be wrong about that--and I hope I am wrong.  

 

This article (scroll down to read) gives basic information about Seabourn and service dogs.  https://www.cruise.co.uk/bulletin/guide-dogs-cruise-ships/

 

 

We have friends on Sojourn right now who, along with two other couples, asked about this and they were directed to the SB website, section about accessibility. So yes, a rather vague answer. I'm not sure who they asked, it definitely wasn't the HD. They will be making further contact with SB when they are back at home.

[SLSD]

25 minutes ago, Isklaar said:

 

We have friends on Sojourn right now who, along with two other couples, asked about this and they were directed to the SB website, section about accessibility. So yes, a rather vague answer. I'm not sure who they asked, it definitely wasn't the HD. They will be making further contact with SB when they are back at home.

Here's what I found on the SB website:  

 

Seabourn only permits service animals on board, defined as those animals that are individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. We do not permit our guests to bring pets, therapy/companion animals, and other animals that do not meet the definition of service animals. If you have any questions about whether the animal you wish to bring on board is, in fact, a service animal, you may contact Guest Accessibility.

Your itinerary may include ports of call that have very specific and strict requirements that need to be met prior to your service animal being allowed off of the ship. Please be sure you understand the requirements for a service animal to disembark in each port of call. The best places to obtain specific information on required documentation and immunizations for your service animal are the U.S. Department of Agriculture's website, local customs offices in the specific ports, and from your service animal's veterinarian. All documentation and immunization requirements are established by government authorities and not by Seabourn. Should you need assistance in locating this information, please contact Guest Accessibility.

To board the ship, your service animal must have current vaccinations. Records confirming the vaccination status should be provided to Guest Accessibility prior to your departure. We also recommend that you carry the immunization records with you in case they are required at any port of call. If you do not have the proper documentation and proof of vaccinations for your service animal required at a port of call, or if there are local quarantine requirements, your service animal will be denied the right to leave the ship. If your service animal is denied the right to leave the ship in a specific port of call, the staff and crew will work with you to determine what actions may be possible to allow you to visit the port without your service animal. Please note that in your absence, you will need to provide for the care and supervision of your service animal. Except in those circumstances where your service animal has been denied disembarkation, you may not leave your service animal unattended on the vessel or in your suite at any time.

The Australian quarantine authorities have changed their approach regarding service dogs on-board cruise ships. Unfortunately, their new approach makes it practically impossible for us to accept service animals on domestic or roundtrip cruises from Australia. The Department of Agriculture now considers these cruises to be akin to an international voyage and therefore under ‘biosecurity control’. As a company, we are incredibly disappointed with the Department’s new approach, and we have written to the Federal Minister to ask for a return to their previous way of doing things. At this time guests will not be able to travel with service animals on voyages that end in Australia or call upon a port in Australia after visiting a foreign country. Guests sailing on voyages that begin in Australia will be able to sail with their service animal provided the voyage does not return to Australia after visiting a foreign port. Should you have further questions please contact Guest Accessibility via email at Access@Seabourn.com.

 

 

[skybluewaters]

The issue of service animals has become heated in recent years.  This is largely due to the expansion of the use of animals from their original cause (helping the blind) to then helping others who have less obvious needs (diabetics, seizure disorders, etc.) to finally "emotional support" animals. 

 

I believe this discussion reached its somewhat hilarious peak (or nadir) when someone tried to bring an emotional-support peacock aboard a United Airlines flight.  Now, most restaurants, airlines and other venues make a clear distinction between "service animals" and "emotional support" animals (as does Seabourn). 

 

Btw, I'm not making any judgement here as I don't have a dog in this fight.

[Isklaar]

4 minutes ago, skybluewaters said:

The issue of service animals has become heated in recent years.  This is largely due to the expansion of the use of animals from their original cause (helping the blind) to then helping others who have less obvious needs (diabetics, seizure disorders, etc.) to finally "emotional support" animals. 

 

I believe this discussion reached its somewhat hilarious peak (or nadir) when someone tried to bring an emotional-support peacock aboard a United Airlines flight.  Now, most restaurants, airlines and other venues make a clear distinction between "service animals" and "emotional support" animals (as does Seabourn). 

 

Btw, I'm not making any judgement here as I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

Oh my goodness!

[Cantara24]

I have sent some questions off to the accessibility email address from that SB website page. They are not specific to Sojourn situation but rather drill into the protocols in place on board.

Will see if it generates a response, not holding my breath.

[florisdekort]

I always travel with my pony.  😉

[Catlover54]

4 hours ago, lincslady said:

I had heard of the 'scam', used on another cruise line, whereby it is possible (at least in the USA) to get a spurious authorisation from a Dr.  declaring that a pet dog was indeed a service dog.  This is why I suggested that the owner would not be French,  but did not like to suggest that they were almost certainly American, as I feared the wrath of the majority of CC posters descending on me!

 

It is a shame that this thread has got so heated at times - pets, particularly dogs, can cause a lot of disagreements between avid dog lovers and those who may not actually dislike dogs, but do not wish to see them in what they see as inappropriate settings.  Incidentally, I have spent many holidays in France, speak French pretty well, and having nothing at all against the French people.

 

LOL!  I think it was quite clear that you were implying the dog's owner is an American, despite not having used that word.  🙂

 

 

[SLSD]

I just saw a photo of this particular dog in a post for one of the SB Facebook groups.  It is some kind of small spaniel looking dog.  Not a breed usually trained to be a service dog.  Someone in our extended family has a service dog who has been trained to alert to a child's seizures.  It is a much larger dog-- I believe a Belgian Malinois.  

Edited November 17, 2022 by SLSD

[Catlover54]

1 minute ago, SLSD said:

I just saw a photo of this particular dog in a post for one of the SB Facebook groups.  It is some kind of small spaniel looking dog.  Not a breed usually trained to be a service dog.  Someone in our extended family has a service dog who has been trained to alert to a child's seizures.  It is a much larger dog-- I believe a Belgian Malinois.  

 

There is no legal requirement that a dog be of a particular breed to be considered a service dog (though they are indeed usually larger because the larger dogs can do more "service") neither under ADA nor U.S.  public transportation rules.  It depends on what their "service" is. 

Small dogs held close to the body in a sling, for example,  are sometimes  used by diabetics.

 

 

 

 

[SLSD]

23 minutes ago, Catlover54 said:

 

There is no legal requirement that a dog be of a particular breed to be considered a service dog (though they are indeed usually larger because the larger dogs can do more "service") neither under ADA nor U.S.  public transportation rules.  It depends on what their "service" is. 

Small dogs held close to the body in a sling, for example,  are sometimes  used by diabetics.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm aware that there is no particular breed for service---but--certain breeds are  chosen  for their intelligence and trainability by those who are expert in training service dogs.  I have not seen this particular breed used--but perhaps they do not wear the usual harness/jacket if they are assisting diabetics and others, so they go unnoticed.  

[Catlover54]

2 hours ago, skybluewaters said:

The issue of service animals has become heated in recent years.  This is largely due to the expansion of the use of animals from their original cause (helping the blind) to then helping others who have less obvious needs (diabetics, seizure disorders, etc.) to finally "emotional support" animals. 

 

I believe this discussion reached its somewhat hilarious peak (or nadir) when someone tried to bring an emotional-support peacock aboard a United Airlines flight.  Now, most restaurants, airlines and other venues make a clear distinction between "service animals" and "emotional support" animals (as does Seabourn). 

 

Btw, I'm not making any judgement here as I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

Having been on planes where emotional support poorly trained dogs under seats would get into arguments with each other (necessitating exigent seat changes, e.g., when I was caught in between and feared getting injured in the crossbiting), I was very happy when the air transport authorities  in the U.S. modified/clarified their rules last year to

 

1) limit "service" animals to dogs and only dogs , and

2) now require the animal be a "service" animal and not just an emotional support animal (however, if a dog is trained to take a specific *action* in a psychiatric patient, that could be still considered a "service", depending on facts -- general comfort and happiness alone is not enough, but there can be disagreements in interpretation, and in motivation on how strict that interpretation should be. 

 

 

If anyone is interested, though we are straying off topic a bit, the  link below goes over the rules, and FAQ about the rules for airline travel with service animals (and also addresses why "emotional support" animals are now excluded).

 

 

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-announces-final-rule-traveling-air-service-animal

 

However, I still see poorly trained dogs masquerading as service animals in quite a few places, including medical clinics where dogs fight, chase each other, and come sniff patients' crotches  (but then again, I am in CA :)).

 Unfortunately, some people also have an official certified  "service" animal  but then arguably abuse the privilege by not using the animal for a service, and just have him as a pet.  My niece has been in a wheelchair since she was a child, with severely limited use of arms and legs; her parents waited years to get a very expensive, trained and certified "service" large  dog.  But  the only service he performed was taking off her socks (she is so physically disabled that she still needs humans with her anyway, so what is the point of a dog also being able to take off her socks?).  Still, she took him everywhere she went, proudly wearing the legitimate vest, because then people would look at her. She loves the attention, and being with the dog wherever she goes, and it is a sad situation, but arguably this is not really a "service" dog.  There are other similar situations.

 

SB would likely be legally protected just complying with rules like the airlines now  use, IF they were required for ships sailing to/from the U.S. and do not have more explicit rules. But ultimately some judgment is required, and SB may have chosen to go above and beyond and also accommodate someone with borderline needs, we simply do not know.   If they have done that, they will then obviously have to deal with all the unhpappy pax who do NOT want dogs on board (but those might just be told that if they don't want to be near a dog in SB Square, they should go elsewhere -- just like SB told people who did not want to be near smokers on the Venture that they should just go elsewhere and avoid them).

 

 

[johng75370]

1 hour ago, SLSD said:

I just saw a photo of this particular dog in a post for one of the SB Facebook groups.

Here is the picture you're referring to; nice looking dog:

[Catlover54]

1 minute ago, johng75370 said:

Here is the picture you're referring to; nice looking dog:

 

Yes, cute.

However, IF he is a service dog,  I do not see that sitting on a sofa meant for humans, (clearly away from his human),  instead of sitting on the floor, is required  for him to perform his "service", whatever it is.

 

[Isklaar]

2 minutes ago, johng75370 said:

Here is the picture you're referring to; nice looking dog:

 

Even nice looking dogs should not be permitted to sit on chairs in a public space. What owners choose to do in their own home is fine, but this is just a lack of respect for fellow guests.

 

[Isklaar]

2 minutes ago, Catlover54 said:

 

Yes, cute.

However, IF he is a service dog,  I do not see that sitting on a sofa meant for humans, (clearly away from his human),  instead of sitting on the floor, is required  for him to perform his "service", whatever it is.

 

Our friends on the ship have seen it twice in Seabourn Square and they said that both times the owner was seated at least a meter away from the dog.

[Catlover54]

1 minute ago, Isklaar said:

 

Even nice looking dogs should not be permitted to sit on chairs in a public space. What owners choose to do in their own home is fine, but this is just a lack of respect for fellow guests.

 

 

Since I'm a cat person, I don't know if poodles shed.  But I have to wonder how my black pants would look in back  if I were to unknowingly sit on that couch after the dog left!

[johng75370]

5 minutes ago, Isklaar said:

Even nice looking dogs should not be permitted to sit on chairs in a public space. What owners choose to do in their own home is fine, but this is just a lack of respect for fellow guests

100% agree; didn't mean to suggest that this is acceptable - it is not if the dog isn't a proper service animal.  Otherwise we'd end up with meeting fellow passengers like this at formal night:

Edited November 17, 2022 by johng75370

[Isklaar]

1 minute ago, Catlover54 said:

 

Since I'm a cat person, I don't know if poodles shed.  But I have to wonder how my black pants would look in back  if I were to unknowingly sit on that couch after the dog left!

 

I am a dog person who made the mistake of marrying someone who is hideously allergic to dogs (cats and horses too!). Apparently poodles are not allergenic (wrong word?) so I assume they do not shed much. 

[Isklaar]

2 minutes ago, johng75370 said:

100% agree; didn't mean to suggest that this is acceptable - it is not if the dog isn't a proper service animal.  Otherwise we'd end up with meeting fellow passengers like this at formal night:

 

Now that is cute. The purple brings out the colour of his/her eyes! 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Isklaar

[GUT2407]

21 minutes ago, Isklaar said:

 

I am a dog person who made the mistake of marrying someone who is hideously allergic to dogs (cats and horses too!). Apparently poodles are not allergenic (wrong word?) so I assume they do not shed much. 

I suspect Hypoallergenic could be the word you are looking for.

[Catlover54]

23 minutes ago, johng75370 said:

100% agree; didn't mean to suggest that this is acceptable - it is not if the dog isn't a proper service animal.  Otherwise we'd end up with meeting fellow passengers like this at formal night:

 

Even if the poodle  is a "service" animal, that does not mean he needs to sit on the couch.

[frantic36]

57 minutes ago, Catlover54 said:

 

Since I'm a cat person, I don't know if poodles shed.  But I have to wonder how my black pants would look in back  if I were to unknowingly sit on that couch after the dog left!

 

Poodles and Bichon Frise do not shed so clothing is safe from the fur. However I am a major dog lover and agree that dogs should not be sitting on furniture like this.