Is this discrimination

[Megabear2]

12 minutes ago, Gettingwarmer said:

@JollyMia Did you book direct or through a travel agent. If so have you ascertained that they completed the form mentioning that you would be having a wheelchair on board. 

JollyMia has had a post removed along with my reply - he mentioned his agent's name unfortunately, although I did not so I have no idea why my reply went which is a bit frustrating.

 

He did book through a travel agent, has had 3 cruises with P&O booked through the same agent in the past two years.  They apparently took his details and he filled in the form a day or two after booking and then booked his wheelchair with Mobility at Sea.  

 

 

[Gettingwarmer]

13 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

JollyMia has had a post removed along with my reply - he mentioned his agent's name unfortunately, although I did not so I have no idea why my reply went which is a bit frustrating.

 

He did book through a travel agent, has had 3 cruises with P&O booked through the same agent in the past two years.  They apparently took his details and he filled in the form a day or two after booking and then booked his wheelchair with Mobility at Sea.  

 

 

Yes I saw it. I know the OP has come back and has not deserted us. Just waiting for them reply again. 

Edited May 14 by Gettingwarmer

[Gettingwarmer]

If neither @JollyMia nor their travel agent mentioned bringing a wheelchair then the first P&O would.have known about it was when Mobility at Sea advised them that someone in the cabin had requested a wheelchair to be delivered to the cabin. Hence the difficulty. 

Edited May 14 by Gettingwarmer

[terrierjohn]

13 hours ago, molecrochip said:

I personally don’t agree their interpretation.

We are currently on Princess and if every wheelchair user needed an evacuation chair, then they would need a barge to tow them all and house the extra accommodation for the increase in staff. Princess have no mention of  evacuation chairs in their medical questionnaire, which since both are part of Carnival is somewhat concerning. 

[terrierjohn]

3 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

I sympathise greatly with you, but did those health issues not cause pause for thought when you read the assistance requirements that you have to agree to when booking (with my bolding)?

 

"In the unlikely event of an emergency, it is important we have sufficient and specific support for guests who require additional assistance, and we have advance notice of this. Please read the following declaration of assistance needs for your voyage, even if you are travelling with someone who can support you. Guests who are unable to get to their assembly stations independently (which could involve several flights of stairs as lifts will not be available) due to a disability, health, or mental capacity must be pre-registered for assistance to ensure we have sufficient support. Failure to provide this could result in being denied boarding at your own expense. If you do require assistance using the below statements, please advise us of the level of assistance required. Someone to guide and steady me on the stairs (121 assistance) For anyone bringing a mobility aid this is a recommended minimum requirement. I'm unable to use stairs (emergency evacuation chair) For anyone who is a full /part time wheelchair or mobility scooter user this is a mandatory requirement."

 

If your balance is poor and you can only manage short distances then could you manage several flights of stairs independently without assistance from anyone, including anyone you are travelling with?

 

Plus keeping in mind that this might be using the crew evacuation stairs in sub-optimal conditions if it is an emergency that requires everyone off the ship and into the lifeboats.

 

 

Denying boarding to someone who didn't notify that they needed assistance and those facilities are full is sensible, even if it might not appear so at the time to the individual concerned.

 

However refusing to rent someone a wheelchair who needs one because the evacuation facilities are full is illogical as that is the worst of both worlds - a passenger that doesn't have a wheelchair they need and a passenger cannot evacuate because there are no facilities.

 

If P&O's policy is that if an individual wants to rent (or bring) a wheelchair then because of that the individual has demonstrated from that fact that they will need assistance in an emergency whatever they say, then either they should be added to that evacuation list or if they didn't notify and those facilities are full then they should be denied boarding, not that P&O won't rent them a wheelchair!

Bearing in mind that the new on line questionnaire was not introduced until very recently, and bookings could have been made 2-3 years before sailing, it is, IMO, incumbent on P&O to advise all potential wheelchair users about this change. In my case only through being a CC user did I know to query this with P&O, I never received any thing from them indicating that I needed to update the medical questionnaire.

[Selbourne]

30 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

JollyMia has had a post removed along with my reply - he mentioned his agent's name unfortunately, although I did not so I have no idea why my reply went which is a bit frustrating.

 

He did book through a travel agent, has had 3 cruises with P&O booked through the same agent in the past two years.  They apparently took his details and he filled in the form a day or two after booking and then booked his wheelchair with Mobility at Sea.  

 

 

My last post was removed as well, possibly because I replied to the post that mentioned the TA. 
 

To repeat my point, there is one critical question that I don’t believe has been answered. When the OP completed the onboard needs questionnaire immediately after booking, did they state at that time that they would be bringing a wheelchair and state the dimensions (as is required)? If they did, then the fault lies with P&O. If the passenger was deemed to need an evacuation chair but no more were available, the booking should have been cancelled at that stage.
 

Conversely, if the OP did not state on the Onboard Needs Questionnaire that they were bringing a wheelchair, or somehow assumed that by informing their TA or by booking one through Mobility at Sea that they would be covered, then P&O would deem that the fault lies with the customer for not declaring the wheelchair on the Onboard Needs Questionnaire. It sounds pedantic, but this seems to sum up all the issues that I have read here and elsewhere when people have run into problems. 

 

One of the many issues that P&O (and other Carnival brands) need to resolve is that they don’t always acknowledge receipt of the Onboard Needs Questionnaire and that issues flagged have been noted. This leaves the customer with at best a nagging doubt that they might run into difficulties, or at worst being refused embarkation at the terminal.

[Gettingwarmer]

16 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

In my case only through being a CC user did I know to query this with P&O, I never received any thing from them indicating that I needed to update the medical questionnaire.

We received an email in respect of each of our outstanding cruises when this new procedure was started. We book direct. 

[Windsurfboy]

I remember about 6 months ago or so, getting an email from P&O asking us if anything had changed and telling us of our duty to keep them informed of any changes.  We had booked direct nearly 2 years ago , and said then no assistance required.

 

So I presume everyone booked directly got an email. 

 

Perhaps the problem lies in the absurdity that if you book through a TA , Carnival (p&O and cunard) never email you directly but channel everything though TA. I  don't know if it is TAs or cruise line that insists on this.

[Megabear2]

23 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Bearing in mind that the new on line questionnaire was not introduced until very recently, and bookings could have been made 2-3 years before sailing, it is, IMO, incumbent on P&O to advise all potential wheelchair users about this change. In my case only through being a CC user did I know to query this with P&O, I never received any thing from them indicating that I needed to update the medical questionnaire.

I did not receive any email as I was one of the first to encounter the declaring a walking stick - I started a thread on the issue at the time and there was a great deal of discussion and a few people then contacted P&O to have it confirmed this was now the situation.  That was back mid 2023, I can't recall the exact month but definitely after June 2023 as I booked my next cruise for January 2024 whilst onboard Arvia.  That booking was the first time I had been asked about "mobility aids" and subsequently on return I called P&O who confirmed if I did not declare it I would be at risk of denied boarding.  Subsequently every cruise I have booked since with P&O and Cunard has involved the question about mobility aids at the time of booking.  However of my four bookings where my husband - who is the walking stick user - is named, I have different scenarios of the assistance he requires.  As instructed I complete the mobility form the moment the cruise personaliser opens and I am at a loss as to why there is variation in the level of assistance they believe we will need. 

 

Further to Selbourne's comment about confirmations I do have two of these after submitting the form, one from P&O and one from Cunard.  The other two have gone into the ether however!

[9265359]

2 hours ago, nosapphire said:

re-reading the post, the OP seems to say that they do not NEED a wheelchair to move around the ship, but it makes their life more comfortable.

The OP has also said that they would be able to make their own independent way to the muster station in the event of an emergency, so do not require an evacuation chair.

 

I am not sure about that.

 

16 hours ago, JollyMia said:

I can walk, not great and my balance is very poor but I can manage over short distances.

 

Do you really think that indicates someone who could get to a muster station unaided when there is an actual need to get to the muster station?

 

Depending where they are on the ship when they need to go there it could mean climbing or descending many flights of stairs, and in circumstances when the muster station is actually needed and everyone is abandoning ship then climbing or descending those flights of stairs is likely to be in rather sub-optimal conditions.

 

And that is why it indicates something seriously wrong, or certainly a serious disconnect between the teams, because if the P&O policy is that if you need a wheelchair for whatever reason even if that reason is just for comfort but that means you need an evacuation chair because P&O don't believe you will be up to evacuating independently, then the response from P&O to someone wanting to rent a chair when the evacuation spaces are full should not be "sorry we won't rent you a chair because the evacuation spaces are full" it should have been "sorry we won't rent you a chair because you won't need one as we will not let you board because the evacuation spaces are full".

[nosapphire]

It's a difficult/confusing situation all round. Difficult for the passenger who may not be fully mobile (applies to a lot of us) but is certain that they can reach a muster station unaided in the event of evacuation.

Very difficult for the cruise line, who have to decide how many passengers will need help in an emergency (just think of the headlines if there was an emergency and they had so many passengers needing assistance they could not get them off in time). 

I agree that it does seem reasonable for a line to think that if a passenger intends to use a wheelchair on board, then they may need emergency assistance.

As many others have already said, it really comes down to when P&O knew that a passenger was intending to have a wheelchair on board, and, if they knew at/near the time of booking why they have taken so long to react.

 

[david63]

51 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Princess have no mention of  evacuation chairs in their medical questionnaire, which since both are part of Carnival is somewhat concerning.

That is possibly due to the disconnect over such things between US law and UK law.

 

29 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

One of the many issues that P&O (and other Carnival brands) need to resolve is that they don’t always acknowledge receipt of the Onboard Needs Questionnaire and that issues flagged have been noted. This leaves the customer with at best a nagging doubt that they might run into difficulties, or at worst being refused embarkation at the terminal.

In any well run organisation the status of the questionnaire would be in the cruise personaliser and updated as and when.

 

11 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

Do you really think that indicates someone who could get to a muster station unaided when there is an actual need to get to the muster station?

And therein lies another problem. How will the "helper" know where to find the passenger?

[Megabear2]

14 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

Depending where they are on the ship when they need to go there it could mean climbing or descending many flights of stairs, and in circumstances when the muster station is actually needed and everyone is abandoning ship then climbing or descending those flights of stairs is likely to be in rather sub-optimal conditions.

 

Interesting take on things.  If we are honest in a total emergency any passenger is going to be a risk, regardless of whether they are considered able bodied or not, dependent on their actual fitness levels, how they handle stress so they don't panic and cause a stampede etc.  Certainly some of the rather overweight people I have seen on cruises who puff and blow their way around the ships are quite likely to be a hinderance on stairs and I count myself amongst them! Then we have those who may have imbibed heavily, those who are groups with very young children, the self entitled etc etc etc

 

A modicum of commonsense is needed regarding who will need assistance.  Those marked for two man assistance probably have a much better worked out plan for their survival than those who are going to be each man to his own!

Edited May 14 by Megabear2

[9265359]

3 minutes ago, david63 said:

And therein lies another problem. How will the "helper" know where to find the passenger?

 

Most emergencies are not that sudden and people are sent to their cabins to wait instructions.

 

If it is an emergency along the lines of the MS Estonia then even able bodied will need the luck of the gods to survive.

[nosapphire]

57 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

Most emergencies are not that sudden and people are sent to their cabins to wait instructions

And what's the betting that crew time will be taken up convincing the minority cohort that this is an order, not a suggestion, so no, you cannot stay to watch the action.

[Lee Jones Jnr]

3 minutes ago, nosapphire said:

And what's the betting that crew time will be taken up convincing the minority cohort that this is an order, not a suggestion, so no, you cannot stay to watch the action.

Fq me, its almost impossible to get a lot of people to wash their hands and use sanitiser

[nosapphire]

Although - in a real emergency, people can often surprise themselves with how much ability they suddenly discover to get themselves out of trouble. Not because they don't have genuine problems, just because adrenaline can sometimes override everything else.

Now - hand washing and sanitiser. Infringements of people's right to spread germs, that is.🤢

[terrierjohn]

2 hours ago, nosapphire said:

It's a difficult/confusing situation all round. Difficult for the passenger who may not be fully mobile (applies to a lot of us) but is certain that they can reach a muster station unaided in the event of evacuation.

Very difficult for the cruise line, who have to decide how many passengers will need help in an emergency (just think of the headlines if there was an emergency and they had so many passengers needing assistance they could not get them off in time). 

I agree that it does seem reasonable for a line to think that if a passenger intends to use a wheelchair on board, then they may need emergency assistance.

As many others have already said, it really comes down to when P&O knew that a passenger was intending to have a wheelchair on board, and, if they knew at/near the time of booking why they have taken so long to react.

 

But after watching many passengers currently on Sky Princess who use a rollater to move around the ship, many of whom don't look capable of using stairs in an emergency, then there could well be hundreds who will need help using stairs, and many of these may in fact need to use an evacuation chair.

[JollyMia]

Just a quick update, I did complete the questionnaire when I booked January, but never heard back from P&O (I have done this on 2 previous cruise). I then resubmitted the questionnaire in April at my wife’s request because we had received no confirmation of any kind.

[Gettingwarmer]

31 minutes ago, JollyMia said:

Just a quick update, I did complete the questionnaire when I booked January, but never heard back from P&O (I have done this on 2 previous cruise). I then resubmitted the questionnaire in April at my wife’s request because we had received no confirmation of any kind.

And you confirm that you mentioned you would be having a wheelchair both times?

Just to confirm P&O’s error. 

Edited May 14 by Gettingwarmer

[solentsam]

20 hours ago, JollyMia said:

I never requested the need for an evacuation chair. In the event of an evacuation I would be able to make my way to the muster station, but having a wheelchair for use on and around the ship would make life so much easier.

I think this the crux of the matter you said  "I never requested the need for an evacuation chair." so i think now that mobility at sea have told p&o what they will bringing on board for you has highlighted the problem that there is on enough evac chairs to accommodate you. Thats' my take on it sorry. Hope you  can sort it out.

Edited May 14 by solentsam

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, solentsam said:

I think this the crux of the matter you said  "I never requested the need for an evacuation chair." so i think now that mobility at sea have told p&o what they will bringing on board for you has highlighted the problem that there is on enough evac chairs to accommodate you. Thats' my take on it sorry. Hope you  can sort it out.

I think that may be jumping the gun.  The OP has returned with further information since then, and has stated that the necessary form has been completed twice, the first time without any acknowledgment.  He has been asked if the forms submitted mention the wheelchair requirement.  My guess is it did in light of the fact he did the follow up in April at his wife's behest as P&O had not acknowledged the one provided in January and as a result of that second form they have told him no wheelchair slot.  He stated he booked his wheelchair a few days after submitting his January form and if it was a case of Mobility notifying P&O he has requested it for Cabin X they would have picked it up earlier I would imagine and not now.

 

We shall wait to hear if my suspicion is correct!

Edited May 14 by Megabear2

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, JollyMia said:

Just a quick update, I did complete the questionnaire when I booked January, but never heard back from P&O (I have done this on 2 previous cruise). I then resubmitted the questionnaire in April at my wife’s request because we had received no confirmation of any kind.

Thanks for the info JollyMia.  As a matter of interest do you have a screenshot, saved copy or print of the form you submitted in January?  Obviously if you do have and it shows clearly that you wish to have a wheelchair onboard it will be your proof that P&O have made the error rather than you,

[Selbourne]

1 hour ago, Gettingwarmer said:

And you confirm that you mentioned you would be having a wheelchair both times?

Just to confirm P&O’s error. 

I’ve asked the same question (twice) and am still not 100% sure that the OP specifically stated on the very first Onboards Needs Questionnaire submitted immediately after booking that they intended to bring a wheelchair. This is the absolute crux of the issue. If they did then P&O is at fault. If they didn’t (or relied on the TA, or Mobility at Sea, to do so - or didn’t mention the wheelchair until the second submission in April) then, unfortunately, the fault is the passengers. Jury is out for me until that is specifically answered!

[Megabear2]

26 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

I’ve asked the same question (twice) and am still not 100% sure that the OP specifically stated on the very first Onboards Needs Questionnaire submitted immediately after booking that they intended to bring a wheelchair. This is the absolute crux of the issue. If they did then P&O is at fault. If they didn’t (or relied on the TA, or Mobility at Sea, to do so - or didn’t mention the wheelchair until the second submission in April) then, unfortunately, the fault is the passengers. Jury is out for me until that is specifically answered!

No doubt he will be back soon. Meantime speculating on his situation seems futile and we should wait to see what he says in his next reply.