No more classical music?!

[cruisemom42]

7 hours ago, JAVERZ said:

As such, we will have a resident classical trio on Zuiderdam's Grand World Voyage, although not under the Lincoln Center Stage brand.  We'll feature a resident classical ensemble on all Grand & Legendary cruises starting in 2024."

 

Funny, they have certainly walked back that concept of having classical music back this summer, if only on a rotating ship basis. 🙄

 

This kind of decision by HAL management just enrages me. So...only guests on the longest most special cruises deserve to be able to listen to Classical music? 

 

I can MAYBE understand not having this on the shortest of cruises. But I don't take short cruises; I don't take inexpensive cruises. It really gets to me that HAL doesn't seem to care about this segment of cruisers. Ever since I started cruising HAL I've been told "X is only available on longer cruises."  But HAL, if that's the case, stop advertising it in a way that sounds like it is widely available.

 

My next cruise is on Oceania. I know some here like them and some do not. But one thing I will enjoy on my 17 day cruise is daily classical music onboard.

 

[CineGraphic]

Licensing cost big $$$, and CCL still has a ton of debt to pay off.

They can easily have a classical music venue without the tie-in, but cruise lines love to drop names.

[iceman93]

24 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

This kind of decision by HAL management just enrages me. So...only guests on the longest most special cruises deserve to be able to listen to Classical music? 

I'm certainly not defending HAL's decision here; I assume they have a rationale based on facts and revenue metrics that backs it up.  And you know what they say happens when one ASSUMEs something.  😁

 

My complaint is the flip side of yours--the lack of Club HAL (or I guess, as they're calling it now, "Kid's Club") on longer cruises.  Sure, there may be fewer children on longer voyages but there are certainly some, and one could argue those are the cruises when on-board child care would be most appreciated.

[ExpatBride]

6 hours ago, iceman93 said:

My complaint is the flip side of yours--the lack of Club HAL (or I guess, as they're calling it now, "Kid's Club") on longer cruises.  Sure, there may be fewer children on longer voyages but there are certainly some, and one could argue those are the cruises when on-board child care would be most appreciated.

 

If they're cutting classical music because... "expenses," they certainly aren't going to staff up childcare for a handful of kids.

[Hlitner]

11 hours ago, ldtr said:

Sure those that pay for yacht club get treated nicely the large majority of the thousand on board MSC cannot make the same claim.

 

One of the biggest limitations a cruise ship face is crew quarter spaces. If they add crew for a given function, they have to reduce crew allocated to another. Easier to hide the limitation in a large ship, not so easy on a smaller ship. Premium and Luxury charge enough that they can get by with a few less paying cabins and allocate the  square feet to more crew space.

 

When Celebrity went ship with in a ship the increased requirements in staffing there coincided with a smaller CD staff and some reduction in some of the public area staffing.

You will not get an argument with me about Celebrity.  We stopped cruising that line shortly after Lisa Lutoff-Perlo took over and started her "death by a thousand cut-backs."  Their retreat suites (not truly a ship within a ship) are the least of the problems.  MSC, on the other hand, designed their newer ships with the Yacht Club as part of the design package.  All of our MSC cruises have been on ships that were completely full!  Folks on that line can choose to pay for the YC, or they can make the choice for an inexpensive cruise in the lowest "experiences."  NCL has done a similar thing with their newer ships and Haven Suites.  This is simply a matter with allocating more space (and staff) to folks willing to pay for it.  

 

Consider that HAL seems to have reduced staff without having a ship within a ship.  Wine stewards are gone, assistant waiters are few, cabin stewards now have many more cabins to clean, Club HAL seems to have disappeared on longer cruises, etc.  They have eliminated their Production Shows (4 singers and usually 8 or so dancers) including the production staff, replaced live entertainment with documentary movies and slide shows (history of HAL), eliminated the Lincoln Center Stage folks, etc.  So when you try to equate "ship within a ship" with staff reductions for everyone else, that is not really the issue on ships designed with this concept.  

 

As to Celebrity, they seem to be doing quite well with bookings (I do not think they are giving away cabins to gamblers to the extent of HAL) and somehow sell those outrageously expensive retreat suites.  To be honest, we would book a retreat suite on Celebrity (Lisa is now gone) but it is actually less expensive (and nicer)  to cruise on luxury lines such as Seabourn.  On Celebrity, when compared to HAL,  we would have more decent dining choices, Production Shows, life after 10pm, etc.  While we are not big fans of the current Celebrity, we see that line as a better choice than HAL.  As long time HAL cruisers we do hope they get back to the HAL we used to adore...after which we will happily return.  And by the way, you will not see Celebrity offering $1 deposits!  That kind of sale is born out of desperation.

 

Our claim to fame as a cruise passenger is we walk the walk (we cruise on many different lines) and do not rely on hearsay.  When we talk about MSCs Yacht Club it is because we have cruised on their ships.  When we talk about the decline of HAL, it is because we recently came off a 42 day HAL cruise and have over 500 days on the line.  As to "ship within a ship,"  this is nothing new (except in name only) as lines have had a class structure for eons.  Just consider Cunard, who has long had classes and now their "grill" suites.  HAL has their lame structure with the Neptune Lounge, a Concierge, etc.  HAL has an honor bar in the Neptune Lounge, but their competition provides real bar tenders with included drinks!   And now they have even watered-down suite privileges by letting anyone spend a few extra dollars for Club Orange?   Those HAL fans who deny these changes are likely the same who previously thought that HAL would never build 100,000 ton vessels.

 

And since you mentioned CD staff (something about which we have little interest) we have been on HAL cruises where the entire CD department is only 2 or 3 people.  On MSC, when they introduce the CD department the folks fill half the stage,  On our Seashore cruise I recall they had at least 14 in their CD department,  At the time, I was actually shocked and no idea they had those kind of numbers   We later took a look at their children's and teen's clubs, and those spaces are amazing with tons of staff.  The kids have programs that operate from early morning until very late at night.  We met a few teens (in the YCs lounge) who told us they loved the teen program and were learning to speak Italian!  Kind of a cute idea, which fits the international atmosphere.  

 

Meanwhile, on HAL we have the always empty Lincoln Center Stage and seldom utilized main stage!  Talk about a waste of space.

 

Hank

 

 

[mcrcruiser]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

You will not get an argument with me about Celebrity.  We stopped cruising that line shortly after Lisa Lutoff-Perlo took over and started her "death by a thousand cut-backs."  Their retreat suites (not truly a ship within a ship) are the least of the problems.  MSC, on the other hand, designed their newer ships with the Yacht Club as part of the design package.  All of our MSC cruises have been on ships that were completely full!  Folks on that line can choose to pay for the YC, or they can make the choice for an inexpensive cruise in the lowest "experiences."  NCL has done a similar thing with their newer ships and Haven Suites.  This is simply a matter with allocating more space (and staff) to folks willing to pay for it.  

 

Consider that HAL seems to have reduced staff without having a ship within a ship.  Wine stewards are gone, assistant waiters are few, cabin stewards now have many more cabins to clean, Club HAL seems to have disappeared on longer cruises, etc.  They have eliminated their Production Shows (4 singers and usually 8 or so dancers) including the production staff, replaced live entertainment with documentary movies and slide shows (history of HAL), eliminated the Lincoln Center Stage folks, etc.  So when you try to equate "ship within a ship" with staff reductions for everyone else, that is not really the issue on ships designed with this concept.  

 

As to Celebrity, they seem to be doing quite well with bookings (I do not think they are giving away cabins to gamblers to the extent of HAL) and somehow sell those outrageously expensive retreat suites.  To be honest, we would book a retreat suite on Celebrity (Lisa is now gone) but it is actually less expensive (and nicer)  to cruise on luxury lines such as Seabourn.  On Celebrity, when compared to HAL,  we would have more decent dining choices, Production Shows, life after 10pm, etc.  While we are not big fans of the current Celebrity, we see that line as a better choice than HAL.  As long time HAL cruisers we do hope they get back to the HAL we used to adore...after which we will happily return.  And by the way, you will not see Celebrity offering $1 deposits!  That kind of sale is born out of desperation.

 

Our claim to fame as a cruise passenger is we walk the walk (we cruise on many different lines) and do not rely on hearsay.  When we talk about MSCs Yacht Club it is because we have cruised on their ships.  When we talk about the decline of HAL, it is because we recently came off a 42 day HAL cruise and have over 500 days on the line.  As to "ship within a ship,"  this is nothing new (except in name only) as lines have had a class structure for eons.  Just consider Cunard, who has long had classes and now their "grill" suites.  HAL has their lame structure with the Neptune Lounge, a Concierge, etc.  HAL has an honor bar in the Neptune Lounge, but their competition provides real bar tenders with included drinks!   And now they have even watered-down suite privileges by letting anyone spend a few extra dollars for Club Orange?   Those HAL fans who deny these changes are likely the same who previously thought that HAL would never build 100,000 ton vessels.

 

And since you mentioned CD staff (something about which we have little interest) we have been on HAL cruises where the entire CD department is only 2 or 3 people.  On MSC, when they introduce the CD department the folks fill half the stage,  On our Seashore cruise I recall they had at least 14 in their CD department,  At the time, I was actually shocked and no idea they had those kind of numbers   We later took a look at their children's and teen's clubs, and those spaces are amazing with tons of staff.  The kids have programs that operate from early morning until very late at night.  We met a few teens (in the YCs lounge) who told us they loved the teen program and were learning to speak Italian!  Kind of a cute idea, which fits the international atmosphere.  

 

Meanwhile, on HAL we have the always empty Lincoln Center Stage and seldom utilized main stage!  Talk about a waste of space.

 

Hank

 

 

Hank you said the truth . Because ,my DW can not fly any longer we do cruise a HAK ship from San  Diego ,our home port  . But ,this March we went to San Pedro to sail B2B Soltice from Celebrity .The Celebrity we started with way back when is gone ;however ,we did  see very good main stage shows nightly during the 14 days we sailed .The food in the MDR dinners was better than we experienced recently on HAL .We di get a casino deal with free  gratuities ,the top drink package & Free tio of the line Wifi   .What we do not see any longer is Ahi Tuna in the healthy lounge near the pool lwhich we once had for lunches ,so things have changed with Celebrity but ,imo not nearly the cut backs that have occurred with HAL .

 There are people on this roll call that would prefer that you & I & a dew others would not post about the HAL shortcomings ,They prefer their dream & never reality .They will attack as I have witnessed .Instead of reasoning they attack & flame .We do not need to list their names for they know who they are .I respect your views 

 Cliff

 

 

[PACD_JG]

9 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

Hank you said the truth . Because ,my DW can not fly any longer we do cruise a HAK ship from San  Diego ,our home port  . But ,this March we went to San Pedro to sail B2B Soltice from Celebrity .The Celebrity we started with way back when is gone ;however ,we did  see very good main stage shows nightly during the 14 days we sailed .The food in the MDR dinners was better than we experienced recently on HAL .We di get a casino deal with free  gratuities ,the top drink package & Free tio of the line Wifi   .What we do not see any longer is Ahi Tuna in the healthy lounge near the pool lwhich we once had for lunches ,so things have changed with Celebrity but ,imo not nearly the cut backs that have occurred with HAL .

 There are people on this roll call that would prefer that you & I & a dew others would not post about the HAL shortcomings ,They prefer their dream & never reality .They will attack as I have witnessed .Instead of reasoning they attack & flame .We do not need to list their names for they know who they are .I respect your views 

 Cliff

 

 

 

But HAL doesn't have to change a DAM thing because you keep making bookings!  The definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.  But keep on trolling...

[cruisemom42]

I have been thinking over a few of the justifications about space that have been posted as reasons for potentially discontinuing the LCS/Classical music performances.

 

If space utilization were such a burning reason to end these performances, why has this space been sitting empty on some ships since mid to end of April?

 

Also, on Westerdam prior to LCS "closing up shop" and leaving, the space where they played was also utilized for art auctions. So they are "monetizing" the space to a degree -- and could do more if they had more to offer (which they currently don't).

 

 

 

[CineGraphic]

As contracts expire, don't be surprised if the other venues lose their names. BB King's, Rolling Stone etc....the licensing of these names doesn't come cheaply. CCL has HUGE debt. You can still have a blues club without BB's name.

[Hlitner]

I want to be clear and fair which means that we should asknowledge that there have  been cut-backs (some of it starting even before COVID) on nearly all of the mass market lines.  The only exception is that we did not notice any cut-backs when we cruised on MSC (Yacht Club) last October (14 days in the Caribbean).  We also thought it was interesting that the various shortages (attributed by the cruise lines to supply chain issues) did not seem to be an issue on MSC.  We have experienced shortages on our most recent HAL, Princess, and Seabourn cruises.  On Seabourn, when we were on the Ovation for a month, they quickly ran out of all their bourbons (and they have many) except for Wild Turkey!  But that happened just after leaving Florida and they did restock once we got to Europe.

 

As to luxury lines, we noticed very little change on Seabourn!  But, there have been some CC posts that are not very complementary to that line.  We will soon be back aboard Seabourn and will be able to evaluate if anything has gone downhill since our last cruise about 1 year ago.

 

At this point, being cruise addicts with no true loyalty to any line, we are simply making the "rounds" of many lines to determine which is the best value (not cheapest) for us.  If Explora 1 ever sails, we will finally determine if that new line lives up to the hype.  We look forward to trying O's new ship next spring (the Vista) although their fans have done some complaining about cut-backs.  Princess has continued to be one of our favorite mass market lines, and although we have noticed some cut-backs we still find it far superior to HAL (others disagree).  We do want to get back to Azamara (it has been a few years since our last cruise) although we are not big fans of the old "R" ships and their tiny cabin bathrooms.

 

At times, I am puzzled by some of my fellow HAL cruising friends.  Several of them have told us that they agree that HAL has gone downhill, but they continue to book the line.  In my world, when a product degrades it is time to move on to other products.  At this time, the only positive thing we can say about HAL is that they do have some terrific itineraries and their pricing (for most cruises) is reasonable when compared to much of the competition.

 

Hank

[mcrcruiser]

21 minutes ago, PACD_JG said:

 

But HAL doesn't have to change a DAM thing because you keep making bookings!  The definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.  But keep on trolling...

It is my opinion that counts

[ExpatBride]

26 minutes ago, CineGraphic said:

As contracts expire, don't be surprised if the other venues lose their names. BB King's, Rolling Stone etc....the licensing of these names doesn't come cheaply. CCL has HUGE debt. You can still have a blues club without BB's name.

Agreed!

 

I'm a marketer for a living and I don't understand this over-branding. Just give a genre-appropriate name to each venue and be done with it. Then reallocate that licensing budget to better/more entertainment – or anything besides ridiculous branding. What do BB King, Rolling Stone, or Billboard have to do with any of these venues? Are they planning to raise BB King from the dead to play a set?

It's a ship. They've got a captive audience. It's not like people will or will not go to a venue because it is (or isn't branded). If they NEED "competitive differentiation," they could hire a branding agency on a one-off contract to develop an identity for each venue and make it part of the HAL on-board brand.

I like classical music, but I couldn't tell you what Lincoln Center has to do with that. I just want a place where I can go and hear an hour or so of live classical music. They could call it "HAL Classical Trio" and put it in the corner of the MDR at 3 PM and I'd go.

Edited July 14, 2023 by ExpatBride

[iceman93]

3 minutes ago, ExpatBride said:

Agreed!

 

I'm a marketer for a living and I don't understand this over-branding.

Can I get an "amen"?!

 

I've said this from the start, when the partnerships with Microsoft and America's Test Kitchen began.  Then the partnerships continued--Oprah, BB King's, Rolling Stone, Chateau Ste Michelle, and I'm probably forgetting a few.  I'm sure some made more sense financially than others (Microsoft may have actually paid for the computer centers, for instance, rather than HAL paying for the Microsoft name), but for a venue like a nighttime rock and blues club HAL could easily have done their own thing.

[cruisemom42]

38 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I want to be clear and fair which means that we should asknowledge that there have  been cut-backs (some of it starting even before COVID) on nearly all of the mass market lines.  The only exception is that we did not notice any cut-backs when we cruised on MSC (Yacht Club) last October (14 days in the Caribbean). 

 

To play devil's advocate 😉:

 

Given your comment (and those of others) about your YC experience and also the continued high pricing and uptake on Celebrity suites, this non-suite cruiser is beginning to wonder if the post-pandemic cutbacks aren't leading to greater disparity among the passengers on ships with a strong suite or "ship within a ship" concept?

 

These lines provide separate amenities for their top-end customers, which means they must carry more staff/crew:  separate dining facilities mean more wait staff, more kitchen staff. More bar staff for "suite only" bars. Not to mention concierge and butler services. They market their elevated cuisine and can't afford to let standards slip too much among this more discerning group of passengers*.  I'm willing to bet that these lines cut back more in their $$ spent for food served in (non-suite) MDRs in an effort to at least maintain standards in their suite dining rooms, where they are more likely to hear complaints -- or lose customers. 

 

However cruise lines spin things as "adding" suite amenities for suite passengers at a higher cost, those of us who do not book suites are also paying an unacknowledged price in that we are receiving reduced quality and service. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, if you will. 

 

By all accounts, the changes Celebrity has made in their MDRs starting in 2023 have been drastic, though some have slowly been walked back. The food in HAL's MDR does not seem to have changed as much. Before 2023 I'd have placed Celebrity's "basic" food offerings higher. Now I believe HAL's may be better. Why? I think it is partly this:  HAL does not have to support a suite dining room.

 

Like you, I walk the walk. Next cruises are on Oceania and Azamara, followed by a Viking river cruise next spring. As I prefer to cruise more frequently, any higher end lines than those are off the table for this solo cruiser. 🤷‍♀️

 

__________________________________

*Sometimes when reading Celebrity's board one has to wonder whether the suite dining room is really appreciated, as it seems many actually prefer ordering off the regular MDR menu, eschewing the more upscale Luminae offerings. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by cruisemom42

[3rdGenCunarder]

4 minutes ago, iceman93 said:

Can I get an "amen"?!

 

I've said this from the start, when the partnerships with Microsoft and America's Test Kitchen began.  Then the partnerships continued--Oprah, BB King's, Rolling Stone, Chateau Ste Michelle, and I'm probably forgetting a few.  I'm sure some made more sense financially than others (Microsoft may have actually paid for the computer centers, for instance, rather than HAL paying for the Microsoft name), but for a venue like a nighttime rock and blues club HAL could easily have done their own thing.

 

You can get an "amen" from me on this. I have never been impressed with all those names. (BTW, you left out Dancing With the Stars)

 

Sometimes it makes me feel like HAL has no confidence in its own name. Why do they need to trade on someone else's name? HAL is one of the oldest lines in existence. Can they not market experience, itinerary, service? The other line I sail with a lot is a bit older than HAL and all of their MANY house entertainers are just that. The band in the pub may have a name, but it isn't a Big Name that's licensed to Cunard. 

 

The Lincoln Center group were the best classical group I've ever seen on a cruise. But HAL could spend some money on recruiting good musicians and it still would probably be less expensive than licensing a name. 

[Sea42]

18 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

You can get an "amen" from me on this. I have never been impressed with all those names. (BTW, you left out Dancing With the Stars)

 

Sometimes it makes me feel like HAL has no confidence in its own name. Why do they need to trade on someone else's name? HAL is one of the oldest lines in existence. Can they not market experience, itinerary, service? The other line I sail with a lot is a bit older than HAL and all of their MANY house entertainers are just that. The band in the pub may have a name, but it isn't a Big Name that's licensed to Cunard. 

 

The Lincoln Center group were the best classical group I've ever seen on a cruise. But HAL could spend some money on recruiting good musicians and it still would probably be less expensive than licensing a name. 

Maybe this is what HAl is in the process of doing? Time will tell but it may be that the ending of the Lincoln Center affiliation is the start of letting the brand contracts expire and setting up something new to replace them.

Some people will be disappointed and miss what was and others will be excited to see what's next.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sea42

[OlsSalt]

Since HAL continues to have the best itineraries for the cost in the business, they have downgraded nothing among the cruise for travel destinations set.  The rest is gravy. 

[Hlitner]

16 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

To play devil's advocate 😉:

 

Given your comment (and those of others) about your YC experience and also the continued high pricing and uptake on Celebrity suites, this non-suite cruiser is beginning to wonder if the post-pandemic cutbacks aren't leading to greater disparity among the passengers on ships with a strong suite or "ship within a ship" concept?

 

These lines provide separate amenities for their top-end customers, which means they must carry more staff/crew:  separate dining facilities mean more wait staff, more kitchen staff. More bar staff for "suite only" bars. Not to mention concierge and butler services. They market their elevated cuisine and can't afford to let standards slip too much among this more discerning group of passengers*.  I'm willing to bet that these lines cut back more in their $$ spent for food served in (non-suite) MDRs in an effort to at least maintain standards in their suite dining rooms, where they are more likely to hear complaints -- or lose customers. 

 

However cruise lines spin things as "adding" suite amenities for suite passengers at a higher cost, those of us who do not book suites are also paying an unacknowledged price in that we are receiving reduced quality and service. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, if you will. 

 

By all accounts, the changes Celebrity has made in their MDRs starting in 2023 have been drastic, though some have slowly been walked back. The food in HAL's MDR does not seem to have changed as much. Before 2023 I'd have placed Celebrity's "basic" food offerings higher. Now I believe HAL's may be better. Why? I think it is partly this:  HAL does not have to support a suite dining room.

 

Like you, I walk the walk. Next cruises are on Oceania and Azamara, followed by a Viking river cruise next spring. As I prefer to cruise more frequently, any higher end lines than those are off the table for this solo cruiser. 🤷‍♀️

 

__________________________________

*Sometimes when reading Celebrity's board one has to wonder whether the suite dining room is really appreciated, as it seems many actually prefer ordering off the regular MDR menu, eschewing the more upscale Luminae offerings. 

The upcoming (very soon) Seabourn cruise was a true accident :).  I had posted somewhere that we were simply looking at a cruise data base for cruises from July-Sept 2024 (throughout the world) and mistakenly put in 2023 instead of 2024.  The Seabourn cruise jumped out (a terrific itinerary with some interesting small Scotland ports as well as the usual Iceland, Greenland stuff.  When I saw they had a few remaining suites, and were selling them at a nice discount (from the norm) we talked about it for about a day and than booked.  

 

I should tell you that we once (only once) did a Viking river cruise which was 14 days from Amsterdam to Budapest.  The cruise was near-perfect, we met many fascinating folks, and had no issues with Viking.  But, we hated having only 3 hours to explore Bratislava (we could have spent a day in the museum) and it drove me crazy when cruising at 8 knots on the Rhine and watching cars whizzing by at over 120 knots!  I wanted to be driving one of those cars.  DW and I told ourselves we would probably not do any more European river cruises until we are too old for DIY...and as you are aware, that has yet to happen.  I am thinking if we live into our 80s we might go back on the rivers.

 

Hank

[3rdGenCunarder]

2 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

Since HAL continues to have the best itineraries for the cost in the business, they have downgraded nothing among the cruise for travel destinations set.  The rest is gravy. 

 

I will admit that I travel for the destinations. But when cruise offers NOTHING by way of entertainment that appeals to me, I do feel that I haven't been served enough "gravy."

 

I don't want to destroy my hearing on the music walk and I'm not thrilled with Step One.  If Eurodam hadn't still had LC last winter, I'd have nothing to do after dinner but go to my cabin to read or watch a movie. That's pretty sad. 

[cruisemom42]

5 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

DW and I told ourselves we would probably not do any more European river cruises until we are too old for DIY...and as you are aware, that has yet to happen.  I am thinking if we live into our 80s we might go back on the rivers.

 

My river cruise is to the wine region around Bordeaux, so perhaps more tasting and less exploring.... 🍷.  I do plan to spend at least a week based in Bordeaux before or after the cruise, exploring the region more in depth. (You won't be surprised to hear that I have a historical fascination with Eleanor of Aquitaine and want to visit some of the places she lived, as well as her tomb.)

 

As for Bratislava, I was there for a week chaperoning DS's high school band tour. I think a day would've been plenty for me, but luckily it is also close to Vienna.

 

[OlsSalt]

4 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

......, I'd have nothing to do after dinner but go to my cabin to read or watch a movie. That's pretty sad. 

 

Too bad the lost art of conversation, playing cards, board games, or having a post-dinner drink (and  even a smoke) with new travel companions went  the way of black tie for dinner and long gowns for women .....in cruising days of yore.

 

Losing small conversation spaces has been a loss for this fine art of nostalgic cruising.  Self-contained entertainment, when it was a convention to come prepared for this post dinner option. Or  the requisite post-dinner strolls around the decks for health and digestion.

 

Costume parties, passenger talent shows,  theme nights ...........those too have gone by the wayside in lieu of packaged entertainments. One of the funniest nights on a cruise ship long ago was the souvenir exchange night before packing up - what to do with that impulse purchase of that stuffed leather camel one picked up in Cairo, that was already starting to smell - put it out for the passenger bazaar night.

[Guest ldtr]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

To play devil's advocate 😉:

 

Given your comment (and those of others) about your YC experience and also the continued high pricing and uptake on Celebrity suites, this non-suite cruiser is beginning to wonder if the post-pandemic cutbacks aren't leading to greater disparity among the passengers on ships with a strong suite or "ship within a ship" concept?

 

These lines provide separate amenities for their top-end customers, which means they must carry more staff/crew:  separate dining facilities mean more wait staff, more kitchen staff. More bar staff for "suite only" bars. Not to mention concierge and butler services. They market their elevated cuisine and can't afford to let standards slip too much among this more discerning group of passengers*.  I'm willing to bet that these lines cut back more in their $$ spent for food served in (non-suite) MDRs in an effort to at least maintain standards in their suite dining rooms, where they are more likely to hear complaints -- or lose customers. 

 

However cruise lines spin things as "adding" suite amenities for suite passengers at a higher cost, those of us who do not book suites are also paying an unacknowledged price in that we are receiving reduced quality and service. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, if you will. 

 

By all accounts, the changes Celebrity has made in their MDRs starting in 2023 have been drastic, though some have slowly been walked back. The food in HAL's MDR does not seem to have changed as much. Before 2023 I'd have placed Celebrity's "basic" food offerings higher. Now I believe HAL's may be better. Why? I think it is partly this:  HAL does not have to support a suite dining room.

 

Like you, I walk the walk. Next cruises are on Oceania and Azamara, followed by a Viking river cruise next spring. As I prefer to cruise more frequently, any higher end lines than those are off the table for this solo cruiser. 🤷‍♀️

 

__________________________________

*Sometimes when reading Celebrity's board one has to wonder whether the suite dining room is really appreciated, as it seems many actually prefer ordering off the regular MDR menu, eschewing the more upscale Luminae offerings. 

Bingo.

 

Cruise are the perfect example of operating a business with a number of constraints. Once a ship is built its size is a limit,  if you give additional resources to one group (public space, service resources, etc) it mean their allocation of a constrained resource gets larger, the amount left for everyone else gets smaller. Most noticeable when one has gone through the change. Newer passengers will not notice because to them that is just the way that it was. On Celebrity Michael's club on the M and S class ships was often used for the string trio/duo performances. Not heavily utilized. But was missed when they turned it into the Suite lounge

 

Less noticeable on some ships than others depending upon exactly how they implemented their approach.

Edited July 14, 2023 by ldtr

[Guest ldtr]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I want to be clear and fair which means that we should asknowledge that there have  been cut-backs (some of it starting even before COVID) on nearly all of the mass market lines.  The only exception is that we did not notice any cut-backs when we cruised on MSC (Yacht Club) last October (14 days in the Caribbean).  We also thought it was interesting that the various shortages (attributed by the cruise lines to supply chain issues) did not seem to be an issue on MSC.  We have experienced shortages on our most recent HAL, Princess, and Seabourn cruises.  On Seabourn, when we were on the Ovation for a month, they quickly ran out of all their bourbons (and they have many) except for Wild Turkey!  But that happened just after leaving Florida and they did restock once we got to Europe.

 

As to luxury lines, we noticed very little change on Seabourn!  But, there have been some CC posts that are not very complementary to that line.  We will soon be back aboard Seabourn and will be able to evaluate if anything has gone downhill since our last cruise about 1 year ago.

 

At this point, being cruise addicts with no true loyalty to any line, we are simply making the "rounds" of many lines to determine which is the best value (not cheapest) for us.  If Explora 1 ever sails, we will finally determine if that new line lives up to the hype.  We look forward to trying O's new ship next spring (the Vista) although their fans have done some complaining about cut-backs.  Princess has continued to be one of our favorite mass market lines, and although we have noticed some cut-backs we still find it far superior to HAL (others disagree).  We do want to get back to Azamara (it has been a few years since our last cruise) although we are not big fans of the old "R" ships and their tiny cabin bathrooms.

 

At times, I am puzzled by some of my fellow HAL cruising friends.  Several of them have told us that they agree that HAL has gone downhill, but they continue to book the line.  In my world, when a product degrades it is time to move on to other products.  At this time, the only positive thing we can say about HAL is that they do have some terrific itineraries and their pricing (for most cruises) is reasonable when compared to much of the competition.

 

Hank

As far as US mainstream lines, the class structure is relatively new. They were quite egalitarian until Celebrity started down that path. Now that Princess has indicated a move in that direction with their new design, leaving HAL as the only remaining NA focused mass market line without it.

 

I expect with the changes in the structure of CCL you will see a number of changes as the brands execute more moves unique to their brand.

 

Over the next 12 months we are on 8 different cruise lines, going from ships sizes of 5000 at one end to 50 passengers at the other.

[mcrcruiser]

4 hours ago, PACD_JG said:

 

But HAL doesn't have to change a DAM thing because you keep making bookings!  The definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.  But keep on trolling...

The HAL   people that serve us are generally very good & nice people aboard , I can.t say that about all their management personnel ,I can't  say that abut all their on phone customer service   personnel ,some very food & some vert bad 

[mcrcruiser]

11 minutes ago, ldtr said:

As far as US mainstream lines, the class structure is relatively new. They were quite egalitarian until Celebrity started down that path. Now that Princess has indicated a move in that direction with their new design, leaving HAL as the only remaining NA focused mass market line without it.

 

I expect with the changes in the structure of CCL you will see a number of changes as the brands execute more moves unique to their brand.

 

Over the next 12 months we are on 8 different cruise lines, going from ships sizes of 5000 at one end to 50 passengers at the other.

We love ro see a ship within a ship with HAL ,willing to pay the premium if it truly works