Dumbing Down & Dressing Down: The New Cunard?

[Tattycoram]

22 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

Dorothy Parker said, "If you haven't anything nice to say about anyone, come sit by me."

It does sound Parkerish, but I've always heard it was said by Alice Roosevelt Longworth.

[3rdGenCunarder]

4 minutes ago, Tattycoram said:

It does sound Parkerish, but I've always heard it was said by Alice Roosevelt Longworth.

 

I think there are several versions attributed to different sources, including Longworth. My Fashion Police friend always found wonderful birthday cards and she sent me one with that quote, attributed to Parker. 

[exlondoner]

ARL, whom I’ve never previously come across sounds rather fun. She apparently told Senator McCoarthy, who said he was going to call her Alice, that, while the truckman, the trashman, and the policeman on her block could call her Alice, he might not. 🙂

[Brummel]

3 hours ago, Tattycoram said:

About the lectures (which we're looking forward to), someone above wrote they appreciate lectures by retired astronauts "Rather that than a lecture on clothes, unless it was a history lecture of clothing through the ages"

 

If Cunard reads this, I'm putting my vote in for Amber Butchart, a fashion historian who has given wonderful documentaries on everything from the Jazz Age to the Black Prince's tabard.  She is also a forensic fashion consultant (I title I think I just made up) for the police in murder inquiries.

Prior to my last voyage on the QE, I suggested to Cunard several ways they could promote, in entertaining ways, their dress codes and why clothing standards are so important. For instance, some lecture topics:

 

• Dress Codes: Opression or Liberation?
• A History of Sumptuary Laws, or When Wearing Velvet Could Get You Flogged
• Beau and George: The Two Men Who Changed Forever the Way Men Dress
• The Rules of Black Tie (and How to Break Them)
• The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of: Textiles from Nature and Laboratory.
• Art You Hang on Yourself, or How I Justify Spending a Fortune on One Suit.

 

Activities:

Sartorial Trivia

Sample Question:

     Why do we call trousers a pair of pants but not a shirt a pair of sleeves?

Men's Fashion Runway, where male passengers get to strut their sartorial stuff

The Queens Dandies: a Cunard sponsored club of men who cherish classic men's attire and enthusiastically support the dress code.

 

I was actually going to do some informal lectures myself on the QE in the ConneXions Rooms through the auspices of Cunard until I realized the entertainment staff aboard had no interest and Cunard had given up enforcing its own dress code and coats were no longer required for men in the MDR for dinner.

 

I knew I was fighting a rearguard action against the cargo shorts and sweatpants army, but why go into battle when the Top Command has already surrendered?

     

 

[Tattycoram]

Dear Brummel--Given your nom de Cunard, I'm not surprised!  A favorite history-of-fashion book of mine--a slim volume which you might already know--is The Gentleman's Suit by the redoubtable Hardy Amies.

[exlondoner]

4 minutes ago, Brummel said:

Prior to my last voyage on the QE, I suggested to Cunard several ways they could promote, in entertaining ways, their dress codes and why clothing standards are so important. For instance, some lecture topics:

 

• Dress Codes: Opression or Liberation?
• A History of Sumptuary Laws, or When Wearing Velvet Could Get You Flogged
• Beau and George: The Two Men Who Changed Forever the Way Men Dress
• The Rules of Black Tie (and How to Break Them)
• The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of: Textiles from Nature and Laboratory.
• Art You Hang on Yourself, or How I Justify Spending a Fortune on One Suit.

 

Activities:

Sartorial Trivia

Sample Question:

     Why do we call trousers a pair of pants but not a shirt a pair of sleeves?

Men's Fashion Runway, where male passengers get to strut their sartorial stuff

The Queens Dandies: a Cunard sponsored club of men who cherish classic men's attire and enthusiastically support the dress code.

 

I was actually going to do some informal lectures myself on the QE in the ConneXions Rooms through the auspices of Cunard until I realized the entertainment staff aboard had no interest and Cunard had given up enforcing its own dress code and coats were no longer required for men in the MDR for dinner.

 

I knew I was fighting a rearguard action against the cargo shorts and sweatpants army, but why go into battle when the Top Command has already surrendered?

     

 

All I can say it that you must travel on completely different cruises from me.

[Tattycoram]

When I was growing up, we were put in dresses of "Alice Blue."  I had always thought it was from Alice (Liddell) in Wonderland, but my father told me it was from Alice Roosevelt, maybe particularly from her time in the White House.  There was even a popular song about her!

[Victoria2]

36 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

All I can say it that you must travel on completely different cruises from me.

and me.

 

[Brummel]

30 minutes ago, Tattycoram said:

Dear Brummel--Given your nom de Cunard, I'm not surprised!  A favorite history-of-fashion book of mine--a slim volume which you might already know--is The Gentleman's Suit by the redoubtable Hardy Amies.

Indeed I do! Wonderful tome. My favorite is The Suit: A Machiavellian Approach to Men's Style by Nicholas Antongiavanni. I would also recommend Bespoke: Savile Row Ripped and Smoothed by my London tailor Richard Anderson. It's an account of his apprenticeship at Huntsman on Savile Row, but you will learn as much about personal integrity as sewing together cloth.

[Host Hattie]

I believe we've had a previous report this cruise 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brummel]

19 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

and me.

 

As mentioned, other than Cunard I have voyaged on Holland and Princess and enjoyed them very much - the new Rotterdam is fabulous! But Cunard, especially the QM2, was special; alas, the decline in the dress codes makes it not so much.

 

Sadly, to quote the Wisest Thing Ever Said:

 

This too shall pass

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 05:17 PM by Brummel
grammar

[Brummel]

9 minutes ago, Host Hattie said:

I believe we've had a previous report this cruise 

 

 

 

 

 

We're not supposed to reference/paraphrase earlier posts on different threads?

[Tattycoram]

24 minutes ago, Brummel said:

My favorite is The Suit: A Machiavellian Approach to Men's Style by Nicholas Antongiavanni. I would also recommend Bespoke: Savile Row Ripped and Smoothed by my London tailor Richard Anderson. It's an account of his apprenticeship at Huntsman on Savile Row, but you will learn as much about personal integrity as sewing together cloth.

Thanks so much for the Christmas present ideas for my husband!  (His New York tailor used to be a London tailor but married an American and settled, profitably I'm led to believe, over here.)

 

PS:  I just remembered another slim Brummell-related book, which includes allusions to Jasper Cocker, I believe:  Who Is a Dandy? by George Walden.  It reprints some French essay in it, I think.  There's also Ellen Moers' book, but that's quite academic.

Edited Sunday at 05:26 PM by Tattycoram

[Victoria2]

47 minutes ago, Brummel said:

As mentioned, other than Cunard I have voyaged on Holland and Princess and enjoyed them very much - the new Rotterdam is fabulous! But Cunard, especially the QM2, was special; alas, the decline in the dress codes makes it not so much.

 

Sadly, to quote the Wisest Thing Ever Said:

 

This too shall pass

 

 

 

 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your posts. I have read many of them over the past two years and quite frankly, I am amazed you continue to sail with Cunard.

 

You do so remind me of folk who rail against the line, then go and book a couple more cruises.

[Millieloulou]

You’s pays your moneys and you make your choice!

[Brummel]

15 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your posts. I have read many of them over the past two years and quite frankly, I am amazed you continue to sail with Cunard.

 

You do so remind me of folk who rail against the line, then go and book a couple more cruises.

Hope springs eternal. A friend was on the QM2 last July and he reported it being the best crossing ever. Says the Greatest Ship in the World is at least trying to maintain the Cunard standards and traditions.

 

So I am booked on the majestic lady for the August 23rd NYC to Southampton crossing, continuing on the twelve-day British Isles voyage, then a few days in London for theatre, visiting friends and my tailors (yes, I know how pretentious that sounds, "my - plural- tailors") before the return crossing September 15th.

 

This will give me 26 nights, in spitting distance to Diamond WC status.

 

I'll see if I care to spit further.

 

 

[rj1227]

I am a relative outsider in this debate. I have cruised only three times--only once with Cunard on a TA crossing, though I do have another cruise with Cunard booked (though the sole reason is the literary festival on the QM2 in November).

  

On my TA crossing last December, I did not see violations of the Cunard dress code. Personally, I would like to see the Cunard dress code relaxed a tad on the nonformal nights. On my cruises years ago on Oceania and Azamara, I certainly did not see a "dumbing down" or passengers poorly dressed. However, tell me what the rules are, and I will play by the rules. 

 

But I am struck by the lament in the original post that there were only five formal nights on a 35-day West Indies cruise. First, given the nature of the cruise--the West Indies rather than a TA crossing or European cruise--I can understand Cunard opting for a lesser number of formal nights than it might otherwise. People cruise the Caribbean and the West Indies to enjoy the warmer weather and to relax--in formality, it seems the antithesis of TA crossing. 

 

Second, it seems that some who have sailed Cunard for years view any hint of change or any change in the dressing code, however slight, as a dangerous assault on the essence of the Cunard experience. I have seen forum threads on dress codes that go on for pages. I would hope that the Cunard experience transcends the number of gala nights in a week. I largely agree with exlondoner (see post 152) that the Cunard experience is marked by serenity, an emphasis on things cultural, and the absence of the more raucous activities that the big cruise ships are known for. And I also agree with how he ended his post--"Why all this gloom?"

[Victoria2]

3 minutes ago, Brummel said:

Hope springs eternal. A friend was on the QM2 last July and he reported it being the best crossing ever. Says the Greatest Ship in the World is at least trying to maintain the Cunard standards and traditions.

 

So I am booked on the majestic lady for the August 23rd NYC to Southampton crossing, continuing on the twelve-day British Isles voyage, then a few days in London for theatre, visiting friends and my tailors (yes, I know how pretentious that sounds, "my - plural- tailors") before the return crossing September 15th.

 

This will give me 26 nights, in spitting distance to Diamond WC status.

 

I'll see if I care to spit further.

 

 

No. It doesn't sound pretentious unless you wish it to appear so. My husband used to do the same albeit a singular tailor and not in London. What does smack a little of pretension is your #179 post.

 

Really?

 

The average Cunard passenger [me for starters] would look at your proposed list of possible lectures and snort with laughter. 

 

We want to encourage potential newbies, not put them off!

[D&N]

9 hours ago, S1971 said:

Lifes to short to worry about how others dress for dinner.

But hopefully not that short that we can't take some amusement from them. 😀

[NE John]

A vast majority of passengers up here in Alaska, especially the young crowd, embrace the dress Gala Night themes and most pax doing pretty well on SA nights. 
Too much doom and gloom!

[2Oldpeopleinlove]

8 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

Yes, that's another problem. That's why we sailed Princess only once. Liked the ship but hated the fact that there was no quiet space except our teeny balcony. I recall seeking refuge on our balcony on a Royal Caribbean ship, too. 

NCL is horrible for noise as well. We love Cunard for many reasons. Quiet, good food (we are not terribly demanding at least niw that we’ve stop reviewing restaurant reviews), good music, no shouted “encouragement” to join in anything, no giant screens or loud bands….just really restful. But the quiet may be top of my personal list.

[Brummel]

44 minutes ago, 2Oldpeopleinlove said:

NCL is horrible for noise as well. We love Cunard for many reasons. Quiet, good food (we are not terribly demanding at least niw that we’ve stop reviewing restaurant reviews), good music, no shouted “encouragement” to join in anything, no giant screens or loud bands….just really restful. But the quiet may be top of my personal list.

Those are some of Cunard's great attractions. I told my Cunard agent if they ever put a water slide on the QM2, I'm outta there! 

 

Also, it's probably the last place on earth where I'm still the hot young thing! 😆

[2Oldpeopleinlove]

Sorry about the lack of editing. You’d never believe I was a college English teacher most of my professional life, would you? Now it’s too late to edit.

[57eric]

On 6/29/2024 at 5:38 PM, david63 said:

I think you mean Carnival's strategy for Cunard.

Also I think you may have meant Carnival and not Celebrity.

 

That theory may not be far from the truth. P&O Australia is being wound down and rebranded as Carnival and it is rumoured that Costa will be next. The question is - how long before other brands follow?

I meant Celebrity.  Are your expectations even lower?

[JT1101]

P&O Australia is a completely different animal than Cunard. Also Cunard and P&O comprise Carnival UK - a separate unit within Carnival LLC. P&O Australia is part of the main Carnival Cruise Lines unit. Costa is in its own unit also.