What happened to awesome cruise experience?

[ldubs]

17 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

The fact is: most organizations which are not governed by mass (read “lowest common denominator”) tastes do have dress codes of one sort or another.  
 

Virtually every private school, most customer-contact staff in sales-oriented enterprises, local and federal courts, all military organizations, virtually all private clubs all stipulate some dress expectations (if not actual  requirements).

 

This is because it is generally recognized that a person’s appearance does, in some fashion, influence that person’s performance.

 

You are comparing military standards, school, and workplace dress policies (which are pretty lax these days) to what people wear on vacation.  Dress styles change.  And, the truth is people who complain are doing so because others won't dress like they do.   Parochial thinking abounds.    

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

38 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

You are comparing military standards, school, and workplace dress policies (which are pretty lax these days) to what people wear on vacation.  Dress styles change.  And, the truth is people who complain are doing so because others won't dress like they do.   Parochial thinking abounds.    

 

 

Those standards exist because they serve a valuable purpose - even though they work against the instant gratification now sought by many of the  patrons of mass market lines.   It is interesting that most upscale lines do have more in the way of dress codes — is it simply because people want to pay more to be told what to wear — or could it be because people willing to pay more for a better experience might recognize that dress codes do lend a certain flavor which they value?

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

Those standards exist because they serve a valuable purpose - even though they work against the instant gratification now sought by many of the  patrons of mass market lines.   It is interesting that most upscale lines do have more in the way of dress codes — is it simply because people want to pay more to be told what to wear — or could it be because people willing to pay more for a better experience might recognize that dress codes do lend a certain flavor which they value?

 

The examples you mentioned work neither for or against people on vacation, whether upscale or not.  I don't really care what you mean by instant gratification of mass market line patrons, as I think it is deliberately intended to provoke a reaction.  

 

I've not been on one, but read that there are upscale lines with formal dress code days.   I also see many upscale lines have relaxed dress suggestions.  Either way, it appears you have now moved from dress causing passenger conduct issues to the need to foster a certain atmosphere. That I can understand.  Though, with suggested casual dress, which definition is changing all the time, that flavor seems kind of nebulous.      

 

I hope you have found the experience you enjoy and value.  

   

[sparks1093]

8 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Those standards exist because they serve a valuable purpose - even though they work against the instant gratification now sought by many of the  patrons of mass market lines.   It is interesting that most upscale lines do have more in the way of dress codes — is it simply because people want to pay more to be told what to wear — or could it be because people willing to pay more for a better experience might recognize that dress codes do lend a certain flavor which they value?

I think people that pay more are upper middle class and above, in short they have money (yes, an obvious statement). And they tend to dress "better" on a day to day basis, anyway. Some may even "dress for dinner" in their own home on a routine basis. So it stands to reason that they would want to sail with a cruise line where others are dressing similarly to themselves (but people choose their cruise line for a wide variety of reasons, so being pampered, having better quality food and entertainment, etc. all play into the decision. I doubt that there are many out there who are choosing a line solely because of the dress code.)

 

I read the dress code for one of the upscale lines (Oceania) and it isn't for me at all, since it controls not only what is worn during dinner but also what is worn in public during the day (but if I were looking for the best in food and entertainment etc. then I could overcome the dress code). In any event it is what it is. For some it enhances the cruising experience (the theme of this thread) and for some it detracts from the cruising experience. If someone misses the old way of dressing up for cruising there are certainly lines out there that will satisfy them, but even still the old formality that used to exist is a thing of the past. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by sparks1093

[Mary229]

You guys are funny.  Oceana as an “upscale” experience.  That is funny.  Jeff Bezos’ yacht is an upscale experience and he wears lots of tshirts, jeans and cowboy hats. 
 

 

[navybankerteacher]

26 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

You guys are funny.  Oceana as an “upscale” experience.  That is funny.  Jeff Bezos’ yacht is an upscale experience and he wears lots of tshirts, jeans and cowboy hats. 
 

 

I suppose it is possible to ignore certain basic differences between the food, service and general ambience on lines like Oceania and Azamera and those like Carnival and NCL — but not recognizing the difference between cruise lines and private yachts…..?

[Mary229]

33 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

I suppose it is possible to ignore certain basic differences between the food, service and general ambience on lines like Oceania and Azamera and those like Carnival and NCL — but not recognizing the difference between cruise lines and private yachts…..?

The whole pretense of what you wear makes the person is absurd is my point.  I can act perfectly reasonable or badly in whatever I wear and never for a minute misjudge clothing or behavior with the size of a person’s wealth.  

[sparks1093]

32 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

The whole pretense of what you wear makes the person is absurd is my point.  I can act perfectly reasonable or badly in whatever I wear and never for a minute misjudge clothing or behavior with the size of a person’s wealth.  

There have been many studies that have shown that "clothes make the person". Of course when dealing with human beings little is absolute, but what one wears can impact one's behavior. I know of the following real life example. The Petty Officer Club on the Little Creek Naval base was known for the number of fights that occurred every night. It was getting quite out of hand, even for drunken sailors. A new club manager was hired and the first thing that he did was implement a strict dress code. No clothes with holes or obvious wear. Jeans were allowed but they couldn't be faded. And he hired people to enforce the dress code at the door and their say was final. The fighting stopped. So, yes, what a person wears can impact their conduct.

[Mary229]

2 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

There have been many studies that have shown that "clothes make the person". Of course when dealing with human beings little is absolute, but what one wears can impact one's behavior. I know of the following real life example. The Petty Officer Club on the Little Creek Naval base was known for the number of fights that occurred every night. It was getting quite out of hand, even for drunken sailors. A new club manager was hired and the first thing that he did was implement a strict dress code. No clothes with holes or obvious wear. Jeans were allowed but they couldn't be faded. And he hired people to enforce the dress code at the door and their say was final. The fighting stopped. So, yes, what a person wears can impact their conduct.

There are equal and extensive studies on the behavior of the wealthy, the rich and the comfortable.  All people in the service industry should read those studies.  It is a mistake to judge clients by what they wear.  

[sparks1093]

14 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

There are equal and extensive studies on the behavior of the wealthy, the rich and the comfortable.  All people in the service industry should read those studies.  It is a mistake to judge clients by what they wear.  

No doubt, but we were discussing your comment that it's "an absurd pretense of what you wear makes the person is absurd". The point that @navybankerteacher was making (if I'm understanding him correctly) is that the relaxed dress codes on the mainstream lines contributes to behavioral issues on those lines. 

[LinRon3]

10 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

There have been many studies that have shown that "clothes make the person". Of course when dealing with human beings little is absolute, but what one wears can impact one's behavior. I know of the following real life example. The Petty Officer Club on the Little Creek Naval base was known for the number of fights that occurred every night. It was getting quite out of hand, even for drunken sailors. A new club manager was hired and the first thing that he did was implement a strict dress code. No clothes with holes or obvious wear. Jeans were allowed but they couldn't be faded. And he hired people to enforce the dress code at the door and their say was final. The fighting stopped. So, yes, what a person wears can impact their conduct.

It amazes me how people transform.  On sea days, most people I think dress comfortable, with flip flops and sandals, beachwear, shorts, t shirts...that kind of thing.  My wife and I enjoy watching people...like the speedo's perhaps on the wrong bodies, LOL [sic, we're those [ie wrong bodies], ha...but no speedos' for us].  I dunno; nothing impressive when people stripped down to pure comfort [oh, yea the occasional hard body passes, and sure, it's a joy to look [don't tell my wife, ha again].  But on 'dress to impress' night...I dunno...especially the gals...they transform, many into goddesses and high stature celeb look alikes.  Guys in ties...hate to say, we all look like clones, ha.  But the gals...yea, they become all sparkly, with napes and backs and all sorts of things and one [me] can't help but 'notice'.  What was once dumpy, bulging, chunky, out of shape...well, the clothes DO in fact...make a difference.  In behavior?  Goes without saying; but how much, hard to say.  I know I 'straighten' up [as my Mom used to spur me]...on my best behavior [though a lot of that is the tight neck button to get the darn tie on].  I hate to admit though...even with a suit and tie, I'm the same twit I was in jeans...so, perhaps the world is just trying to quit the 'put ons' to be more, well, 'one's real self'?  I dunno though, hoodies in congress and holed jeans in the MDR...just doesn't seem to 'suit'.  I just sense disrespect.  

[Joebucks]

2 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

The point that @navybankerteacher was making (if I'm understanding him correctly) is that the relaxed dress codes on the mainstream lines contributes to behavioral issues on those lines. 

 

How easily the internet solves all of most complex problems. Slap some suits on those who fight on cruises, and their behavior instantly transforms into one who can hold a discussion of fine cheeses they've sampled.

[navybankerteacher]

19 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

No doubt, but we were discussing your comment that it's "an absurd pretense of what you wear makes the person is absurd". The point that @navybankerteacher was making (if I'm understanding him correctly) is that the relaxed dress codes on the mainstream lines contributes to behavioral issues on those lines. 

Close - an environment where there are no rules tends to lead to an atmosphere where people feel there are no rules.

[sparks1093]

6 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Close - an environment where there are no rules tends to lead to an atmosphere where people feel there are no rules.

Got it. Each mainstream line does have rules, but their enforcement of the rules can be spotty, so I would say in an environment where rules aren't enforced it tends to lead to an atmosphere where people feel there are no rules, but it kind of amounts to the same thing.

[Mary229]

55 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

No doubt, but we were discussing your comment that it's "an absurd pretense of what you wear makes the person is absurd". The point that @navybankerteacher was making (if I'm understanding him correctly) is that the relaxed dress codes on the mainstream lines contributes to behavioral issues on those lines. 

He took offense to my comparison with a private yacht.  Your comment about a sailor bar swings to the other extreme. I have been in sailor bars and there is nothing in that experience that has gone forth in the rest of my life.  I went, I watched, I took my go cup and I exited quietly and quickly 

[sparks1093]

15 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

He took offense to my comparison with a private yacht.  Your comment about a sailor bar swings to the other extreme. I have been in sailor bars and there is nothing in that experience that has gone forth in the rest of my life.  I went, I watched, I took my go cup and I exited quietly and quickly 

I'm sure that there are some who view mainstream lines to be nothing more than a floating sailor bar.

[ontheweb]

56 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Got it. Each mainstream line does have rules, but their enforcement of the rules can be spotty, so I would say in an environment where rules aren't enforced it tends to lead to an atmosphere where people feel there are no rules, but it kind of amounts to the same thing.

No, it is not the same thing. Either have rules and enforce them, or do not have the rules.

 

I still remember from back in the 60s a professor saying in a seminar I was taking with him that the 2 worst laws ever are speeding and alternate side of the street parking. And the reason they are the worst is everyone breaks them with no consequences. And once you get used to the idea that they are no consequences for breaking a law, breaking the next law becomes easier.

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

No, it is not the same thing. Either have rules and enforce them, or do not have the rules.

 

I still remember from back in the 60s a professor saying in a seminar I was taking with him that the 2 worst laws ever are speeding and alternate side of the street parking. And the reason they are the worst is everyone breaks them with no consequences. And once you get used to the idea that they are no consequences for breaking a law, breaking the next law becomes easier.

And in either case "people feel there are no rules". 

[ontheweb]

4 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

And in either case "people feel there are no rules". 

I'm going to respectfully disagree. We were just on NCL. They only have some dress rules for their most expensive extra cost dining venues. They can enforce that in a much easier manner than a different mainstream cruise line that has a dining dress code for everywhere except the buffet.

 

Have a few rules and strictly enforce them can work a lot better than having multiple rules that are not enforced.

[LinRon3]

39 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I'm going to respectfully disagree. We were just on NCL. They only have some dress rules for their most expensive extra cost dining venues. They can enforce that in a much easier manner than a different mainstream cruise line that has a dining dress code for everywhere except the buffet.

 

Have a few rules and strictly enforce them can work a lot better than having multiple rules that are not enforced.

Interesting discussion; used to have it with my father [now deceased].  Rules and standards, how can we justify them?  Are they based in deeper notions of morality and mores?  I mean, even if no suit and tie requirement, does it give way to some people perhaps going naked at some point? My father always made the analogy that people are like tomato plants, where structure and anchor is needed, or else they sprawl on the ground eventually to rot in the noon day sun?  One wonders about an 'anything goes' society, where things like obesity, sexual confusion, political polarization, and a general sense of chaos seems to be growing [ha, not sure how this relates to dress codes at cruise ship dinners].  But know one thing, the biggest reason I [we, my wife and I] DO cruise a lot is to 'escape' what seems like insanity going down in that general society.  Microcosms perhaps mirror the macrocosm.  Probably not the place for heavier discussion, but I thought this thread was interesting.  Me?  I 'like' standards; they 'anchor' us...alleviate a lot of confusion [perhaps]; reinforce that there ARE consequences to behavior [no, not always as a matter of lack of enforcement, but perhaps more like tomato plants rotting in the noon day sun].  Besides, I would look horrible naked [lol]. 

[Szt]

13 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Those standards exist because they serve a valuable purpose - even though they work against the instant gratification now sought by many of the  patrons of mass market lines.   It is interesting that most upscale lines do have more in the way of dress codes — is it simply because people want to pay more to be told what to wear — or could it be because people willing to pay more for a better experience might recognize that dress codes do lend a certain flavor which they value?

Did you ever consider that people with more money can afford formal wear and have more cause to wear it than the average person. And can afford flights where baggage restrictions don’t apply. It’s not a class thing. It’s a money thing. 

[Szt]

To each his own I guess. One of the reasons we like cruising, especially with others, is freedom. Everyone can pick and choose what they want and when. Of course certain rules have to apply for health and safety. And most of us REALLY do not want to see most cruise passengers naked. 
 

We like the opportunity to be as dressed up or casual as we like. When your work requires a certain dress code, being able to dress comfortably is a real treat. 
 

I think the perfect solution would be to have one or two formal or semi formal restaurants on board. When people want to dress up, they can go there. When they want to be business casual they can do MDR. When they want to stay in swim suits or sweats, buffet. If it bothers you to see people on board in general (not in your “dress code” restaurants) in shorts and flip flops the night you choose to be formal, I suggest you get some therapy and stop worrying about what others are doing. 

[Szt]

3 hours ago, Mary229 said:

There are equal and extensive studies on the behavior of the wealthy, the rich and the comfortable.  All people in the service industry should read those studies.  It is a mistake to judge clients by what they wear.  

I know many people who dress so people will think they have money. Most of the really wealthy people I know care less what others think than average. 
US politicians are a great example of dress not affecting behavior. Most wear suits, and most act pretty obnoxiously from time to time. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Szt

[Honolulu Blue]

36 minutes ago, Szt said:

Of course certain rules have to apply for health and safety. And most of us REALLY do not want to see most cruise passengers naked. 

Hmmm, this quote made me think of a certain charter cruise that has MOST of its passengers naked MOST of the time.  😀 They have their own policies and guidelines for appropriate times and places to cover up, of course.

[Mary229]

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I'm sure that there are some who view mainstream lines to be nothing more than a floating sailor bar.

You brought up the sailor bar initially not me