Norwegians shocking demise of quality on all fronts

[JamieLogical]

15 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

Of course it is, but they have a massive, built-in buffer with their shipping business. This allows them to make less profit (or even take a significant loss) while expanding their cruise business. That is a luxury other cruise lines do not have.

 

Also, MSC has minimal debt compared to the huge debt load other cruise lines have. While cruise lines were gasping for air and bleeding money during the pandemic, MSC was sucking in money hand over fist in their shipping business.

 

Jamie's comparison sounds logical, unfortunately, the facts get in the way.

 

 

So, the post I responded to specifically pointed to inflation as the driving factor in the changes to NCL. Last time I checked, MSC is still a business and businesses are in the business of making money. I imagine that inflationary factors have forced them to make some changes within their company to cushion customers from the impacts of inflation. There was no mention of debt load in the post I responded to. I do imagine that debt load puts additional pressure on NCL to cut costs, but that was not the issue I was addressing in my post.

[Wayward Son]

29 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

So, the post I responded to specifically pointed to inflation as the driving factor in the changes to NCL. Last time I checked, MSC is still a business and businesses are in the business of making money.

 

I get what your saying. I was simply responding to your premise (at its most basic level) that "If MSC can do it, NCL can do it". That's simply not the case, for the reasons I mentioned and probably many more.

 

And, wouldn't it be logical to assume that a company intent on expansion and becoming a major player in the industry (as MSC most certainly is) would be willing to take a significant loss in order to attract new customers, while their core business is making massive amounts of money?

 

And how would they do that? By keeping prices low, and keeping all the amenities other cruise lines are eliminating? Of course that's what they'd do.

 

 

[JamieLogical]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I get what your saying. I was simply responding to your premise (at its most basic level) that "If MSC can do it, NCL can do it". That's simply not the case, for the reasons I mentioned and probably many more.

 

And, wouldn't it be logical to assume that a company intent on expansion and becoming a major player in the industry (as MSC most certainly is) would be willing to take a significant loss in order to attract new customers, while their core business is making massive amounts of money?

 

And how would they do that? By keeping prices low, and keeping all the amenities other cruise lines are eliminating? Of course that's what they'd do.

 

 

 

Well, unfortunately for NCL, any sympathy I might have over their financial situation isn't enough to get me to throw extra money at them. It's a cruise line, not a charity. If MSC can give me a superior product at a lower price, I am going to book with them!

[ready2cruzagain]

51 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Well, unfortunately for NCL, any sympathy I might have over their financial situation isn't enough to get me to throw extra money at them. It's a cruise line, not a charity. If MSC can give me a superior product at a lower price, I am going to book with them!

I agree and after our 22 days on NCL in December we are looking to go back to MSC. I can't wait to get back to MSC. We have sailed 14 cruises with them and love them. I was not happy with NCL's MDR menus this past January and not happy now that Cagney's has changed. Love MSC's menus, the twice a day cabin steward service, the bottled water in the drink package, etc.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Well, unfortunately for NCL, any sympathy I might have over their financial situation isn't enough to get me to throw extra money at them. It's a cruise line, not a charity. If MSC can give me a superior product at a lower price, I am going to book with them!

 

Can't argue with that. I'm trying Holland America in August. Certainly not for lower cost, but for better food and service. We'll see.

 

[OshByGosh]

On 3/13/2024 at 8:36 AM, bkrickles1 said:

Lastly, if I was new to NCL or new to cruising and came across this thread, it might deter me from even looking into NCL as an option. It's a scary title and I think a bit unfair.

Took my first cruise in 1999. Sailed many times since then mainly on RC. Tried to book a cruise on NCL with an attractive itinerary on an old ship. After NCL bludgeoned the itinerary and completely absent customer service response following the change, wish I would have read these threads prior to booking to be deterred. I have wondered how many people defending NCL's cost cutting measures in these threads are NCL shareholders?

[Capitan Obvious]

1 hour ago, OshByGosh said:

I have wondered how many people defending NCL's cost cutting measures in these threads are NCL shareholders?

 

Well, that makes perfect sense.

 

Of couse, it also HAS to be true that people attacking NCL are the shareholders of their competition, correct? Why else would someone spend time on a forum dedicated to a business that they don't like?

[Yesimapirate]

1 hour ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

Well, that makes perfect sense.

 

Of couse, it also HAS to be true that people attacking NCL are the shareholders of their competition, correct? Why else would someone spend time on a forum dedicated to a business that they don't like?

Ironically,  you missed the obvious  

 

We were NCL fans.  We had very good experiences on NCL in the past.  We are not fans of the changes, decrease in service and what we feel to be poor management decisions.   We're hoping they reverse them so we can enjoy NCL vacations again. 

 

And I happen to be an NCL shareholder and don't own a penny worth of their competition. 

[JamieLogical]

8 minutes ago, Yesimapirate said:

Ironically,  you missed the obvious  

 

We were NCL fans.  We had very good experiences on NCL in the past.  We are not fans of the changes, decrease in service and what we feel to be poor management decisions.   We're hoping they reverse them so we can enjoy NCL vacations again. 

 

And I happen to be an NCL shareholder and don't own a penny worth of their competition. 

 

Exactly. I loved NCL. My first ever cruise was with them back in 2018 and that is when I fell in love with cruising. They will always hold a special place in my heart. If I could still get the same product that NCL sold back then, I would still be cruising with them, despite the higher prices. The last two times I sailed on NCL the decline in quality was depressing and I have only read about further reductions since then. I originally posted to this thread back when I was considering another NCL sailing for May, but was ultimately deterred by all the reviews of further reductions in quality and service (plus the high price). I ended up giving Princess a second chance instead, after having been on my worst ever cruise on Princess over Christmas and New Year's of 2022/2023. I am glad I gave Princess another chance, though there are still many things to dislike about the line. I still think I would choose Princess over NCL at this point for a similar price and itinerary. NCL has just eliminated so many things I love about cruising. I still own my NCL stock in the hopes of getting to use the shareholder's benefit again someday, in the distant future, when NCL has hopefully turned things around.

[Capitan Obvious]

24 minutes ago, Yesimapirate said:

Ironically,  you missed the obvious  

 

We were NCL fans.  We had very good experiences on NCL in the past.  We are not fans of the changes, decrease in service and what we feel to be poor management decisions.   We're hoping they reverse them so we can enjoy NCL vacations again. 

 

And I happen to be an NCL shareholder and don't own a penny worth of their competition. 

 

Reread the post, I did not make the stockholder claim, I was responding to it by pointing out the fallacy of the logic. Obviously, you should be addressing the person who made the claim. 

 

Ironic, huh?

[PATRLR]

 

On 6/12/2024 at 10:42 AM, RocketMan275 said:

Almost all of these complaints can be traced to a single cause.

Inflation, which is also beyond NCL control.

 

23 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

No, the computers don't 'come up with the prices' in a vaccum.  The computers are only responding to the price increases for those things necessary to operating a cruise line. When the prices for fuel oil, food, etc., increase due to inflation, the computers must take that into account.  Don't blame the 'bean counters' or the business managers who must continue to make a profit.  Blame the causes of the inflation.

If NCL is increasing their prices in response to their increasing costs, why is the quality going down?  Sorry, "inflation" is not the reason NCL's quality is down.  The reason is the corporation wants/needs to make more money. It's that simple.

During the recent period of high inflation (early 2021 through early 2023) corporations were making record profits - I have a hard time blaming anyone but the corporations.  In NCL's case, they had to (and continue to have to) increase their profits to pay down the staggering debt from being out of business during Covid.  Inflation isn't the reason for quality cuts, increasing profits is the reason (and their earnings calls have essentially told us that).

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, PATRLR said:

 

 

If NCL is increasing their prices in response to their increasing costs, why is the quality going down?  Sorry, "inflation" is not the reason NCL's quality is down.  The reason is the corporation wants/needs to make more money. It's that simple.

During the recent period of high inflation (early 2021 through early 2023) corporations were making record profits - I have a hard time blaming anyone but the corporations.  In NCL's case, they had to (and continue to have to) increase their profits to pay down the staggering debt from being out of business during Covid.  Inflation isn't the reason for quality cuts, increasing profits is the reason (and their earnings calls have essentially told us that).

It's not an either or thing. 

NCL can increase prices in response to increased costs. 

NCL can reduce quality in response to increased costs.

NCL can do both in response to increased costs.

BTW, do you believe corporations should operate as non-profits?

FWIW, without profit, there would be no new ships. 

Edited June 13 by RocketMan275

[PATRLR]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

BTW, do you believe corporations should operate as non-profits?

Of course not.  I shouldn't even dignify this ridiculous strawman (you're better than that), but, I think it's important to point out the distinction between "profits" and "record breaking profits", especially during a time of high inflation.
 

[CruisingSince1982]

On 6/12/2024 at 12:24 PM, JamieLogical said:

 

MSC has managed to keep prices low, still do evening turn down service, still do continental room service breakfast for Fantastica and above, still provide late-night snack in their buffets, keep the cost of a shot of Bailey's under the threshold of their included drinks package, and still serve hash brown hockey pucks in the buffet at breakfast. Theoretically inflation is applying to them as well...

This is going to be our next "try". We love NCL, but the cutbacks are real and ... tiring. I refuse to keep paying the prices that we pay, especially for the Haven, to have more and more cutbacks. It's a shame because we really do love the cruise line. 

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, PATRLR said:

Of course not.  I shouldn't even dignify this ridiculous strawman (you're better than that), but, I think it's important to point out the distinction between "profits" and "record breaking profits", especially during a time of high inflation.
 

 

The complaints about increased fares and lowered quality are understandable given the fact that most are squeezed by high inflation.  NCL isn't the cause of high inflation and is trying to deal with that inflation just like everyone else. 

If corporations should forgo price increases to deal with inflation, the perhaps people should forgo wage increases in order to deal with inflation.  

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, CruisingSince1982 said:

This is going to be our next "try". We love NCL, but the cutbacks are real and ... tiring. I refuse to keep paying the prices that we pay, especially for the Haven, to have more and more cutbacks. It's a shame because we really do love the cruise line. 

Visi some other cruise line forums,

All cruise lines are cutting back and increasing prices.

[JamieLogical]

31 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Visi some other cruise line forums,

All cruise lines are cutting back and increasing prices.

 

Not MSC... What has MSC cut in the past year or two? The only thing I can think of is that you now have to pay $5 if you want an additional entree at dinner in the MDR on US itineraries only.

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Not MSC... What has MSC cut in the past year or two? The only thing I can think of is that you now have to pay $5 if you want an additional entree at dinner in the MDR on US itineraries only.

Several posters have pointed out that MSC has unique advantages that preclude using MSC has a model for other cruise lines.

[PATRLR]

 

38 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Visi some other cruise line forums,

All cruise lines are cutting back and increasing prices.

True, but it seems like NCL's are quite a bit more extensive.  

As we are actively taking our business elsewhere, I do spend a lot of time on other forums.  Princess being our next to try (under a month away now, Yeay!) I've been on their forums a lot lately and I don't see anywhere near the discussion of cutbacks that I see here.  

 

Edited June 13 by PATRLR

[JamieLogical]

5 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Several posters have pointed out that MSC has unique advantages that preclude using MSC has a model for other cruise lines.

 

You literally said "All cruise lines"... MSC is still a cruise line, even if they are privately held instead of publicly traded.

[laudergayle]

2 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

 

True, but it seems like NCL's are quite a bit more extensive.  

As we are actively taking our business elsewhere, I do spend a lot of time on other forums.  Princess being our next to try (under a month away now, Yeay!) I've been on their forums a lot lately and I don't see anywhere near the discussion of cutbacks that I see here.  

 

I, too, have been perusing Princess and MSC boards since we have upcoming cruises on both, I’ve also been looking at the menus for bar and specialty dining.  Princess appears to have robust menus in their seafood and steak restaurants. And I know that MSC has a great selection in their buffets and MDR menus are good, too.

[JamieLogical]

1 hour ago, laudergayle said:

I, too, have been perusing Princess and MSC boards since we have upcoming cruises on both, I’ve also been looking at the menus for bar and specialty dining.  Princess appears to have robust menus in their seafood and steak restaurants. And I know that MSC has a great selection in their buffets and MDR menus are good, too.

 

I think you will like both, depending on the ship and itinerary. Some of Princess' ships are on the old side and are in need of some maintenance and refurbishment. Some of MSC's ships are on the small side, though their older ships seem to be well-maintained. I will be doing my third Princess sailing in August. The first (as I mentioned previously) was on the Emerald Princess in 2022/2023 over the Holidays and it was TERRIBLE. I gave them a second chance in May on one of the newer ships and we did not encounter many of the issues we had on the Emerald sailing, though there are still some things I find frustrating about Princess. MSC is definitely my go-to line now and I am looking forward to sailings in October and January on the Meraviglia. I am convinced that MSC is the best value for your money right now and they still offer many of the services I had come to miss on NCL. Really, the only reason I ended up on Princess again was a casino offer on my May and August sailings that made the pricing competitive.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, PATRLR said:

 

True, but it seems like NCL's are quite a bit more extensive.  

As we are actively taking our business elsewhere, I do spend a lot of time on other forums.  Princess being our next to try (under a month away now, Yeay!) I've been on their forums a lot lately and I don't see anywhere near the discussion of cutbacks that I see here.  

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/search/?q=cutbacks&quick=1

[ChiefMateJRK]

8 hours ago, OshByGosh said:

I have wondered how many people defending NCL's cost cutting measures in these threads are NCL shareholders?

I'm sure many are.  I am.  But owning those lousy 100 shares of NCLH makes me in no way concerned about NCL's P/L.  I do it only for the OBC and couldn't care less about cost cutting to increase profits.

[julig22]

18 minutes ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

I'm sure many are.  I am.  But owning those lousy 100 shares of NCLH makes me in no way concerned about NCL's P/L.  I do it only for the OBC and couldn't care less about cost cutting to increase profits.

Same here. NCL doesn't give dividends, I bought it for OBC. Maybe someday if I have reason to sell, I'll care....but until then, owning stock doesn't make me a NCL defender/cheerleader.