I Have Been Woefully Ignorant Regarding Tips

[gah_cruise]

3 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

You have a choice to adjust up until the cruise is over. 

You cannot adjust crew appreciation if you have purchased a Plus or Premium Package.

[BlerkOne]

3 minutes ago, gah_cruise said:

You cannot adjust crew appreciation if you have purchased a Plus or Premium Package.

I approve!

[Guest ldtr]

6 hours ago, SargassoPirate said:

With the discussions here about the costs of Plus and Premier packages, disappearing amenities, new charges for amenities, and calling tips/gratuities "crew appreciation" I noticed: 

 

All of the Crew Appreciation and Service Charge payments made by all guests on all ships in our fleet are pooled, net of credit card transaction fees. The pooled funds are distributed throughout the year in the form of compensation, including bonuses, to crewmembers fleetwide who interact directly with guests and/or behind the scenes throughout every cruise, including those in the Bar, Dining, Entertainment, Housekeeping, Guest Services, Galley and Onboard Revenue areas.

 

All of which got me to wondering who actually gets the 18 percent when I order a wee dram in the evening?  From all appearances, it doesn't look like the server, so what is their incentive to hustle - other than my folded two dollar bill handed to them as I place my order?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two different things.  The daily gratuity goes into the pool and all must go to the employees in the pool, except for actual credit card fees. US accounting rule pretty clear on that.

 

The 18% service charge is not optional when incurred with a drink charge is not covered by the same accounting rules so it is rather opaque where that goes. It would be considered on the books and when received would be considered as  revenue and any use of the money expense. No way to tell where it goes from the filings.

[Steelers36]

5 hours ago, SargassoPirate said:

All of which got me to wondering who actually gets the 18 percent when I order a wee dram in the evening?

I am not so sure anymore as have been reading all the fine print of late.  It USED to be that the 18% bar gratuity was shared among all of the bartenders and bar waiters.  The auto-gratuity - now called Crew Appreciation (and Crew Incentive for a blink of an eye) - was generally for housekeeping staff and dining waitstaff.

 

So, I am not sure if two separate pools are maintained, or whether they are mixing it all up.  If the bar tip pool is separate, I also expect that it is fleetwide and managed similar to the CA pool.

 

Note that these are distinct groups of tips - at least from where and how they are assessed and collected.  Guests on packages are paying a bar gratuity component of the drink portion of the packages

 

If PCL is putting in the same dollars as if guest had bought items a la carte, you have $16 min for CA and $17.70 min for beverages (PLUS).  This is $27.70 of the $60, leaving only $32.30 for PCL to cover the provided benefits.  And yet, they are making money on it, so thing is we don't know the numbers and it's not our business.

 

PS - I realize some of the package benefits don't really "cost" PCL anything to provide.

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Steelers36

[gah_cruise]

4 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I approve!

each to their own 🙂 

[Guest ldtr]

3 hours ago, Roberto256 said:

Ding.  Ding.  Ding.

 

Survey says...

 

NUMBER ONE ANSWER.

 

What I find amusing ... now, with all the packages which include crew appreciation...

Lots and lots of cruisers have the 'tips' rolled into the cruise fare.

 

But, I have read here many, many times that the cruise lines can't do this.

It violates some accounting law for publicly traded companies, blah, blah...

Always posted by self-professed experts.

 

To save money and regulations, carnival corp set up a panamanian corporation to run their onboard gaming.

 

I always assumed that if carnival corp want to roll tips into cruise fares that they were clever enough, and

had enough lawyers to do so...

 

And, who is in this customer facing tip pool seems to be very fluid.

At one time princess mentioned front desk, shops and entertainment.

Now, they do not.

 

All I know is that I have heard from people I know on princess that the 'salary' sucks, and lots of them have left.

Virgin voyages seems to be a popular destination.   You might see a maitre d' you recognize there.

 

P.S. When crew says 'salary' for their tip income, it sounds off to me.   But that is what they say...

Keep in mind when you buy a package you are voluntarily buying an optional package with the gratuities. you have the option not to buy. As such that is still in line with the accounting rules.

 

You can still buy basic fare where you can remove gratuities. Instead of choosing to buy a package with gratuities included. As Liong as they have that option they are good.

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, Bgwest said:

Didn't the fleetwide distribution begin some time ago? I remember thinking this way of handing suggested daily tips was wrong when I first heard about. I'm thinking this was some years ago.

 

Is my old brain playing tricks on me?

Yes the system went fleet wide several years ago. As I understand it the decision was made largely because different ship assignments in different regions could result in a significant difference in gratuities received based upon the origin of the passengers cruising. This created a problem with crew assignments (crew were unhappy with low tipping regions). To solve that problem they went fleet wide so location did not matter.

[gah_cruise]

4 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Yes the system went fleet wide several years ago. As I understand it the decision was made largely because different ship assignments in different regions could result in a significant difference in gratuities received based upon the origin of the passengers cruising. This created a problem with crew assignments (crew were unhappy with low tipping regions). To solve that problem they went fleet wide so location did not matter.

Do you know if the basic wage for a certain position  (for instance a waiter in a bar) is the same across all regions?

[Guest ldtr]

6 hours ago, cruzsnooze said:

The money goes first to Princess who deducts an adm fee. The money we pay as Americans supplements the fleet wide areas such as OZ and New Zealand who don't tip. The money does not go to the crew on the ship who serviced you. Onboard revenue includes shop keepers, cruise director and their staff (think revenue Bingo) and shore excursions , photo's and on and on............most everything is revenue generating

No they do not subtract an admin fee. The only amount which can be subtracted is the actual credit card fee charged to Princess by whatever processor the credit card transaction goes through. They cannot subtract anything else from it.

 

You also listed several people that are not part of the pool.  Officers such as the cruise director is not part of the pool. Depending on rank the CD staff might be. The retail stores are contractors and not part of the pool. Lower rank customer service and excursion desk personnel are in the pool. Basically the scope of the pool is non officer hotel side employees. It does not include contractors or employees on the ship operations side.

[Guest ldtr]

6 hours ago, cruzsnooze said:

The money goes first to Princess who deducts an adm fee. The money we pay as Americans supplements the fleet wide areas such as OZ and New Zealand who don't tip. The money does not go to the crew on the ship who serviced you. Onboard revenue includes shop keepers, cruise director and their staff (think revenue Bingo) and shore excursions , photo's and on and on............most everything is revenue generating

Australian passengers on cruises home ported in Australia with the shipboard currency  in AUD have the gratuities included in the fare, with no removal option

[memoak]

14 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Keep in mind when you buy a package you are voluntarily buying an optional package with the gratuities. you have the option not to buy. As such that is still in line with the accounting rules.

 

You can still buy basic fare where you can remove gratuities. Instead of choosing to buy a package with gratuities included. As Liong as they have that option they are good.

 But if you go non plan and drink you will pay a gratuity on all drinks plus a heavy fee for the drink

[Guest ldtr]

5 hours ago, basil1 said:

Agreed. It's not a tip or gratuity it's a service charge. A tip or gratuity implies that it's intended for the person who did the job for you and did a better than expected job. IMHO

Not quite a service charge does not have the option of removal. One has the option to buy a basic fare, remove gratuities, and had them our however they want. As long as that option exists it still meets the gratuity accounting rules.

 

When you buy a package with a gratuity included or a fare with on included that is a voluntary action to make an optional purchase.

[Guest ldtr]

5 hours ago, roadster08 said:

Apparently, it goes to the people who work on all the ships, for the greater good. Everyone is expected to perform according to the best of their abilities, and the reward for that gets distributed equally.

 

If you say that doesn't sound like capitalism, I would agree with you.

 

In addition, I think it is rather arrogant for Princess to pluck the tips from the people we give them to and treat it like it was princesses own tips to be distributed as they see fit.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually Princess does not pluck them from those you directly pay tips to. That practice was stopped a few years ago.

 

 There is the issue that removal of tips may be a tracked performance metric for Stewards and on going results above expected levels may impact reviews.

 

Best way to make sure your Steward or any other employee gets rewarded by the system is to list them in the after cruise survey. Those mentions do impact bonus, days off, future contracts and assignments.

 

In my case I leave the gratuity intact, list those employees that were excellent in the survey, as well as give an extra amount to those that go above and beyond.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, memoak said:

 But if you go non plan and drink you will pay a gratuity on all drinks plus a heavy fee for the drink

you pay a service charge on drinks. Where that money goes is not clear. 

[Wakepatrol]

Oh boy - I can see some of these posters are still finding the quarter behind their grandchild’s ear

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, gah_cruise said:

Do you know if the basic wage for a certain position  (for instance a waiter in a bar) is the same across all regions?

My understanding is that the basic pool payouts for the same position at the same rank is consistent across the fleet. There are also awards and bonuses paid that will vary from individual. Passenger input to that process these days is post cruise survey results and employee mentions.

According to a discussion I had with Head of Cabin Services it is all pretty automated to insure consistent treatment across ships.

 

As far as the non pool salary aspect, recruitment and the actual contract terms I have never inquired about that side, so do not know the variance that might exist based upon home country, how recruited, etc.

 

Though I believe that there are some minimum requirements in that area for shipboard employees 

[Steelers36]

12 minutes ago, ldtr said:

you pay a service charge on drinks. Where that money goes is not clear. 

It used to be a separate pool for bartenders and bar waitstaff.  Not same as hotel pool for DR waiters and cabin stewards.

[Lady Arwen]

45 minutes ago, roadster08 said:

Let me explain it to you in a way that I hope you can see.

 

What started off as tipping for services rendered has morphed into crew appreciation. However, most of us from a tipping culture thought it was still tipping only princess was making it more convenient. 

 

As others have said, the current crew appreciation is basically a component of the base fare that you have the option to remove, but very few do.

 

When we pay a base fare we expect to have no say in how princess distributes it. Many of us assumed out of ignorance  we did have a say with crew appreciation.

 

To call it crew appreciation, I think is borderline unethical. It's actually a bonus we give Princess on top of the base fare. 

I’m exhausted just trying to read through even a couple of these posts, including yours.  Thanks for replying to mine, but sorry, it’s still a heap of nonsense.  Your choice is to pay the auto CA if you book standard fare or remove them, or book a Plus or Premier package and it’s a done deal, or you can fill an envelope with cash and hand it out to whomever you choose,  or if you don’t like any of these choices, just don’t cruise.

 

Why do you care how it’s distributed?  It’s not your contract so not your business.  That’s between employer and employee.  You could try another cruiseline, oh sorry, but it’s the same.  I am now done with this conversation and this thread.  Talk about beating a dead horse.

[Guest ldtr]

4 hours ago, Tedferg said:

Someone said it is fleet wide because crew objected to regions like Australia or UK where the tipping protocol is different from other regions.

Yep, being assigned to different regions impacted tip amounts thus impacting crew assignment. Solution was to go to fleet wide pool.

 

There might have been additional reasons but that is the one that was mentioned at the time.

 

Gratuities have gone through multiple changes over the years. First it was all paid directly with the envelops you got at customer service, then it went to automatic with a list of the breakdown, then it went to ship board pools, then to fleetwide

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, roadster08 said:

Let me explain it to you in a way that I hope you can see.

 

What started off as tipping for services rendered has morphed into crew appreciation. However, most of us from a tipping culture thought it was still tipping only princess was making it more convenient. 

 

As others have said, the current crew appreciation is basically a component of the base fare that you have the option to remove, but very few do.

 

When we pay a base fare we expect to have no say in how princess distributes it. Many of us assumed out of ignorance  we did have a say with crew appreciation.

 

To call it crew appreciation, I think is borderline unethical. It's actually a bonus we give Princess on top of the base fare. 

Actually you do have a say. Anyone that fills out the end of cruise survey is executing their say. Especially if they name employees that they want to see rewarded 

 

It is not a bonus to Princess. Accounting rules are pretty clear except for credit card processing fees it must all go to members of the pool. Those funds are neither revenue or expense to the cruise line.

 

Note that those rules do not apply to 18% service charges for drinks and some services. Some or all of those could go to employees or not. The cruise lines have a lot more freedom in how those are handled.

 

One can always book and sale on P&O which being a UK or Australia focused cruise lines include the gratuity amounts in their fares.

 

All of the North America  facing mainstream brands follow the same approach for the daily gratuities with a pool system. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by ldtr

[charliedalrymple]

4 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

I do not object to the amounts.  I also can live w how it is distributed to the crew members on my ship.  I did not realize that it was apparently distributed fleetwise.  This is my issue.

 

DON

 

Completely agree with Don. If the gratuity is not being paid to the crew on my ship (including those I never see, which I don't mind), then I would reduce or eliminate the automatic gratuity and just give cash to those who serve me.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, charliedalrymple said:

 

Completely agree with Don. If the gratuity is not being paid to the crew on my ship (including those I never see, which I don't mind), then I would reduce or eliminate the automatic gratuity and just give cash to those who serve me.

Keep in mind that crew on your ship is also getting money paid into the pool by other ships so it all balances out and a much more stable level of income.

 

In the end the flow of money between ships in the pool is probably pretty small and as much a matter of occupancy as anything else. One cruise a little may flow out of  another a little may flow in.

 

You can make sure individuals on your ship get rewarded by making sure you fill out the after cruise survey and list the ones that you want to see rewarded by name.

Edited July 31, 2023 by ldtr

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, ldtr said:

Two different things.  The daily gratuity goes into the pool and all must go to the employees in the pool, except for actual credit card fees. US accounting rule pretty clear on that.

 

The 18% service charge is not optional when incurred with a drink charge is not covered by the same accounting rules so it is rather opaque where that goes. It would be considered on the books and when received would be considered as  revenue and any use of the money expense. No way to tell where it goes from the filings.

Accounting aside,

 

All of the Crew Appreciation and Service Charge payments made by all guests on all ships in our fleet are pooled, net of credit card transaction fees. The pooled funds are distributed throughout the year in the form of compensation, including bonuses, to crewmembers fleetwide who interact directly with guests and/or behind the scenes throughout every cruise, including those in the Bar, Dining, Entertainment, Housekeeping, Guest Services, Galley and Onboard Revenue areas.

 

https://www.princess.com/html/global/disclaimers/crew-appreciation/

 

 

[BlerkOne]

Unlike other cruise lines, I think Princess is being transparent about how the gratuities are distributed. If only other cruise lines were as honest.

[charliedalrymple]

3 minutes ago, ldtr said:

You can make sure individuals on your ship get rewarded by making sure you fill out the after cruise survey and list the ones that you want to see rewarded by name.

 

Yes, completely agree--and I always make it a point to recognise outstanding crew members by writing a positive review for them!