Gratuities Are Going Up Again, Effective 11.11.2023

[Jetdriver787]

31 minutes ago, Lakelife4me said:

I'm not sure I want to interact with the ass waiter. 😁🙃😁😇🍻

But you’re ok with the Head waiter? 🤷‍♂️🤣

[Lakelife4me]

7 minutes ago, Jetdriver787 said:

But you’re ok with the Head waiter? 🤷‍♂️🤣

Mic drop! 🤣

[icsys]

1 hour ago, Lakelife4me said:

I'm not sure I want to interact with the ass waiter. 😁🙃😁😇🍻

 

The assistant waiter probably does as much, if not more, as the main waiter.

Ask for a drink from the bar and its the assistant who brings it for you.

 

 

 

Edit.....

Then the penny drops..... 😴 😀😄

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by icsys

[RyderJ201]

5 hours ago, iscruisingdunzo said:

If automatically billed gratuities were optional you would not have to demand they be removed from your bill in the first place. 

 

And yes, I have had to demand they be removed, been questioned about why, and had to speak to a supervisor to remove them. 

 

Luckily, I will be demanding that the automatically billed gratuities be removed from my bill again next week and will happily report the experience along with the gratuity vibe from the ship. 

No way!!! 

I never have to Demand. That's total bull. They just add your cabin to a long list of others. No argument. 

[fizzywm]

I don't really get the argument I've seen a few times in this thread that tips shouldn't be paid prior to services rendered. You have to go out of your way to prepay gratuities by checking the box when you book or calling afterwards. Otherwise they are billed at the end of your cruise because they are added to the onboard charges. It's not that I disagree with the concept of not paying ahead, but if you don't want to pre-pay, then it's easy not to.

 

I also don't get the argument that people shouldn't be paying for back of house positions. Land based restaurants also include a tip out to positions like the dishwasher, bus boys, etc. I have to wonder why people feel it's different on a ship.

 

On 11/8/2023 at 7:26 AM, not-enough-cruising said:

The crew signed a contract for a guaranteed minimum.  If they weren’t happy with that sum, they should not have signed the contract.  
No one should sign a contract “hoping” for discretionary income. 
 

I am sorry, but no one is screwing anyone 

Do you apply this same logic to land-based restaurants and other tipped jobs on land? Nobody would be signing up to wait tables for the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour or the state minimum wages which can be as low as $8.75. They do it because tips make up the difference. It's not about "hoping" but about a reasonable expectation and indeed often what is advertised as the average pay for those positions. Likewise, the base/guaranteed pay on cruise ships is not what gets the employees to sign on to multiple contracts.

 

SHOULD it be this way? No, I don't think so, and I support the idea of the tips being built into the fare price just like how some restaurants are now opting out of the tip system and paying their employees a decent hourly rate and covering healthcare etc. But until things change, let's be realistic: removing tips isn't going to hurt the employers, just the employees. Wouldn't it be better to suggest these changes to Royal Caribbean, or instead choose to cruise with a line where gratuities are built in to the fare? I can only speak for myself and say for me those lines are unaffordable even factoring in the additional cost of the auto grats + cash tips on RCCL.

 

I can respect those in this thread that still pay the amount of the auto grats in cash instead, but that's still taking away pay from those they can't tip in cash in the "other" positions–just like you would if you stiffed your server in a land based restaurant.

[not-enough-cruising]

15 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

I don't really get the argument I've seen a few times in this thread that tips shouldn't be paid prior to services rendered. You have to go out of your way to prepay gratuities by checking the box when you book or calling afterwards. Otherwise they are billed at the end of your cruise because they are added to the onboard charges. It's not that I disagree with the concept of not paying ahead, but if you don't want to pre-pay, then it's easy not to.

 

I also don't get the argument that people shouldn't be paying for back of house positions. Land based restaurants also include a tip out to positions like the dishwasher, bus boys, etc. I have to wonder why people feel it's different on a ship.

 

Do you apply this same logic to land-based restaurants and other tipped jobs on land? Nobody would be signing up to wait tables for the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour or the state minimum wages which can be as low as $8.75. They do it because tips make up the difference. It's not about "hoping" but about a reasonable expectation and indeed often what is advertised as the average pay for those positions. Likewise, the base/guaranteed pay on cruise ships is not what gets the employees to sign on to multiple contracts.

 

SHOULD it be this way? No, I don't think so, and I support the idea of the tips being built into the fare price just like how some restaurants are now opting out of the tip system and paying their employees a decent hourly rate and covering healthcare etc. But until things change, let's be realistic: removing tips isn't going to hurt the employers, just the employees. Wouldn't it be better to suggest these changes to Royal Caribbean, or instead choose to cruise with a line where gratuities are built in to the fare? I can only speak for myself and say for me those lines are unaffordable even factoring in the additional cost of the auto grats + cash tips on RCCL.

 

I can respect those in this thread that still pay the amount of the auto grats in cash instead, but that's still taking away pay from those they can't tip in cash in the "other" positions–just like you would if you stiffed your server in a land based restaurant.

Comparing this situation to a land based restaurant is like comparing apples and artichokes; no where near the same. 
 

Land based restaurants do not give the “behind the scenes” people the same guaranteed wage contract as public facing staff. 
 

This salary is quite fair, and is paid for with your cruise fare. There is no reason to tip anyone who doesn’t go above the normal expected behavior. Dishwashers and laundry get paid to just do dishes and laundry; there is no way to go above and beyond in any capacity that enhances my experience. 
 

 I also disagree with your assessment that the base minimum isn’t what gets the crew to sign the contract. This base amount isn more than they can ever think to make at home in years; let’s not pretend it is a paltry amount. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by not-enough-cruising

[jean87510]

5 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

I don't really get the argument I've seen a few times in this thread that tips shouldn't be paid prior to services rendered. You have to go out of your way to prepay gratuities by checking the box when you book or calling afterwards. Otherwise they are billed at the end of your cruise because they are added to the onboard charges. It's not that I disagree with the concept of not paying ahead, but if you don't want to pre-pay, then it's easy not to.

 

I also don't get the argument that people shouldn't be paying for back of house positions. Land based restaurants also include a tip out to positions like the dishwasher, bus boys, etc. I have to wonder why people feel it's different on a ship.

 

Do you apply this same logic to land-based restaurants and other tipped jobs on land? Nobody would be signing up to wait tables for the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour or the state minimum wages which can be as low as $8.75. They do it because tips make up the difference. It's not about "hoping" but about a reasonable expectation and indeed often what is advertised as the average pay for those positions. Likewise, the base/guaranteed pay on cruise ships is not what gets the employees to sign on to multiple contracts.

 

SHOULD it be this way? No, I don't think so, and I support the idea of the tips being built into the fare price just like how some restaurants are now opting out of the tip system and paying their employees a decent hourly rate and covering healthcare etc. But until things change, let's be realistic: removing tips isn't going to hurt the employers, just the employees. Wouldn't it be better to suggest these changes to Royal Caribbean, or instead choose to cruise with a line where gratuities are built in to the fare? I can only speak for myself and say for me those lines are unaffordable even factoring in the additional cost of the auto grats + cash tips on RCCL.

 

I can respect those in this thread that still pay the amount of the auto grats in cash instead, but that's still taking away pay from those they can't tip in cash in the "other" positions–just like you would if you stiffed your server in a land based restaurant.

Question.  Would you still tip on top of the autogratuities?  And if so, why?  If the service fee is paid, why the need to give more?  Are the autogratuities being used as an additional bonus incentive by the cruise line?  Recently I was on the Vision.  I had a prebooked specialty dining dinner at Izumi.  The gratuities were prepaid.  We did not give extra as the tip was already collected at 18% prior to eating.  The waiter was not stiffed.  His tip was prepaid.  We did not feel guilty at all. Our waiter was fine.  It wasn't as if he came in and performed a song and dance routine.  We just said to each other hey he got his tip.  My point is I would rather have everything included and not have to walk around with $2 bills and try to keep up with the Jones.  I can't be running around on my vacation worried that the ice cream girl isn't getting tipped or the busboys.  I feel this is the cruise lines job.  And if they want to do the auto gs then fine.  But people have to stop with the tip shaming and bragging if this does happen.  

[fizzywm]

11 minutes ago, jean87510 said:

Question.  Would you still tip on top of the autogratuities?  And if so, why?  If the service fee is paid, why the need to give more?  Are the autogratuities being used as an additional bonus incentive by the cruise line?  Recently I was on the Vision.  I had a prebooked specialty dining dinner at Izumi.  The gratuities were prepaid.  We did not give extra as the tip was already collected at 18% prior to eating.  The waiter was not stiffed.  His tip was prepaid.  We did not feel guilty at all. Our waiter was fine.  It wasn't as if he came in and performed a song and dance routine.  We just said to each other hey he got his tip.  My point is I would rather have everything included and not have to walk around with $2 bills and try to keep up with the Jones.  I can't be running around on my vacation worried that the ice cream girl isn't getting tipped or the busboys.  I feel this is the cruise lines job.  And if they want to do the auto gs then fine.  But people have to stop with the tip shaming and bragging if this does happen.  

I do tip on top of the auto gratuities depending on the situation. The head waiter on my last cruise took great care of me so I gave him extra. I usually give the housekeepers at least a few extra dollars per day the same way I do at land-based hotels. Of course I don't think you stiffed your waiter at Izumi by paying him the 18% included. My post was mostly in reference to the comments in this thread about removing the auto grats because of the guaranteed salary. That ends up removing pay from back of house positions that expect some of their pay to come from tips. The same way not tipping a server in a US land-based restaurant screws the server and the back of house out of expected pay. They did not sign on to work expecting the guaranteed amount of as low as ~$8 per hour depending on the state.

 

15 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Land based restaurants do not give the “behind the scenes” people the same guaranteed wage contract as public facing staff.

That's exactly what minimum wage is. No one is working at a US land-based restaurant expecting to only make the minimum wage. They know a big part of the money comes from tips. Even dishwashers and cooks that make a few bucks more than servers would probably not be signing on without tip share. Otherwise why would restaurants be offering tip share?

Edited November 10, 2023 by fizzywm

[not-enough-cruising]

5 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

I do tip on top of the auto gratuities depending on the situation. The head waiter on my last cruise took great care of me so I gave him extra. I usually give the housekeepers at least a few extra dollars per day the same way I do at land-based hotels. Of course I don't think you stiffed your waiter at Izumi by paying him the 18% included. My post was mostly in reference to the comments in this thread about removing the auto grats because of the guaranteed salary. That ends up removing pay from back of house positions that expect some of their pay to come from tips. The same way not tipping a server in a US land-based restaurant screws the server and the back of house out of expected pay. They did not sign on to work expecting the guaranteed amount of as low as ~$8 per hour depending on the state.

 

That's exactly what minimum wage is. No one is working at a US land-based restaurant expecting to only make the minimum wage. They know a big part of the money comes from tips. Even dishwashers and cooks that make a few bucks more than servers would probably not be signing on without tip share. Otherwise why would restaurants be offering tip share?

You are confusing “guaranteed salary” with “minimum wage” 

[fizzywm]

Just now, not-enough-cruising said:

You are confusing “guaranteed salary” with “minimum wage” 

A distinction without a difference when we are talking about full time employees in tipped positions.

[not-enough-cruising]

2 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

A distinction without a difference when we are talking about full time employees in tipped positions.

Who determines what is and is not a tipped position? 
 

hint; it’s up to each individual 

[Husky1987]

11 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

My post was mostly in reference to the comments in this thread about removing the auto grats because of the guaranteed salary. That ends up removing pay from back of house positions that expect some of their pay to come from tips.

 

Except most understand that those back of house positions are contractually guaranteed a certain pay each month, only some of which is covered by the auto grats.  Even if every passenger moved auto grats, the cruise line would still be obligated to pay them that guaranteed monthly pay.

[fizzywm]

7 minutes ago, Husky1987 said:

 

Except most understand that those back of house positions are contractually guaranteed a certain pay each month, only some of which is covered by the auto grats.  Even if every passenger moved auto grats, the cruise line would still be obligated to pay them that guaranteed monthly pay.

The same way servers and dishwashers in US land-based restaurants make a guaranteed wage that isn't very competitive until tips or tip share is added in. People don't work in these positions "hoping" for extra money, they work with an expectation of an average salary that includes some level of tips on top of the guarantee.

[fizzywm]

14 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Who determines what is and is not a tipped position? 
 

hint; it’s up to each individual 

Society and culture including employers, and in this case Royal Caribbean by necessitating opting out of gratuities. They could bundle it in and pay more competitively like other cruise lines, instead they go with the tipping culture. Like I said, I'm not against that changing, but me removing my auto grats isn't going to make the difference except to reduce someone's pay.

[not-enough-cruising]

3 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

The same way servers and dishwashers in US land-based restaurants make a guaranteed wage that isn't very competitive until tips or tip share is added in. People don't work in these positions "hoping" for extra money, they work with an expectation of an average salary that includes some level of tips on top of the guarantee.

But cruise ship pay is very competitive. 

[not-enough-cruising]

3 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Society and culture including employers, and in this case Royal Caribbean by necessitating opting out of gratuities. They could bundle it in and pay more competitively like other cruise lines, instead they go with the tipping culture. Like I said, I'm not against that changing, but me removing my auto grats isn't going to make the difference except to reduce someone's pay.

ALL mainstream cruise lines pay according to the same scale. It’s an international standard, there is no way around it. 

[Husky1987]

10 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

The same way servers and dishwashers in US land-based restaurants make a guaranteed wage that isn't very competitive until tips or tip share is added in. People don't work in these positions "hoping" for extra money, they work with an expectation of an average salary that includes some level of tips on top of the guarantee.

 

Also, we have no guarantee whatsoever that any auto grats above and beyond the guaranteed contract pay are actually distributed to the back of house folks.  

[fizzywm]

Just now, not-enough-cruising said:

But cruise ship pay is very competitive. 

Yes, like server jobs in restaurants can be competitive once the tips are factored in.

 

I'll give an example:

The basic wage per ILO is $653 per month.

Maybe that is competitive in the Philippines per the post earlier in this thread.

Most of my room stewards on past cruises were Indonesian.

 

The median salary in Indonesia is around $669/mo according to many sources including this one: https://www.salaryexplorer.com/average-salary-wage-comparison-indonesia-c101

 

Do you really think that's competitive for someone working overseas 7 days a week for 6 months? Of course it's not. The tips are what make the job pay competitively just like restaurant pay in the US.

[fizzywm]

3 minutes ago, Husky1987 said:

 

Also, we have no guarantee whatsoever that any auto grats above and beyond the guaranteed contract pay are actually distributed to the back of house folks.  

It might not be going where it should, so why pay it at all? Is that your argument here? And does the same argument apply if you tip on a credit card statement at a land-based restaurant? We can't be sure where that is going either. Does that stop you from tipping when you eat out?

[Husky1987]

By the way, all this from me is coming from someone who has always promoted keeping auto grats, plus tipping cash to bartenders, cabin stewards, specialty wait staff, and WJ bus staff.  Hell, my wife has even been known to hand out a good chunk of her $1 bills to people cleaning bathrooms and stair railings.  

 

I haven't decided what to do yet, but my thought process has definitely changed with this last bump, and I very well may be one of those auto grat removers and tip all in cash people from here forward.

[Husky1987]

2 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

And does the same argument apply if you tip on a credit card statement at a land-based restaurant? We can't be sure where that is going either. Does that stop you from tipping when you eat out?

 

Not at all.  My wife always laughs at my overtipping. I usually tip 20% on the CC for Uncle Sam's eyes and if service was great I'll give the server extra in cash so he/she can keep it off the books if they choose.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Husky1987

[not-enough-cruising]

15 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Yes, like server jobs in restaurants can be competitive once the tips are factored in.

 

I'll give an example:

The basic wage per ILO is $653 per month.

Maybe that is competitive in the Philippines per the post earlier in this thread.

Most of my room stewards on past cruises were Indonesian.

 

The median salary in Indonesia is around $669/mo according to many sources including this one: https://www.salaryexplorer.com/average-salary-wage-comparison-indonesia-c101

 

Do you really think that's competitive for someone working overseas 7 days a week for 6 months? Of course it's not. The tips are what make the job pay competitively just like restaurant pay in the US.

In Indonesia a housekeeper makes far less than the median, firstly. 
 

Secondly, I tip my room steward, so that argument is moot. 

[mek]

39 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

The same way servers and dishwashers in US land-based restaurants make a guaranteed wage that isn't very competitive until tips or tip share is added in. People don't work in these positions "hoping" for extra money, they work with an expectation of an average salary that includes some level of tips on top of the guarantee.

But in this case the amount I tip my server is shared in a land based restaurant and I'm not expected to tip extra to cover the behind the scenes workers.

Edited November 10, 2023 by mek

[fizzywm]

Just now, not-enough-cruising said:

In Indonesia a housekeeper makes far less than the median, firstly. 
 

Secondly, I tip my room steward, so that argument is moot. 

In your post I originally quoted you said:

 

"The crew signed a contract for a guaranteed minimum.  If they weren’t happy with that sum, they should not have signed the contract.  
No one should sign a contract “hoping” for discretionary income."

 

My point since the beginning is that they clearly sign on expecting to make a good deal more than the guaranteed minimum. The minimum itself is not necessarily competitive for a job requiring working long shifts for 7 days a week, 6 month contracts overseas, away from families and sleeping in a small windowless room.

 

Good for you that you tip your steward. But why do you tip them if you think the guaranteed minimum is enough?

[fizzywm]

7 minutes ago, mek said:

But in this case the amount I tip my server is shared in a land based restaurant and I'm not expected to tip extra to cover the behind the scenes workers.

Regardless, you are ultimately tipping employees you don't see either way. Either way they choose these jobs expecting (not "hoping") to make a fairly significant chunk of their money from tips. The minimum salary is not competitive in either scenario until tips are factored in. Like it or not, and I don't like it either. And I'm excepting the rare cases of restaurants in the US that have opted out of tipping and either make it up with higher menu prices or a service charge that actually goes to employees, like how some cruise lines include gratuities in the fare.

Edited November 10, 2023 by fizzywm