Walking sticks and P&O

[david63]

3 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I assume that you would not be permitted to use the tender.

And how will this be "policed"? In my experience of using tenders if you wait until the "rush" has gone you just go down to the tender and get on so there is nobody there to check if you have accepted the "invite" or not. I suppose it could flag up when you scanned your cruise card - but that would require IT to get involved, and we all know what would happen with that!

 

One scenario that appears to have been overlooked is that of folding walking sticks. If you sometimes need a walking stick then get a folding one, put it in your hand luggage as you arrive at the terminal and once through check-in take it out again - sounds like a good business opportunity🔆😇👍

[zap99]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

We have no problem with a step test.  What we dislike is the idea that despite saying we need no assistance he apparently is going to be made to prove it separately not as an ordinary passenger would be. 

 

The completing of an online form and having some administrative person sitting judging what is effectively a tick box exercise resulting in my husband being singled out as a "risk" and being asked to prove himself is verging on humiliating.  Being informed he most likely will be invited to go to a room to be "judged" on his ability to step over whatever obstacles they have set up is the cause of the problem.

 

While having every sympathy that people are abusing the system and P&O want to stamp it out, choosing to cause stress and upset for people who have actually done exactly as requested by filling in the required form and providing a full explanation as per the "Other" tickbox is not going to weed out the abusers but simply upset someone who has been honest and explained in the fullest way possible why they may or may not take a simple walking stick in their suitcase.

 

 

I can't recall which ship, but in the queue for the tender folk were asked to step over a different coloured strip of carpet. I assumed it was the ' step test ' and designed to stop folk falling down the gap. TBH. I can't see the issue.

[Megabear2]

17 minutes ago, david63 said:

And how will this be "policed"? In my experience of using tenders if you wait until the "rush" has gone you just go down to the tender and get on so there is nobody there to check if you have accepted the "invite" or not. I suppose it could flag up when you scanned your cruise card - but that would require IT to get involved, and we all know what would happen with that!

 

One scenario that appears to have been overlooked is that of folding walking sticks. If you sometimes need a walking stick then get a folding one, put it in your hand luggage as you arrive at the terminal and once through check-in take it out again - sounds like a good business opportunity🔆😇👍

Ours IS a folding stick ...

 

However moving on.  On the same day I filled in the P&O form I completed two near identical ones for Cunard.  Just spoken with them, this time a man medically trained with three years experience who is well aware of fibromyalgia and its effects. He confirmed receipt of the form, asked how often the stick is used and how fibromyalgia is managed.  After being told informed my forms were completed correctly, no help required in an emergency noted although if during the voyage a major flare up occurred could we let them know.  Forms accepted no further requirements or action required and thank you for understanding the new rules. Any tender ports (we have several across these cruises) will be carried out by everyone in the normal way, not individuals.

 

I did mention what was happening with the sister company and he said it's a new system and lots of confusion all round unfortunately. He remarked some non medically trained staff are dealing with calls and emails and hopefully when the next communication comes it will be someone with medical knowledge.

 

OH is much happier with this result from Cunard thankfully.

 

 

Zap, the problem isn't the test, it's being told you will be given an appointment as if you have to prove yourself when the cruise actually has no tender ports. You will report at the time they state and where, it's not on boarding apparently,.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Megabear2

[david63]

4 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

when the next communication comes it will be someone with medical knowledge.

Should that not have been in place from the start?

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, david63 said:

Should that not have been in place from the start?

Your guess is as good as mine I'm afraid.

[FangedRose]

I'm sorry if I'm missing something. But, surely a walking stick is a mobility aid? Even if it is not needed all the time?  It's been a long time since they were a fashion accessory. It is sod's law that the day an emergency occurs is the very same day the walking stick (aid) is needed and the staff need to be aware and put the logistics in place.

[laslomas]

57 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

I'm sorry if I'm missing something. But, surely a walking stick is a mobility aid? Even if it is not needed all the time?  It's been a long time since they were a fashion accessory. It is sod's law that the day an emergency occurs is the very same day the walking stick (aid) is needed and the staff need to be aware and put the logistics in place.

 

It all seems to be very vague, and a bit of a minefield. I have had the email, and so far am ignoring it until I am sure whether I need to complete it. My cruise is not until April 2024, so plenty of time for requirements to change.

 

 I wonder if turning up at embarkation with a walking stick umbrella would cause a commotion if you had not said you were bringing one 🤔

 

I also think for some people a walking stick, or cane, is a fashion accessory. Try telling Chris Eubank that his fashionable walking stick is actually a mobility aid.

[zap99]

1 hour ago, FangedRose said:

I'm sorry if I'm missing something. But, surely a walking stick is a mobility aid? Even if it is not needed all the time?  It's been a long time since they were a fashion accessory. It is sod's law that the day an emergency occurs is the very same day the walking stick (aid) is needed and the staff need to be aware and put the logistics in place.

P&O aren't doing themselves any favours trying to come up with a one size fits all policy. But in an emergency don't they need to ensure that folk can take to the lifeboats in an emergency with minimal assistance. On our recent TUI trip from Spain, passengers who required assistance were asked to wait in their seats until all others had disembarked.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by zap99

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, FangedRose said:

I'm sorry if I'm missing something. But, surely a walking stick is a mobility aid? Even if it is not needed all the time?  It's been a long time since they were a fashion accessory. It is sod's law that the day an emergency occurs is the very same day the walking stick (aid) is needed and the staff need to be aware and put the logistics in place.

Yes it's an aid. The question is after you've told them (question 2 first page) you tick no assistance needed.  Page 3 however your walking stick disappears but mobility aids reappear.  Then there's the other box for disabilities that can't be seen. Fill that in at your peril by way of explanation of why you MAY have a walking stick with you even if not using it.  That box being answered brings the death of you may be refused boarding and lots of other questions you probably don't have an answer to.  

 

The guy I spoke with yesterday guessed at least 33% to 50% on some vessels will have walking sticks and have never declared them as it wasn't required or compulsory.  Under this new block application of "mobility aids" he agreed many won't realise it's every single one of them.  He also said it would be very silly to suggest walking stick users would all need the assistance "recommended" under section 2, ie someone to assist on stairs in an emergency but he is instructed to tell them that's the choice they should pick.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Megabear2

[FangedRose]

18 minutes ago, laslomas said:

 

It all seems to be very vague, and a bit of a minefield. I have had the email, and so far am ignoring it until I am sure whether I need to complete it. My cruise is not until April 2024, so plenty of time for requirements to change.

 

 I wonder if turning up at embarkation with a walking stick umbrella would cause a commotion if you had not said you were bringing one 🤔

 

I also think for some people a walking stick, or cane, is a fashion accessory. Try telling Chris Eubank that his fashionable walking stick is actually a mobility aid.

I don't think it's vague. If you need, or may need, help walking please tell us. If you think you may need help fill the form in. If you don't fill it in and turn up with a walking stick you may get turned away. The opposite won't be the case 

[Megabear2]

6 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

The opposite won't be the case 

Actually that may happen if they have too many declared for them to have enough staff to handle them.! That's how I ended up discussing 30% to 50% on some vessels.

 

Clearly that isn't the intention as it would be madness but the form is so badly designed for what is now apparently a mass application it could be applied like that.

 

The "new" form apparently is adapted from the one for persons with serious problems and according to my Cunard caller not really fit for the new purpose. 

[Cathygh]

I received this from  a TA earlier which might shed light on things

"it is very important that you confirm any mobility issues right from the outset as we are required to book an ‘Evacuation Chair’ for anyone who cannot manage stairs on their own, or a ‘One to One Assistance Guide’ for anyone who walks with the aid of a stick or requires any level of assistance when using stairs. These both need to be booked even if you are taking a carer as you could easily be parted during the cruise, and availability for such assistance is very limited, so adding this later may not be possible."

 

 

[Cathygh]

8 hours ago, david63 said:

And how will this be "policed"? In my experience of using tenders if you wait until the "rush" has gone you just go down to the tender and get on so there is nobody there to check if you have accepted the "invite" or not. I suppose it could flag up when you scanned your cruise card - but that would require IT to get involved, and we all know what would happen with that!

 

 

You need a ticket to get on the tender and you can't get a ticket until you have done the step test

[Megabear2]

17 minutes ago, Cathygh said:

You need a ticket to get on the tender and you can't get a ticket until you have done the step test

If you are on excursions I have never had a tender ticket on any line.  Yes, there's the carpet step at the tender station but certainly nothing else.

[Megabear2]

20 minutes ago, Cathygh said:

I received this from  a TA earlier which might shed light on things

"it is very important that you confirm any mobility issues right from the outset as we are required to book an ‘Evacuation Chair’ for anyone who cannot manage stairs on their own, or a ‘One to One Assistance Guide’ for anyone who walks with the aid of a stick or requires any level of assistance when using stairs. These both need to be booked even if you are taking a carer as you could easily be parted during the cruise, and availability for such assistance is very limited, so adding this later may not be possible."

 

 

This is the newly introduced policy as described to me which came in during the past few weeks.   It is retrospective apparently and anyone who has already filled in a paper or emailed form will need to do it again on the cruise personaliser as it attaches from there directly to the booking.  

 

The problem with being retrospective according to the guys I spoke to is people don't understand the policy has changed, the website doesn't detail the information and confusion is reigning.  The Cunard guy told me he had done little else for five days but log assistance forms for people who'd rung to query what the email is about.

 

The "very limited" wording is causing much consternation as no one actually can say what the limited help numbers are for people who use sticks and are concerned they may have missed the boat (sory about the pun) and might not be able to go.

[terrierjohn]

7 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

This is the newly introduced policy as described to me which came in during the past few weeks.   It is retrospective apparently and anyone who has already filled in a paper or emailed form will need to do it again on the cruise personaliser as it attaches from there directly to the booking.  

 

The problem with being retrospective according to the guys I spoke to is people don't understand the policy has changed, the website doesn't detail the information and confusion is reigning.  The Cunard guy told me he had done little else for five days but log assistance forms for people who'd rung to query what the email is about.

 

The "very limited" wording is causing much consternation as no one actually can say what the limited help numbers are for people who use sticks and are concerned they may have missed the boat (sory about the pun) and might not be able to go.

For those who have already filled in the old ones, I read it that you only need to complete a new questionnaire if circumstances have changed.

[Megabear2]

7 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

For those who have already filled in the old ones, I read it that you only need to complete a new questionnaire if circumstances have changed.

I cannot say you are wrong or right.  I can tell you the original form (emailed 72 hours after booking) which was returned to Cunard was not registered on our booking for next September and I was advised to resubmit it via the new electronic system - I hadn't done one for January 2025 but was advised by the P&O agent to do so immediately due to "limited" assistance.

 

I appreciate your needs are much more important and everything is most likely there but truthfully I would double check based on the information travel agents and those who raise queries are currently receiving.

 

Basically it seems to be a big muddle.

[david63]

3 hours ago, Cathygh said:

You need a ticket to get on the tender and you can't get a ticket until you have done the step test

Once the initial rush has finished you do not, in my experience, need a ticket - you just go down to the tender. Also anyone in a suite does not need a ticket at any time, they too can just go straight to the tender.

[Megabear2]

Interestingly if you go to book a cruise online now the check out page has included the new wording terms and you are required to acknowledge it along with the stuff about covid, oxygen etc. As it's agreed a walking stick is a mobility aid clearly users of them have to complete the form whereas before very few did believing it to refer to scooters, wheelchairs etc.

 

"

Here's some important information about your holiday.

**Assistance Requirements**

In the unlikely event of an emergency, it is important we have sufficient and specific support for guests who require additional assistance, and we have advance notice of this. Please read the following declaration of assistance needs for your voyage, even if you are travelling with someone who can support you. Guests who are unable to get to their assembly stations independently (which could involve several flights of stairs as lifts will not be available) due to a disability, health, or mental capacity must be pre-registered for assistance to ensure we have sufficient support. Failure to provide this could result in being denied boarding at your own expense. If you do require assistance using the below statements, please advise us of the level of assistance required.

Someone to guide and steady me on the stairs (121 assistance) For anyone bringing a mobility aid this is a recommended minimum requirement.

I'm unable to use stairs (emergency evacuation chair) For anyone who is a full /part time wheelchair or mobility scooter user this is a mandatory requirement."

[Snow Hill]

6 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Interestingly if you go to book a cruise online now the check out page has included the new wording terms and you are required to acknowledge it along with the stuff about covid, oxygen etc. As it's agreed a walking stick is a mobility aid clearly users of them have to complete the form whereas before very few did believing it to refer to scooters, wheelchairs etc.

 

"

Here's some important information about your holiday.

**Assistance Requirements**

In the unlikely event of an emergency, it is important we have sufficient and specific support for guests who require additional assistance, and we have advance notice of this. Please read the following declaration of assistance needs for your voyage, even if you are travelling with someone who can support you. Guests who are unable to get to their assembly stations independently (which could involve several flights of stairs as lifts will not be available) due to a disability, health, or mental capacity must be pre-registered for assistance to ensure we have sufficient support. Failure to provide this could result in being denied boarding at your own expense. If you do require assistance using the below statements, please advise us of the level of assistance required.

Someone to guide and steady me on the stairs (121 assistance) For anyone bringing a mobility aid this is a recommended minimum requirement.

I'm unable to use stairs (emergency evacuation chair) For anyone who is a full /part time wheelchair or mobility scooter user this is a mandatory requirement."

Are P&O trying to put off those who have minor Mobil issues from travelling with them? My understanding of a a walking stick, is that is an assistive device not a mobility aid. Suspect the the form was written by someone without a medical back ground.

 

 

 

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, Snow Hill said:

Are P&O trying to put off those who have minor Mobil issues from travelling with them? My understanding of a a walking stick, is that is an assistive device not a mobility aid. Suspect the the form was written by someone without a medical back ground.

 

 

 

It is an adapted form from the previous one used for more serious requirements. 

 

A walking stick of absolutely any type (or for whatever use) under these new conditions has to be declared. My husband doesn't use it to walk, it's main use is to help with getting from bed or after sitting still for hours such as the plane journey - to get you going so to speak.

 

To both cruise lines it is a mobility device not assistance.

 

I noticed on Cunard site yesterday when booking a cruise this new policy is in bold as a tickbox you must accept as a booking condition and so checked P&O with a dummy booking.  It is identical.  Walking sticks are declarable as mobility devices.

[Snow Hill]

15 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

It is an adapted form from the previous one used for more serious requirements. 

 

A walking stick of absolutely any type (or for whatever use) under these new conditions has to be declared. My husband doesn't use it to walk, it's main use is to help with getting from bed or after sitting still for hours such as the plane journey - to get you going so to speak.

 

To both cruise lines it is a mobility device not assistance.

 

I noticed on Cunard site yesterday when booking a cruise this new policy is in bold as a tickbox you must accept as a booking condition and so checked P&O with a dummy booking.  It is identical.  Walking sticks are declarable as mobility devices.

I have used a walking stick from time to time as a assistive device, as my physio call it. I have on occasions had inflammation of the tendons in my knee, the result of a football injury in my late teens. I used the stick as a balance aid when standing still, not when walking, although I do us walking poles when out walking in the countryside. I don’t need any assistance walking and would feel insulted if there was a suggestion that they were defined as mobility aids, when they are not.

 

I have taken my walking poles with me when we went to Norway, does it mean I have to declare them as a mobility aid ? 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Snow Hill

[Megabear2]

6 minutes ago, Snow Hill said:

I have used a walking stick from time to time as a assistive device, as my physio call it. I have on occasions had inflammation of the tendons in my knee, the result of a football injury in my late teens. I used the stick as a balance aid when standing still, not when walking, although I do us walking poles when out walking in the countryside. I don’t need any assistance walking and would feel insulted if there was a suggestion that they were defined as mobility aids, when they are not.

I'm afraid P&O will disagree - the whole reason this thread started is because we ignored the form filling.  If you wish to take it onboard you must declare it.  When I said no or why I've been told boarding may be denied at my own cost.

 

I believe this new policy should be in great big letters on the website, spelt out over the telephone and for P&O and travel agents to spell out clearly that they consider a walking stick a mobility aid.

 

Totally understand the insult bit. My OH feels exactly the same and is extremely upset.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Megabear2

[Megabear2]

11 minutes ago, Snow Hill said:

I have used a walking stick from time to time as a assistive device, as my physio call it. I have on occasions had inflammation of the tendons in my knee, the result of a football injury in my late teens. I used the stick as a balance aid when standing still, not when walking, although I do us walking poles when out walking in the countryside. I don’t need any assistance walking and would feel insulted if there was a suggestion that they were defined as mobility aids, when they are not.

 

I have taken my walking poles with me when we went to Norway, does it mean I have to declare them as a mobility aid ? 

I looked up the definition of mobility aid - everyone knows how pedantic I am!  Wikipedia states:

 

"Traditionally the phrase "mobility aid" has applied mainly to low technology mechanical devices. The term also appears in government documents, for example dealing with tax concessions of various kinds.[2] It refers to those devices whose use enables a freedom of movement similar to that of unassisted walking or standing up from a chair."

 

It then breaks everything down by type, and yes a walking stick as defined by various worldwide bodies is a mobility aid so P&O are correct to call it one.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobility_aid

 

 

[yorkshirephil]

28 minutes ago, Snow Hill said:

I have used a walking stick from time to time as a assistive device, as my physio call it. I have on occasions had inflammation of the tendons in my knee, the result of a football injury in my late teens. I used the stick as a balance aid when standing still, not when walking, although I do us walking poles when out walking in the countryside. I don’t need any assistance walking and would feel insulted if there was a suggestion that they were defined as mobility aids, when they are not.

 

I have taken my walking poles with me when we went to Norway, does it mean I have to declare them as a mobility aid ? 

Tomayto, tomahto, call it what you will with the current rules you may not get on a P&O ship with a walking stick. I have used a hiking pole for many years as do lots of hikers, neither as a walking aid or assistive device, for the last year I have taken a pole on my cruises for port days, it is packed in my case. In reality it was used to help me walk further that I could without it plus if I had a back spasm I would unlikely stumble/fall. I have completed the form saying I am taking a stick but I need no assistance, that should now be the end of it, but who knows, if this is still bubbling away when I take my next P&O/Cunard cruise I will fill in the form again and say I won't be taking a stick and pack my walking pole as usual. It will end up just the same as the old paper health form and then the new online one. Do you have a cough? ahem ahem No guv honest. I do think we are probably overthinking with a modicum of guess work involved, which we shouldn't need to do to try and work around another ill conceived P&O missive with a statement in bold "You may be denied boarding". I It is another sticking plaster not a cure. 

On a lighter note I wonder if they will let me on with a stick of rock😁