Well, I waited to get some more experience

[Caroldoll]

21 hours ago, Whipsnade said:

I don’t care who the chef is a $500 pp up charge for a meal is beyond the pale. Giant rip off. But it does seem to attract some pax. The Whip will abstain. 

I wouldn't mind it if it included endless caviar, lobster or elk! 

 

[Waltershipman]

9 minutes ago, Caroldoll said:

I wouldn't mind it if it included endless caviar, lobster or elk! 

 

I thought endless lobster was a given

Lol

[Caroldoll]

2 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

Well. All those companies are in the luxury market, but as on everything else, even there, we have sub categories on the same main segment:

 

Half-luxury: Azamara; Viking; Oceania.

Full-luxury: Seabourn, Silverseas, Regent, Crystal.

Post-modern luxury: EJ

 

Hope to have explained a bit better my stance on that market.

Seaborn does not have butlers.  This isn't luxury. Had to go down to the desk daily to make reservations.

 

[morpheusofthesea]

3 hours ago, florisdekort said:

You keep comparing to other cruise lines that aren’t in the luxury market either. First Azamara, now Viking. Maybe we just have different definitions of luxury. 
 

Maybe this industry expert can tell us his view of luxury ?

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/luxury-cruising-primer-dietmar-wertanzl

[morpheusofthesea]

1 hour ago, Whipsnade said:

Just, please, please, please get rid of so many cabins with tub shower only.   

We do not fit the 'proper' demographic ?  Walk-in showers are found mostly in handicapped or 'real' suites. It is too hard to get in and out of even the low profile tub/shower combos.

[Hlitner]

17 minutes ago, morpheusofthesea said:

Maybe this industry expert can tell us his view of luxury ?

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/luxury-cruising-primer-dietmar-wertanzl

Now we are really getting off topic, but it is good fun.  What I find troubling about the article is that Genting Hong Kong is still playing around with the cruise industry.  That company, which seems to be more about casinos than cruising, did a horrible job with their foray into Crystal Cruises, which was a darn shame.  So now, the "new" Crystal has to try and resurrect a great luxury cruise line with only a couple of older vessels.  We truly wish Crystal and A&K all the best and will do our best to give them our own support :).

 

But the sub-topic of luxury hotel chains getting into the cruise world is interesting.  Nothing new as the Radisson folks did it many years ago with "Radisson Seven Seas Cruises."  This eventually morphed in Regent which is one of the current luxury lines.  Ritz Carlton has now entered the fray, although one wonders if they survive with only 2 small luxury vessels.  We have long wondered why some large companies like Marriott/Bonvoy do not get into the premium or luxury cruise industry and take advantage of their large vacation club membership.  There is a Mexican resort company, Grupo Vidanta, that has been trying to get into the cruise industry by using an older vessel that they tried to bring up to luxury standards (very debatable).  Their ship is called the Vidanta Elegant and its future is in question.

 

The reality is that new cruise ships cost upwards of a $Billion and require a lot of support infrastructure.  And the few decent ship yards that build these ships are quite busy and require several years to fulfill orders.  This is not an industry that one can enter on a shoestring budget, and this is not a particularly good time to obtain the huge financing necessary for cruise lines.

 

Hank

[saminina]

Wonder when the expert was interviewed.   His employer at the time went bankrupt three months ago and had a very dark reputation long before shutting down.  

 

As a recognized expert, I'm still waiting to be interviewed by a trade magazine.  With just a bit of cruising experience, we can all claim to be experts.  Anyone with more than 30 days on Crystal has more luxury cruise experience than people leading Explora.  I'm discounting the hires from other lines because it appears the MSC people are calling the shots and ignoring input from their expensive outsiders.   In a way, that is fine.   However, much of the advertised product has been cut from time of purchase.   We'll be happy enough if the food budget does not get trimmed.

 

With tempered expectations, excited to board Explora.   Will be packing certain items that would normally be available on self proclaimed luxury lines.    Thanks to the (very) few objective folks on here for their printed guidance.

 

 

 

[Whipsnade]

Hank is right on. The capital requirement for this business is enormous. And a disaster like Covid is not over financially for cruise companies. Carnival with over 100 cruise ships. Yes, I said over 100. It is technically bankrupt. It cannot possibly generate enough cash to service the debt they were forced to pile on. Will they go out of business?  Probably not. The Arrisons are wily and very smart. Will probably manage to survive but no one should load up on their stock. 
And that is why the Aponte family of MSC is now in the catbird seat going forward. Their hundreds (yes, hundreds) of container ships were cleaning up in Covid and after with rates no one could have imagined. Now they have cash to burn. 

 

[Waltershipman]

15 minutes ago, saminina said:

Wonder when the expert was interviewed.   His employer at the time went bankrupt three months ago and had a very dark reputation long before shutting down.  

 

As a recognized expert, I'm still waiting to be interviewed by a trade magazine.  With just a bit of cruising experience, we can all claim to be experts.  Anyone with more than 30 days on Crystal has more luxury cruise experience than people leading Explora.  I'm discounting the hires from other lines because it appears the MSC people are calling the shots and ignoring input from their expensive outsiders.   In a way, that is fine.   However, much of the advertised product has been cut from time of purchase.   We'll be happy enough if the food budget does not get trimmed.

 

With tempered expectations, excited to board Explora.   Will be packing certain items that would normally be available on self proclaimed luxury lines.    Thanks to the (very) few objective folks on here for their printed guidance.

 

 

 

Thanks when do you sail

[Whipsnade]

Well Saminia guess I qualify. Done at least 50 Crystal cruises over last thirty years plus many on Seabourn, Silversea, Regent, Cunard and one (only) HAL. 

 

Don’t poo poo the folks at MSC/Explora just yet. There are some issues on board, yes. But I have found willing ears on all my concerns. Some have already been addressed. They are the wave of the future. Do you really think new Crystal with two thirty year old shops can compete?  I don’t and I LOVE Crystal. Going 60 days on Symphony in Jan. But I will be back here after my EI credits run out. 
Love to hear from you after you have been on board for st least ten days. 

[Nunagoras]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Now we are really getting off topic, but it is good fun.  What I find troubling about the article is that Genting Hong Kong is still playing around with the cruise industry.  That company, which seems to be more about casinos than cruising, did a horrible job with their foray into Crystal Cruises, which was a darn shame.  So now, the "new" Crystal has to try and resurrect a great luxury cruise line with only a couple of older vessels.  We truly wish Crystal and A&K all the best and will do our best to give them our own support :).

 

But the sub-topic of luxury hotel chains getting into the cruise world is interesting.  Nothing new as the Radisson folks did it many years ago with "Radisson Seven Seas Cruises."  This eventually morphed in Regent which is one of the current luxury lines.  Ritz Carlton has now entered the fray, although one wonders if they survive with only 2 small luxury vessels.  We have long wondered why some large companies like Marriott/Bonvoy do not get into the premium or luxury cruise industry and take advantage of their large vacation club membership.  There is a Mexican resort company, Grupo Vidanta, that has been trying to get into the cruise industry by using an older vessel that they tried to bring up to luxury standards (very debatable).  Their ship is called the Vidanta Elegant and its future is in question.

 

The reality is that new cruise ships cost upwards of a $Billion and require a lot of support infrastructure.  And the few decent ship yards that build these ships are quite busy and require several years to fulfill orders.  This is not an industry that one can enter on a shoestring budget, and this is not a particularly good time to obtain the huge financing necessary for cruise lines.

 

Hank

All what you say is absolutely true. Add to that the fact that running those ships at sea would require some expertise that really only a few would have. All that joint together would give you an idea of how difficult it will be for someone to enter this market. The likes of Marriott, etc. may to enter, but only on the day one of the biggies would ask for an investor to recover them from their challenges. Nobody will just to invest on ships that can't be delivered before 2028 or even later right now, without the expertise to run them from the past. They'll to purchase the biggies... At a set good price!

 

Off-topic? I know. Excuse me to be contributing to that, but at least it is cruise related.

[Host Jazzbeau]

3 hours ago, morpheusofthesea said:

Maybe this industry expert can tell us his view of luxury ?

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/luxury-cruising-primer-dietmar-wertanzl

He should have time, since his gig "managing hotel operations for Vantage Cruise Line's newly introduced Ocean Explorer" went poof with Vantage's bankruptcy...

[morpheusofthesea]

4 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

He should have time, since his gig "managing hotel operations for Vantage Cruise Line's newly introduced Ocean Explorer" went poof with Vantage's bankruptcy...

I guess he took the wrong 'fork in the road'. 

Or he didn't learn "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." YB

Edited September 23, 2023 by morpheusofthesea

[saminina]

Whipsnade,  you've already been praised by me for your posts.   Yours have given me hope for a pleasant time on board.  While you are sailing Symphony, I'll be on Serenity.

[DaveFr]

2 hours ago, saminina said:

Wonder when the expert was interviewed.   His employer at the time went bankrupt three months ago and had a very dark reputation long before shutting down.  

The article may be very recent but the interview took place on Sep 23, 2021. With that date, comments about Crystal and Genting make sense.

 

Dave

[Caroldoll]

3 hours ago, saminina said:

Wonder when the expert was interviewed.   His employer at the time went bankrupt three months ago and had a very dark reputation long before shutting down.  

 

As a recognized expert, I'm still waiting to be interviewed by a trade magazine.  With just a bit of cruising experience, we can all claim to be experts.  Anyone with more than 30 days on Crystal has more luxury cruise experience than people leading Explora.  I'm discounting the hires from other lines because it appears the MSC people are calling the shots and ignoring input from their expensive outsiders.   In a way, that is fine.   However, much of the advertised product has been cut from time of purchase.   We'll be happy enough if the food budget does not get trimmed.

 

With tempered expectations, excited to board Explora.   Will be packing certain items that would normally be available on self proclaimed luxury lines.    Thanks to the (very) few objective folks on here for their printed guidance.

 

 

 

I am sure it will be just fine and I do have your prescribed number of days, perhaps on most of them.

[Whipsnade]

Thank you Saminina. Some of my posts have annoyed others unfortunately. 
I really believe Explora is the future of luxury cruising. Of course there are some things about it we would like to see change like better lecturers and decent entertainment. I have spoken with the guy who selects them and he is working on it. I also anticipate that within the next year Odyssey Art at Sea will be on Explora. Also certain that as they roll out more ships there will be longer interesting cruises. Even the seven day ones they are doing now are designed so you can make some back to backs without repeat stops. So they are thinking. 
Looking forward to comments when you are on board. 
BTW.  There are many cabins that have only tub showers. If this is an issue double check with EJ or your TA as these are not well marked on deck plans and easy to make mistake as we did and have been stuck with a PH with tub and my wife has mobility issues. My fault. I never expected anything labeled Deluxe PH wouldn’t have separate walk in shower.

[Mr Luxury]

11 hours ago, Whipsnade said:

Thank you Saminina. Some of my posts have annoyed others unfortunately. 
I really believe Explora is the future of luxury cruising. Of course there are some things about it we would like to see change like better lecturers and decent entertainment. I have spoken with the guy who selects them and he is working on it. I also anticipate that within the next year Odyssey Art at Sea will be on Explora. Also certain that as they roll out more ships there will be longer interesting cruises. Even the seven day ones they are doing now are designed so you can make some back to backs without repeat stops. So they are thinking. 
Looking forward to comments when you are on board. 
BTW.  There are many cabins that have only tub showers. If this is an issue double check with EJ or your TA as these are not well marked on deck plans and easy to make mistake as we did and have been stuck with a PH with tub and my wife has mobility issues. My fault. I never expected anything labeled Deluxe PH wouldn’t have separate walk in shower.

I'm not sure that the future of luxury cruising is a ship that holds nine hundred guests and does seven day cruises.

I'm thinking that seven hundred is about max and cruises of twelve days and over

Edited September 24, 2023 by Mr Luxury

[Critically Cruising]

10 minutes ago, Mr Luxury said:

I'm not sure that the future of luxury cruising is a ship that holds nine hundred guests and dies seven day cruises.

 

Nor a ship where the little details get short shrift.

 

Reminds me of the magician who says "Watch the shiny object over here.  Don't look the other way, nothing to see over there."

 

 

[Nunagoras]

3 hours ago, Mr Luxury said:

I'm not sure that the future of luxury cruising is a ship that holds nine hundred guests and does seven day cruises.

I'm thinking that seven hundred is about max and cruises of twelve days and over

Let us to see things from another perspective. I know I'll be "crucified" again for a less than perfect comparison, but hey. Let's to see Cunard for an instance. Yes: Only the Queens Grill suites are true luxury, I know, but then... Those are as part of the same ship as Britannia staterooms.

 

By watching current Cunard pricing, they're among the most competitive pricing among all the industry, sometime the "cheap" cruising's corner these days, where MSC used to be. For no reason?... Yes; for a reason!... People in the below 60 these days are far from flocking to the "good ole days" traditions of sort. They simply don't care. The ones currently on the 60+ contingent will be the ones on the 70+ contingent by 2030, and retirement age limits growing just everywhere else. You'll find plenty of 70+ individuals still with a job in a not so distant time from now on. The ones on their 50's now are set to be the most active crowd of all times till very late on their age. No place for 12+ consecutive holiday days for them on the next 20 years to come. An operation starting now like EJ is set to be on soft opening till well in 2028, if not more. This is why they're now set on only 6 ships, no more. If successful, and they have it all to be, they'll to be 12-16 ships by 2032. That's what it is expected to be the final outcome of this one. Now what will be out of Cunard? My best bet? Adapt or die. No 3rd way.

 

Are there problems with current EJ? Yes. Will them need to go throughout the learning curve? Yes! But by the day the other lines would face the need to accommodate the generation change, EJ will be well established on the segment. Believe me!... And I'm not touching here the investment capabilities here. Crystal will likely to be out in 10 years if they can't build their newer ships accordingly. Oceania and Regent may very well follow suit if there is not a single new investor taking them inside to the next gen. Seabourn and Silversea seem a little bit safer... For now... The industry will dramatically to change. The expedition and yacht like segments are just another niche we aren't talking about here. This is for the top ocean going ships alike. The 900 guests segment will prevail. Either way; I believe the likes of regent are not that far away on 850 per ship.

[Mr Luxury]

12 minutes ago, Nunagoras said:

Let us to see things from another perspective. I know I'll be "crucified" again for a less than perfect comparison, but hey. Let's to see Cunard for an instance. Yes: Only the Queens Grill suites are true luxury, I know, but then... Those are as part of the same ship as Britannia staterooms.

 

By watching current Cunard pricing, they're among the most competitive pricing among all the industry, sometime the "cheap" cruising's corner these days, where MSC used to be. For no reason?... Yes; for a reason!... People in the below 60 these days are far from flocking to the "good ole days" traditions of sort. They simply don't care. The ones currently on the 60+ contingent will be the ones on the 70+ contingent by 2030, and retirement age limits growing just everywhere else. You'll find plenty of 70+ individuals still with a job in a not so distant time from now on. The ones on their 50's now are set to be the most active crowd of all times till very late on their age. No place for 12+ consecutive holiday days for them on the next 20 years to come. An operation starting now like EJ is set to be on soft opening till well in 2028, if not more. This is why they're now set on only 6 ships, no more. If successful, and they have it all to be, they'll to be 12-16 ships by 2032. That's what it is expected to be the final outcome of this one. Now what will be out of Cunard? My best bet? Adapt or die. No 3rd way.

 

Are there problems with current EJ? Yes. Will them need to go throughout the learning curve? Yes! But by the day the other lines would face the need to accommodate the generation change, EJ will be well established on the segment. Believe me!... And I'm not touching here the investment capabilities here. Crystal will likely to be out in 10 years if they can't build their newer ships accordingly. Oceania and Regent may very well follow suit if there is not a single new investor taking them inside to the next gen. Seabourn and Silversea seem a little bit safer... For now... The industry will dramatically to change. The expedition and yacht like segments are just another niche we aren't talking about here. This is for the top ocean going ships alike. The 900 guests segment will prevail. Either way; I believe the likes of regent are not that far away on 850 per ship.

So Silversea it is then.

That's the clear leader isn't it.

[Waltershipman]

19 minutes ago, Mr Luxury said:

So Silversea it is then.

That's the clear leader isn't it.

For me and my DW one important point is how the heart of the ship feels.  This may be a conglomeration of ambience , customer care ,food crew and fellow passengers The happiness or lack thereof transmits to guests. A few years back on Azamara we had an extremely great trip. All staff were visible interactive warm and accomodating. The ship feel was wonderful even though the ship was older  and smaller. I will also not forget on Seabourn when we were served snacks and cocktails outside our room as an event for each neighborhood and all passengers were in hall ways greeting and sharing good feelings

 

The ❤️ of a ship is that invisible yet critical ingredient 

 

All the best

[Caroldoll]

1 hour ago, Nunagoras said:

Let us to see things from another perspective. I know I'll be "crucified" again for a less than perfect comparison, but hey. Let's to see Cunard for an instance. Yes: Only the Queens Grill suites are true luxury, I know, but then... Those are as part of the same ship as Britannia staterooms.

 

By watching current Cunard pricing, they're among the most competitive pricing among all the industry, sometime the "cheap" cruising's corner these days, where MSC used to be. For no reason?... Yes; for a reason!... People in the below 60 these days are far from flocking to the "good ole days" traditions of sort. They simply don't care. The ones currently on the 60+ contingent will be the ones on the 70+ contingent by 2030, and retirement age limits growing just everywhere else. You'll find plenty of 70+ individuals still with a job in a not so distant time from now on. The ones on their 50's now are set to be the most active crowd of all times till very late on their age. No place for 12+ consecutive holiday days for them on the next 20 years to come. An operation starting now like EJ is set to be on soft opening till well in 2028, if not more. This is why they're now set on only 6 ships, no more. If successful, and they have it all to be, they'll to be 12-16 ships by 2032. That's what it is expected to be the final outcome of this one. Now what will be out of Cunard? My best bet? Adapt or die. No 3rd way.

 

Are there problems with current EJ? Yes. Will them need to go throughout the learning curve? Yes! But by the day the other lines would face the need to accommodate the generation change, EJ will be well established on the segment. Believe me!... And I'm not touching here the investment capabilities here. Crystal will likely to be out in 10 years if they can't build their newer ships accordingly. Oceania and Regent may very well follow suit if there is not a single new investor taking them inside to the next gen. Seabourn and Silversea seem a little bit safer... For now... The industry will dramatically to change. The expedition and yacht like segments are just another niche we aren't talking about here. This is for the top ocean going ships alike. The 900 guests segment will prevail. Either way; I believe the likes of regent are not that far away on 850 per ship.

I like your post.  My husband and I are 83 and 87.  We are VERY ACTIVE and nothing is too much or too little for us to do.  We like to think we are the new generation as we like the relaxed standards and some of what EJ is trying to do.  Before Covid we cruised three or four times a year.  We got plenty tired of dragging a tuxedo.  However, we are aware that some people take advantage like one of our Senators and do degrade the "feeling".  The less on the ship, the better for us and frankly we are hoping that our cruise which starts tomorrow is not full!  Hope to meet a lot of you!

 

[Hlitner]

22 hours ago, Caroldoll said:

Seaborn does not have butlers.  This isn't luxury. Had to go down to the desk daily to make reservations.

 

Hmmm.  While you are right that SB does not have butlers (nothing we ever missed) I do not understand why you have to "go down to the desk" for reservations.  On SB, the only reservations were in the TK Grll, and for the special TK dinners in the Colonnade.  Reservations for that stuff can be done anytime you walk in or past the hostess desk at the Colonnade (which you must do every time you enter or leave that venue).  

 

The entire butler issue is a topic unto itself.  Having cruised lots of cruise lines (EJ is our 17th line) and dozens of ships, we never understood the need for butlers.  DW does not want a stranger unpacking our clothes, and otherwise, the butlers really don't do anything that isn't normally done by simply calling room service or perhaps Guest Services.  In MSC's Yacht Club, the entire butler thing is a bit "over the top."  We sure do not need somebody to hold our hands while we go to the MDR or the main theater.  They do come in handy at embarkation and debarkation, but that is not much.   We had friends who cruised for about a month, in the largest suite on the Queen Mary2.  They had a butler at their beck and call, 24/7.  Towards the end of their cruise, they invited us for a small cocktail party in their suite  Their butler was all over the place making sure the party was properly stocked and served.  We were impressed (as our cabin was in steerage).  Our friends later told us that during their entire month, that one little party was the only time they found much use of their butler. 

 

I get it that for some folks it is an ego thing..."I have a butler."  But for most, they do not serve any purpose that cannot be easily handled by other simple means.

 

Hank 

[Mr Luxury]

4 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Hmmm.  While you are right that SB does not have butlers (nothing we ever missed) I do not understand why you have to "go down to the desk" for reservations.  On SB, the only reservations were in the TK Grll, and for the special TK dinners in the Colonnade.  Reservations for that stuff can be done anytime you walk in or past the hostess desk at the Colonnade (which you must do every time you enter or leave that venue).  

 

The entire butler issue is a topic unto itself.  Having cruised lots of cruise lines (EJ is our 17th line) and dozens of ships, we never understood the need for butlers.  DW does not want a stranger unpacking our clothes, and otherwise, the butlers really don't do anything that isn't normally done by simply calling room service or perhaps Guest Services.  In MSC's Yacht Club, the entire butler thing is a bit "over the top."  We sure do not need somebody to hold our hands while we go to the MDR or the main theater.  They do come in handy at embarkation and debarkation, but that is not much.   We had friends who cruised for about a month, in the largest suite on the Queen Mary2.  They had a butler at their beck and call, 24/7.  Towards the end of their cruise, they invited us for a small cocktail party in their suite  Their butler was all over the place making sure the party was properly stocked and served.  We were impressed (as our cabin was in steerage).  Our friends later told us that during their entire month, that one little party was the only time they found much use of their butler. 

 

I get it that for some folks it is an ego thing..."I have a butler."  But for most, they do not serve any purpose that cannot be easily handled by other simple means.

 

Hank 

I don't want a Butler on a ship as I have found that they can get in the way and do things that you do not want or do them at the wrong time.

I have come up with a revolutionary idea.

What about picking up the phone by the side of your bed to make a reservation.

That way you don't even have to get out of bed.

It's just a thought.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Mr Luxury