Noro-like outbreak on Viking River Cruise

[khuselid]

Hey all,

 

At the risk of becoming unpopular I wanted to discuss and outbreak of a Noro-type virus on our Viking River cruise. About 6 hours after the Thanksgiving meal many people became ill with gastro symptoms, my husband was one of them. He said it was the worst stomach thing he has ever had, it was bad and lasted about 48 hours. Our first thought was food poisoning as it seem connected to the meal and many got sick late that night or the next day. However it kept going and people kept getting sick. I got sick about 4 days after my husband so we started to sense that maybe it wasn't food related, but a virus. 

 

There were only 142 folks on the boat and you know how people talk. We met, at least, 20 people who had had the same symptoms and had been miserable. One woman ended up having to get medical attention for severe dehydration. As the days went on more and more people reported being sick. Folks were still getting sick the last day of the cruise and one woman was sick on the long bus ride to her extension trip after the cruise was over. 

 

What was astounding was Viking's lack of interest in this illness. We talked to several 'senior' crew with the idea that people needed to know so they could take better precautions. We suggested that maybe it was being spread through the self serve breakfast buffet. After I got really sick my husband went to the desk and suggested folks needed to be using hand sanitizer. They did make an announcement about that, but they didn't say why. Removing salt and pepper shakers and using single serving packets is something other cruiselines use to lessen the possibility of transmission. Buffets are notorious for getting anyone sick and Viking could easily have added servers to the buffet line in order to protect folks. 

 

When we, and others, spoke to staff they said they didn't want to 'ruin' peoples trips by talking about this happening. We said nothing can ruin a trip better than throwing up for 48 hours! It just seemed so odd to us. When people did get sick they were upset that they weren't aware that this was happening and would like to have known. Maybe it is asking too much, but it seems like Viking just wanted to ignore this illness and made no effort to lessen transmission. 

 

Wonder if you have all encountered this problem before. Please don't defend Viking. We had a great trip and appreciate Viking, but they are a business and may make another choice next time I want to cruise. I certainly will ask questions about what happens if there is a virus escalating among passengers and crew.

 

Thanks, kh

[Boatdrill]

Becoming ill on any trip  can really ruin an otherwise lovely time away from home. 

The numbers you gave suggest that at least 14% of the passengers were ill (the number of sick crew, if any, is unknown).

Viking staff not wanting to ruin people's cruise by talking about it seems so European to me. At the same time, I'd guess that Viking was trying to downplay the issue to avoid any hint of perceived liability.  

My time working in hotels and on cruise ships included the "never say your sorry" policy.  "Sorry" equals liability.   

Just curious...how long was your cruise ?  

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Boatdrill

[khuselid]

The cruise was 15 days.

[Coral]

I was on a ocean ship recently with quite a few people in COVID isolation cabins and a lot of people on the ship were coughing and appeared ill and nothing was said. I stopped going to crowded venues because it seemed like everyone was coughing.

 

There was a note in the cabin when we first started saying "to contact them if we felt ill" but beyond that - nothing was done.

 

I know not a river cruise but I think these lines just want to survive and are willing to look the other way in order to not offend passengers. Our trip was 16 nights.

 

I do find it interesting that previous to COVID, Noro was a big deal. Now it is barely mentioned.

 

I agree they should do what you expected. I was on an ocean cruise with over 6% affected in 2003 or 2004 (those who reported) and it was a huge deal.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Coral

[milling73]

It is a catch-22 situation for Viking. When they tested daily for COVID, and removed  anyone who tested positive to land hotel (thus end of their cruise). — the Viking policy caught so much criticism — with people cancelling cruises or not booking until the Policy ended in July. 
Traveling in general is and always has been, a risk of catching anything in confined groups - flights, bus, tours, or cruises. 
There is very little any company can do in illness situations that will appease everyone. Removing or confining ill passengers infuriates those involved and stops others from going; doing nothing infuriates those who think the Company should have enforced restrictions. In the end,  It really should be up to individuals to take their own precautions / accepted risk. 

[khuselid]

I totally understand the idea of accepted risk. What I don’t understand is why Viking didn’t do what they could do to protect any of us. We did go on a Viking ocean cruise last year (where we were being tested daily) and felt good that buffets were not self serve, then half way through that cruise they started lettering folks serve themselves. 
it just seems they aren’t understanding human nature very well at all. Some cruise lines never allow self service on buffets, I think those are better choices for me. 
We get colds while traveling, it’s inevitable. This gastro thing was intense and it seemed some could easily have been protected with a little knowledge. I do get they think it is bad press.
 

[Coral]

2 hours ago, khuselid said:

I totally understand the idea of accepted risk. What I don’t understand is why Viking didn’t do what they could do to protect any of us. We did go on a Viking ocean cruise last year (where we were being tested daily) and felt good that buffets were not self serve, then half way through that cruise they started lettering folks serve themselves. 
it just seems they aren’t understanding human nature very well at all. Some cruise lines never allow self service on buffets, I think those are better choices for me. 
We get colds while traveling, it’s inevitable. This gastro thing was intense and it seemed some could easily have been protected with a little knowledge. I do get they think it is bad press.
 

I agree with you and also with @milling73

 

It is a double edge sword. I booked an ocean cruise with certain criteria (everyone would be vaccinated, everyone would have to test before getting on the ship) and after final payment, it was dropped. I even scheduled my flight around testing so I would be able to test within the time period. I was irritated. We had a ton of illness onboard. So much so, I am not sure when I will cruise again right now.

 

I think transparency is the right thing to do. Notify the passengers there is an increase in cases and tell them they must wash their hands and use sanitizer before doing A, B or C. If you don't inform people, those who want to be compliant are not aware.

 

Right now - I am very unhappy with those individuals who are sick on ships and decide they don't care about others and carry on like they don't care if they infect others.

 

I think some lines were seriously hurting when they were following strict codes and while not Viking - some lines may not have survived another year of requirements. It is a no win situation. 

 

I also think the lines need to get away from self serve. It is not sanitary.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Coral

[sharkster77]

We took an 8 day land tour in June.  On the last night, an hour into the farewell dinner, the man sitting next to me, who we had not really socialized with much, leaned toward me and said "ya know, I felt pretty lousy a few days ago, but now I feel great!" 

 

WHY DO YOU TELL ME THIS?

 

Within 2 days of getting home, guess what---I came down with mild COVID, and my wife tested positive but was asymptomatic.  The tour company seemed disinterested when I told them this tale.

Edited December 7, 2022 by sharkster77

[khuselid]

8 hours ago, Coral said:

I was on a ocean ship recently with quite a few people in COVID isolation cabins and a lot of people on the ship were coughing and appeared ill and nothing was said. I stopped going to crowded venues because it seemed like everyone was coughing.

 

There was a note in the cabin when we first started saying "to contact them if we felt ill" but beyond that - nothing was done.

 

I know not a river cruise but I think these lines just want to survive and are willing to look the other way in order to not offend passengers. Our trip was 16 nights.

 

I do find it interesting that previous to COVID, Noro was a big deal. Now it is barely mentioned.

 

I agree they should do what you expected. I was on an ocean cruise with over 6% affected in 2003 or 2004 (those who reported) and it was a huge deal.

It is sad, isn't it, that folks can be so self centered. That happened on our cruise and folks actually said they weren't going to isolate because it would ruin their vacation. On that cruise there were many who did get covid. But, I guess that's why the virus took such hold in this world as people have trouble seeing beyond their own noses. 

[notamermaid]

Sorry to read that your river cruise was not as pleasant as it should have been and that you fell ill. I am a little puzzled but not alarmed by the procedure on board. It is possible and has happened in the past that a river cruise ship is put under quarantine order by the authorities when a norovirus outbreak is suspected. It normally means that a team of doctors checks on passengers and the ship remains in port without anyone being allowed on land. After assessment, the authorities can allow the ship to sail on even if many passengers are ill. Of course, I cannot say that Viking has done anything wrong here. I do not know procedures or regulations that need to be followed. It does not happen often that the authorities step in and I read about such an incident in the papers perhaps once or twice a year.

 

From what you describe though I would say that Viking could have been more forthcoming with info and be a bit more vigilant. I mean, what could be wrong with altering the dining room procedures? More awareness would have been good. Buffets are always a problem.

 

On my river cruise, the hotel staff were insistent that we use hand sanitizer every time we return to the ship and before entering the dining room.

 

notamermaid

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

4 hours ago, sharkster77 said:

We took an 8 day land tour in June.  On the last night, an hour into the farewell dinner, the man sitting next to me, who we had not really socialized with much, leaned toward me and said "ya know, I felt pretty lousy a few days ago, but now I feel great!" 

 

WHY DO YOU TELL ME THIS?

 

Within 2 days of getting home, guess what---I came down with mild COVID, and my wife tested positive but was asymptomatic.  The tour company seemed disinterested when I told them this tale.

And what did you think they could/should have done at that point?

[Coral]

2 hours ago, notamermaid said:

 

From what you describe though I would say that Viking could have been more forthcoming with info and be a bit more vigilant. I mean, what could be wrong with altering the dining room procedures? More awareness would have been good. Buffets are always a problem.

 

On my river cruise, the hotel staff were insistent that we use hand sanitizer every time we return to the ship and before entering the dining room.

 

In the US on ocean cruises (and maybe river cruises) - they must report to CDC if cases are above 3%. This only applies if they hit a US port.

[khuselid]

It was kind of interesting how they downplayed the number of people sick. Ostriches for sure. They told us only a couple of people were sick. We knew of at least 20 and are sure there were more. Like they just didn't want to know so they pretended like it wasn't happening. So weird.

[Coral]

45 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

And what did you think they could/should have done at that point?

They may have still been in contagious stage.... They should have said something up front and let the people move.

 

We had a tour in the Azores in a small vehicle. Two people on the tour had their friends cancel as "they were sick". I saw the couple later on the cruise and they were coughing and sick. We didn't find out until about 40 minutes into the tour. I wish they had told me up front as I would have walked away from the tour.

[Host Jazzbeau]

45 minutes ago, Coral said:

They may have still been in contagious stage.... They should have said something up front and let the people move.

 

We had a tour in the Azores in a small vehicle. Two people on the tour had their friends cancel as "they were sick". I saw the couple later on the cruise and they were coughing and sick. We didn't find out until about 40 minutes into the tour. I wish they had told me up front as I would have walked away from the tour.

I bolded the part of your earlier post that said the tour company wasn't interested 2 days AFTER you got home.  What do you think they could/should have done THEN?

[Coral]

48 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I bolded the part of your earlier post that said the tour company wasn't interested 2 days AFTER you got home.  What do you think they could/should have done THEN?

Sorry - I didn't expand it.

[milling73]

For sure, it is truly disappointing to be sick while on a vacation.  As personal precautions in our travels we avoid hotel or cruise buffet lines, and order off menu.  On our Viking cruises, We also eat most if not all meals on the Aquavite Terrace / dining area --- Smaller crowd, smaller tables, and we eat outside if we can. No doubt  it isn't a foolproof system, but if it was the buffet line that was the culprit in the illnesses on your trip, avoiding it, might have prevented some of the distress. But who knows, it could have been a virus transmitted through other means.  

Also Viking might not have had sufficient staff to put personal servers on the buffet line.  Our two cruises this summer had staff doing double duties, and training.  Crew we talked to said they were short-handed, especially in the kitchen.  We had a  young waiter in training who didn't speak English and was struggling with taking orders, and a bartender that had to look up how to make most mixed drinks.

[steamboats]

This is really an unusual reaction especially regarding the fact that in Germany you are obliged to report Noro virus outbreaks to the health authorities. Other than in the US WE don't have a Federal bureau like the CDC but it's the counties which are responsible regarding health issues (but it's a Federal law that you have to report the cases).

 

You didn't say where the ship was in Thanksgiving when it started. It's not that the is automatically seized by the authorities. It depends on the number of cases. But the authorities will definitely order sanitizing and cleaning or other things to prevent the spreading.

 

steamboats 

[ural guy]

On our recent Vantage cruise, they had little plastic gloves to use so you wouldn't be directly touching serving spoons in buffet line.  They had pretty good compliance.  We were lucky in that we only had 122 passengers with capacity being 176.  

 

For the most part it seemed like people just had the normal post flight coughs.  Worst experience was in Budapest airport waiting to check-in.  Another lady (American) had to comment on everything, loudly, at 0345.  Either negative or passive aggressive nonsense, like she was in a bubble and no one else could hear her.  While coughing, pondering if they should wear masks.  In between berating her 2 young teenagers.  Luckily they were not on our flight, but at the adjacent gate, by boarding time 3 of the 5 were coughing.

 

The airport and plane were the only times we wore our N-95 masks, along with the Vienna public transpo system that required them.

[notamermaid]

7 hours ago, steamboats said:

This is really an unusual reaction especially regarding the fact that in Germany you are obliged to report Noro virus outbreaks to the health authorities.

That is what I was trying to hint at in my post. It is not clear what virus it was but if Viking suspected anything they should have reported it. I am just not familiar with the specific regulations or procedures. I will not say that Viking did anything wrong but I am not convinced they did everything correctly either. Does the IG River Cruise give procedures that one can look up as a passenger? I think they are "voluntary obligations" that the members adhere to.

 

That would be independent of the German authorities. The regulations of the association would apply to the ship, whether it was in Hungary or Germany or elsewhere at the time. I expect the OP did the Grand European, seeing that it was 15 days.

 

notamermaid

 

[steamboats]

Not sure whether IG River Cruise has any regulations and whether they are published online. But it´s common standard to remove anything which can be touched by more than one person, set up hand sanitizers (and place someone next to them to force the passengers to use them) or sanitize any surfaces (especially handrails or elevators). That´s what everyone did when river cruising restarted after the shut down. Many of those measures were already existant (mainly because of Noro). 

 

The main problem with reporting Noro virus is that a doctor needs to be involved (to get samples and prove it´s Noro). So usually on river cruises it´s only "detected" when the amount of sick passengers really gets high and some passengers need help of a doctor or need to be hospitalized. That´s usually the moment a ship is locked down by the authorities. But when you only have a small amount of sick passengers at a time and don´t have to call a local doctor... the ship has moved to the next port in another county or even state here in Germany... And as we all learned with Covid-19 here in Germany the communication between those local health authorities is the tricky part.

 

steamboats 

[Coral]

I know some Celebrity ships (ocean) had huge norovrius outbreaks several years ago in Europe and it didn't have to be reported due to being in Europe. Not sure what the rules are in this situation.

[LibertyBella]

If you think about how norovirus spreads, it usually starts with an infected person contaminating surfaces, foods, or others with direct contact.  Often the cause is unsanitary food workers preparing the foods. Unfortunately the virus can linger for a while.  It is very different from the flu or Covid.

 

I would say I would probably avoid fresh foods once I knew there was an outbreak, and keep my distance from those who are ill.  My husband still carries and constantly uses hand sanitizer, and I would recommend that before touching any shared utensils. I might also avoid public bathrooms, or touching handrails.

 

Did you want the ship to stop the cruise, kick everybody off, sanitize everything, and throw away all fresh food?  I suppose they were just letting the illness runs its course if it was not severe...

 

I have had real food poisoning in Egypt, Spain and Mexico, (and Chicago!) with fevers and chills, and had to go a few days without eating until everything passed through my system.  Travel is always a risk, and health issues can always be a concern.

 

 

[steamboats]

@Coral the ocean vessels do not have to report to the CDC when they don´t depart from a US port (neither Noro nor Covid-19).

 

steamboats

[Coral]

4 hours ago, steamboats said:

@Coral the ocean vessels do not have to report to the CDC when they don´t depart from a US port (neither Noro nor Covid-19).

 

steamboats

Correct. I said that in an earlier post.

 

My reference to "I don't know what the rules" are was in reference to Europe. Do they have to report anything if they dock in any European port to any European country? Does the UK have similar rules? Or are there no rules in Europe?

Edited December 9, 2022 by Coral