Gratuity fee

[skipsaur]

19 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

Have you ever gotten a bonus at work? Free lunch even…that’s a tip. 

 

Bonuses come from the employer. As for a free lunch, I feel like that's still a bit off the mark. If I gave a sandwich to my waiter, I think you'd be calling me out for stiffing them, no? 😂

 

[skipsaur]

1 hour ago, perakcruiser said:

It is very simple, the DSC is mandatory in almost all of MSC markets, you cannot remove it even if a staff member beats you or your kids😄 And it is listed in the final price already at the booking. 

 

There is one big exception, that is the US market. Here MSC follows the local practice of advertising a fake price that has nothing to do with reality, DSC is missing, taxes and fees are missing. That is plain stupid, but seems to be legal in the US. So the cruise lines have these "low" prices.

 

There is only one reason why MSC is doing this, because probably US pax mostly are not deleting the DSC even if they could. 

 

For the staff it makes no difference, if the US pax would start to delete the DSC, MSC has to compensate and would anyway immediately make it mandatory also for this market. 

 

I think this post says everything that needs to be said about the topic, in a much better way than my attempts!

[insidecabin]

14 hours ago, JamieLogical said:

I really think this all comes out in the wash. If the cruise line charges a "gratuity" to subsidize crew salaries and we all start having the DSC removed from our accounts, then the cruise line will just start raising prices to pay crew more directly in order to retain them. Either way, we will end up paying money for the cruise line to retain employees. Why does it really matter if it's included in the cruise dare or in a DSC? It's still all going to be the same amount of money.... 

When P&O rolled there service/grat/tips into the base fare at that time entry fare was around £50pppd(fare/taxes) it stayed around that when the grats were added.

 

Since  return 2021 the late sale rates have gone lower.

eg. 14n now at £600pp has been happening.

 

Also since MSC entered the UK market properly with Virtuosa(brand new ship later this year) grats inclusive fares, the premium drinks as the discounted add-on, along with  regular kids go free and very good solo deals which are now a lot more common on other lines selling in the UK.

 

Reality is the total fare is driven by demand not costs. 

The prices are set as high as people will pay that's why they are different in different regions.

 

The obfucation by complicating the fare structure must be seen to get more money off the customer maybe the low base fare sucks people, in the UK it puts people off.

 

Many just stick with Marella a cruise line that is a one stop shop everything included flights grats drinks they get good money for their cruises.

 

 

[MacGuffin3]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:46 AM, JamieLogical said:

If the cruise line charges a "gratuity" to subsidize crew salaries and we all start having the DSC removed from our accounts, then the cruise line will just start raising prices to pay crew more directly in order to retain them. Why does it really matter if it's included in the cruise dare or in a DSC? ... 

Because some of us support truth in advertising.  If a trip is advertised at a certain price, it should not cost you more than that price.

[Mark_T]

4 hours ago, MacGuffin3 said:

Because some of us support truth in advertising.  If a trip is advertised at a certain price, it should not cost you more than that price.

This is a market problem, not a specific cruise line problem...

 

If we book a cruise with MSC in the UK then the price shown is inclusive of everything, no extra sales tax or port charges or gratuities etc.

 

The US market seems to demand the unbundled pricing to allow the cruise lines to compete on the lowest headline price... Like it or not, the US has this problem everywhere, from retail where the prices do not include sales tax, to restaurants where 18-20% tip is assumed and built into staff wages and taxation. Cruises are no different...

[insidecabin]

1 hour ago, Mark_T said:

This is a market problem, not a specific cruise line problem...

 

If we book a cruise with MSC in the UK then the price shown is inclusive of everything, no extra sales tax or port charges or gratuities etc.

 

The US market seems to demand the unbundled pricing to allow the cruise lines to compete on the lowest headline price... Like it or not, the US has this problem everywhere, from retail where the prices do not include sales tax, to restaurants where 18-20% tip is assumed and built into staff wages and taxation. Cruises are no different...

Our first post covid visit to the US last  we noticed many POS payment systems, unlike most of the word where a small contactless payment machine is used,   had them the size of an Ipad and big boxes for tips with  presets they would often start at 20% and go up maybe 3-4 options like 25% 30%, the no tip/other button was tiny. 

[JamieLogical]

30 minutes ago, insidecabin said:

Our first post covid visit to the US last  we noticed many POS payment systems, unlike most of the word where a small contactless payment machine is used,   had them the size of an Ipad and big boxes for tips with  presets they would often start at 20% and go up maybe 3-4 options like 25% 30%, the no tip/other button was tiny. 

 

My favorite example of this: I was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC in April, between my two sailings on the Meraviglia. There is a little cafe there where you can grab ready-to-eat items off a shelf or out of a cooler. My husband and I grabbed a little box of chocolate chip mini muffins off the shelf and then asked the cashier for coffee. She handed us two empty coffee cups to go over and fill ourselves from a carafe off to the side. The exorbitant price for the box of 4 mini-muffins and two cups of self-serve coffee was something $22 and on top of that, the point of sale machine prompted us to supply a tip, the minimum amount for which was 20%. I am sorry, but I have to draw the line somewhere. I am not going to tip 20% on some super inflated price for handing me two empty coffee cups.

[Bgwest]

As long as merchants (landslide and seaside) perceive their customers (us!!) to be sheep, they will continue in their attempts to fleece us. 
 

Until such time as “tipping guilt” is no longer  effective in separating us from our $, I will unreservedly hit the “no tip” button at the POS terminals and will summarily continue to remove their pathetic DSC. (Let the hate begin!)
 

 

[MacGuffin3]

5 hours ago, Mark_T said:

This is a market problem, not a specific cruise line problem...

A mandatory $80 daily DSC, and mandatory 20% on a "make-believe" list price of $110 a day for drinks, is a specific NCL problem.  It's not a business practice I want to support.

Your comparisons are not equivalent.  Sales tax in the USA, which I'm not fan of, and don't have to worry about here in Oregon, is not included in the price because it is different in every state, and sometimes different in cities within that state.  That is very different from a national VAT.

The only place in the USA now where a 15% tip is  'essentially' mandatory is in those few states left where servers make less than minimum wage.  Here on the west coast now, everybody earns at least $15 an hour and up and a backlash is starting as many people are starting to get sick of the extortion on every screen they see these days.

The only thing that's really comparable are hotel "resort fees" that often aren't revealed to you until the final click, but legally they still have to be revealed pretty prominently, unlike DSC which you have to read through a myriad of tiny print to discover your vacation is actually going to cost an additional $1000.

So yes in summary, I put the blame on NCL. not the USA.

Edited June 12, 2023 by MacGuffin3

[Mark_T]

44 minutes ago, MacGuffin3 said:

So yes in summary, I put the blame on NCL. not the USA.

Can't really comment on an NCL issue in an MSC thread, but you have to recognise that this practice is pretty much only happening in the US market, and it isn't only one cruise line, it is most if not all of them...

 

I certainly would be happy to see it change, as it is not even legal in many other territories, but unless and until it becomes legally necessary to stop doing it in the US, it is likely to continue...

[MacGuffin3]

6 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

until it becomes legally necessary to stop doing it in the US, it is likely to continue...

 

Consumers have a bigger voice than govt, as Bud Light can probably tell you.  Yes, it is a competitive pricing tactic in the USA across all the lines, but some are worse than others.  So if you want a change, support the companies which do it less egregiously. 

[Mark_T]

3 minutes ago, MacGuffin3 said:

 

Consumers have a bigger voice than govt, as Bud Light can probably tell you.  Yes, it is a competitive pricing tactic in the USA across all the lines, but some are worse than others.  So if you want a change, support the companies which do it less egregiously. 

No argument there, pick a different cruise line if their policies offend and if enough people do it then things may change.

 

Is there a mass market line selling in the US that doesn't price in this way though?

 

I remember the bad old days when every cruise line advertised 'second guest sails free' and just doubled the fare for the first guest... 🙂

 

Many of the cruise promotions still feel like they haven't moved too far from that tactic...

 

Not you I know, but anyone sticking with the cruise line despite the policy should not then use it as an excuse to stiff the crew...

[MacGuffin3]

2 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

should not then use it as an excuse to stiff the crew...

 

The crew make a salary. How are they being stiffed?  With over 80% retention in the cruise industry, they must be doing ok in comparison to their other options or they would quit.  The company guarantees them a minimum salary, so the company will be the ones who have to make up for it if the coerced tips fall short of their expectations. So not paying the DSC is just another way to encourage them to change their pricing decisions.

[Mark_T]

1 minute ago, MacGuffin3 said:

 So not paying the DSC is just another way to encourage them to change their pricing decisions.

I preferred  it when you took the high-ground with...

 

21 minutes ago, MacGuffin3 said:

So if you want a change, support the companies which do it less egregiously. 

The crew apparently get a guaranteed minimum tip component in their check, but they will get more if the DSC is not removed.

 

Using the ability to remove it for no valid service related reason, is not a vote for change, it is exploiting a loop-hole for your own advantage, and to the disadvantage of the crew and the cruise line, can't punish one without punishing both.

 

There is more honor in picking a different line if you disagree with the pricing policy....

 

 

[MacGuffin3]

8 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

I preferred  it when you took the high-ground with...

Says you, it's "the high ground."  Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
I say the DSC amount has now completely gotten out of hand, and it is preventing more people from cruising, and resentment towards the companies. So by not paying it, and hopefully causing a change, it will lead to a transparent pricing structure in the future, which will ultimately be good for the employees as more people will be cruising.

So sorry, but I will not cede the high ground on this one.

Edited June 12, 2023 by MacGuffin3

[Bgwest]

1 hour ago, MacGuffin3 said:

as many people are starting to get sick of the extortion on every screen they see these days.

Extortion. 
What a delightfully perfect word choice!!

[perakcruiser]

19 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

Using the ability to remove it for no valid service related reason, is not a vote for change, it is exploiting a loop-hole for your own advantage, and to the disadvantage of the crew and the cruise line, can't punish one without punishing both.

Well, it is the cruise lines that use or used a loop-hole for their advantage with the service charge. Actually in most European countries it was not a loop-hole, it was illegal. So they were sued by consumer protection organisations (and they sued each other, MSC sued Costa for their service charge), now it is included in the cruise price as it should. 

[PTC DAWG]

1 hour ago, perakcruiser said:

Well, it is the cruise lines that use or used a loop-hole for their advantage with the service charge. Actually in most European countries it was not a loop-hole, it was illegal. So they were sued by consumer protection organisations (and they sued each other, MSC sued Costa for their service charge), now it is included in the cruise price as it should. 

Last thing I want is the Govt worried about my cruise prices.  It's none of their business.  People know the costs going in.  IF they don't, they are just uninformed, unaware, etc...not enough Govt intervention in the world to fix that.  

Edited June 12, 2023 by PTC DAWG

[insidecabin]

On 6/12/2023 at 5:15 PM, MacGuffin3 said:

A mandatory $80 daily DSC, and mandatory 20% on a "make-believe" list price of $110 a day for drinks, is a specific NCL problem.  It's not a business practice I want to support.
..........
So yes in summary, I put the blame on NCL. not the USA.

They are not mandatory both are optional

 

The latter is just a way in the US to invent a reduced cost(20%) for a drinks package it works out around the same as in the regions where they charge a fee,  if you don't like it don't get.

 

the only cruise line I know that makes not included service mandatory is Costa.

this is on every step of the booking process(UK)

Mandatory service fees (prepaid or charged on board the Ship) are not included in the price. Adults €11 per night.

[mackfam]

The first cruise that DH and I took with our 4 kids back in 2005, we were unaware of the DSC, and it came as a shock to have an extra $420 added onto our bill at the end of the cruise. At that time we did not understand the concept and asked for it to be removed for 2 of our kids. Now we realize the benefit to the crew and have never removed it since that first time. I would prefer it be included in the cruise price, and for many years chose to sail on Celebrity with their drinks and tips included fares (until their prices skyrocketed) but at least we are aware of the extra costs going in now. We don’t begrudge paying the DSC but we rarely give extra tips unless someone goes above and beyond.

 

As far as tipping on land goes, I 100% agree with this

 

On 6/12/2023 at 1:15 PM, MacGuffin3 said:

many people are starting to get sick of the extortion on every screen they see these days.

The daughter of a good friend works at one of the more popular high end restaurants in our city and regularly makes $800 or more in tips on a weekend night on top of her wage. She has just bought a house in a market where many double income couples can not do the same.  I don’t understand the compulsion to give someone who is just doing their job, and nothing more, a 15-20% gift. Pretty soon we’ll be seeing tip options at the supermarket checkout.

 

[insidecabin]

3 hours ago, mackfam said:

The first cruise that DH and I took with our 4 kids back in 2005, we were unaware of the DSC, and it came as a shock to have an extra $420 added onto our bill at the end of the cruise. At that time we did not understand the concept and asked for it to be removed for 2 of our kids. Now we realize the benefit to the crew and have never removed it since that first time. I would prefer it be included in the cruise price, and for many years chose to sail on Celebrity with their drinks and tips included fares (until their prices skyrocketed) but at least we are aware of the extra costs going in now. We don’t begrudge paying the DSC but we rarely give extra tips unless someone goes above and beyond.

 

As far as tipping on land goes, I 100% agree with this

 

The daughter of a good friend works at one of the more popular high end restaurants in our city and regularly makes $800 or more in tips on a weekend night on top of her wage. She has just bought a house in a market where many double income couples can not do the same.  I don’t understand the compulsion to give someone who is just doing their job, and nothing more, a 15-20% gift. Pretty soon we’ll be seeing tip options at the supermarket checkout.

 

Its the same for those working cruises.

 

They are buying land building houses back home.

[MacGuffin3]

16 hours ago, mackfam said:

The daughter of a good friend works at one of the more popular high end restaurants in our city and regularly makes $800 or more in tips on a weekend night on top of her wage. 

This is one of the biggest "secrets" of tipping which servers generally keep close to the vest.  At upscale and very busy restaurants, they make bank, often more than the people who are throwing money at them, and mostly tax free.  In the major West Coast cities now their base "minimum wage" hourly salary starts over $15.

I can't think of any justification for an $80 a day tip for a single cabin. For that price they shouldn't just be changing the sheets, they should be providing us with brand new silk ones every day.  They need more transparent honest pricing, so I feel no remorse in removing the DSC.

[Illbcruzn4life]

17 minutes ago, MacGuffin3 said:

This is one of the biggest "secrets" of tipping which servers generally keep close to the vest.  At upscale and very busy restaurants, they make bank, often more than the people who are throwing money at them, and mostly tax free.  In the major West Coast cities now their base "minimum wage" hourly salary starts over $15.

I can't think of any justification for an $80 a day tip for a single cabin. For that price they shouldn't just be changing the sheets, they should be providing us with brand new silk ones every day.  They need more transparent honest pricing, so I feel no remorse in removing the DSC.

$80 a day?

[KennyFla]

Knowing that the DSC does not go to the crew as tips, and that has been debated before on here, it would seem to be better to remove it and give the members of the crew cash as in the old days. 
 

Disagree that this would mean an automatic increase in the cruise prices, MSC is positioning themselves as the low cost line.  If they are indeed not sharing the DSC they are only using it to prop up their margins. 
 

And no I don’t want the government getting involved.  I can figure out the price of my cruise 

[perakcruiser]

2 hours ago, KennyFla said:

Knowing that the DSC does not go to the crew as tips, and that has been debated before on here, it would seem to be better to remove it and give the members of the crew cash as in the old days. 

Certainly this is the worst idea because you just take the money away from some cruise members and give it all to a few. With  no reason. This is why individual tipping is not "recommended" by MSC and the other cruise lines, they have all the hassle to reduce the salary for the tip winner and increase for tip losers.