Carnival Corporation Orders Three Additional Ships for Carnival Cruise Line, Introducing a New Class of Ships

[aborgman]

15 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Not by all measures.

 

Yeah... 98% as much gross tonnage is the same size.

[aborgman]

15 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Royal charges more because they have to and is lucky the market will bear it. When the market collapses, they will be in trouble.

 

The market is the market. It appears Royal did a go job predicting market trends of wanting giant ugly floating amusement parks, and Carnival followed them with the Excel class.

 

When the market collapses - they're all in trouble, and whoever has the most outstanding debt is in the most trouble.

[aborgman]

15 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

I would bet the ranch that RCCL will NEVER build a 90K ship 

 

Yeah - I'm expecting these things to be at least 130K ton ships.

[Retired-N-Happy]

2 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

When the market collapses - they're all in trouble, and whoever has the most outstanding debt is in the most trouble.

With the prices that RCI is charging and getting for the Icon Class ships, do you really think the market is going to collapse?  Bookings have been stronger than pre Covid.

[aborgman]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

Pretty easy answer, at least from my viewpoint.  20 years ago, ships were not the destination. 

 

I think you can make a serious argument that ships didn't "become" the destination - Disney and Royal MADE ships the destination.

 

It was an actively driven transition, not something that just happened.

 

[aborgman]

6 minutes ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

With the prices that RCI is charging and getting for the Icon Class ships, do you really think the market is going to collapse?  Bookings have been stronger than pre Covid.

 

 

What's your time horizon?

 

6 months? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years?

[tidecat]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

Pretty easy answer, at least from my viewpoint.  20 years ago, ships were not the destination.  Carnival decided not to follow the lead (they never really ever followed RCCL by nature), RCCL was paying way more for their mega ships and the return was obviously not there for Carnival.

According to Carnival's architect at the time, Joe Farcus, had the US Dollar had not weakened against the Euro, Carnival would have built the Pinnacle class. Had Carnival gone through with it, this likely would have launched around 2008 or 2009 when Carnival Splendor and Carnival Dream entered the fleet.

[jimbo5544]

39 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Yeah - I'm expecting these things to be at least 130K ton ships.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

[jimbo5544]

9 minutes ago, tidecat said:

According to Carnival's architect at the time, Joe Farcus, had the US Dollar had not weakened against the Euro, Carnival would have built the Pinnacle class. Had Carnival gone through with it, this likely would have launched around 2008 or 2009 when Carnival Splendor and Carnival Dream entered the fleet.

Maybe that is why they dumped him.  That said, he def left his mark on the industry with Carnival.

[jimbo5544]

35 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

I think you can make a serious argument that ships didn't "become" the destination - Disney and Royal MADE ships the destination.

 

It was an actively driven transition, not something that just happened.

 

Was not really thinking of the driver, not sure it matters, but cannot disagree.

[jsglow]

These companies can do anything they want and this argument about who has the bigger      --edited--   has grown tiresome. I'll sail what I want and won't sail what I don't. It's really that simple. I 'may' give an Excel a try sometime. I can't imagine ever setting foot on a true Mega. I'll likely never sail RCCL but I'm sincerely looking forward to Holland. Same with Windstar; love their motor yachts. Oh, and I need to do another incredible Star Clipper before I get too old to do wet landings. Enjoy whatever floats your boat.

Edited July 31 by jsglow

[jimbo5544]

6 minutes ago, jsglow said:

These companies can do anything they want and this argument about who has the bigger      --edited--   has grown tiresome. I'll sail what I want and won't sail what I don't. It's really that simple. I 'may' give an Excel a try sometime. I can't imagine ever setting foot on a true Mega. I'll likely never sail RCCL but I'm sincerely looking forward to Holland. Same with Windstar; love their motor yachts. Oh, and I need to do another Star Clipper before I get too old to do wet landings. Enjoy whatever floats your boat.

All makes sense, that said ever is a long time

[jsglow]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

All makes sense, that said ever is a long time

There's only so many laps @jimbo5544 and I'm not foolish enough to think that I haven't already made my last pit stop and put on my last set of new tires.

[jimbo5544]

5 minutes ago, jsglow said:

There's only so many laps @jimbo5544 and I'm not foolish enough to think that I haven't already made my last pit stop and put on my last set of new tires.

Make the most of it

 

[dolphinsfan246]

This thread is out of control. It’s very simple why Carnival hasn’t played mega ship game until now. (I’d argue Excel class is a mega ship, which was ordered in 2015, but I digress) Carnival always has , and always will stick to a very strict price/berth ratio on their new build orders. It’s the very reason the Pinnacle project was cancelled. Everybody in Carnival Corp wanted it. It was a real design, all the blueprints were made up. Carnival would have made the first 200K+ move over 20 years ago BUT that euro conversion rate came out, and price was not right. It was then immediately cancelled by Micky, no questions asked. 
 

Fast forward to today. Why are they now getting 230,000 ton ships? Because the price is right. BUT what do we have to sacrifice in order to get it? Sharing with almost 8,000 fellow passengers. It’s the only way to get that price/berth ratio in the sweet spot that Carnival sticks to. It’s how they keep their fares lower. They know they compete on price, and blue cards are their #1 priority. What attracts more blue cards than a good deal? 

 

Bottom line is after the last 20 years we know Carnival ships are always gonna come in a little smaller the RCI ships now. But with similar or more capacity. It’s just cheaper that way. Carnival hasn’t really “wowed” the industry since 1996 with the debut of Carnival Destiny. But that’s ok, they don’t need to. They made enough of a name for themselves up until that point that they only have to do “just enough” to keep their business model.

 

These new ships are going to be incredibly similar in size to Icon of the Seas and that is exciting. On paper they are 20,000 tons less, but that’s not really much. Icon gets a huge bump in GT for the AquaDome and how they measure GT on interior spaces, she really isn’t much larger than the Oasis class. Don’t expect any open air Boardwalk’s or Central Park’s on the Carnival versions though, that is way too much revenue producing space to waste on fresh air. And I don’t see how the capacity would get to 8K with any of that kind of design. 

[Tom-n-Cheryl]

MSC is taking aim (a shot) as a "value" cruise line, I'm sure all others in that category are taking notice. Our last office cruise was on the Seashore earlier this year. My staff really liked having the beverage package/WiFi as part of the booking, at a very reasonable price. 

 

Tom

[jimbo5544]

57 minutes ago, dolphinsfan246 said:

This thread is out of control. It’s very simple why Carnival hasn’t played mega ship game until now. (I’d argue Excel class is a mega ship, which was ordered in 2015, but I digress) Carnival always has , and always will stick to a very strict price/berth ratio on their new build orders. It’s the very reason the Pinnacle project was cancelled. Everybody in Carnival Corp wanted it. It was a real design, all the blueprints were made up. Carnival would have made the first 200K+ move over 20 years ago BUT that euro conversion rate came out, and price was not right. It was then immediately cancelled by Micky, no questions asked. 
 

Fast forward to today. Why are they now getting 230,000 ton ships? Because the price is right. BUT what do we have to sacrifice in order to get it? Sharing with almost 8,000 fellow passengers. It’s the only way to get that price/berth ratio in the sweet spot that Carnival sticks to. It’s how they keep their fares lower. They know they compete on price, and blue cards are their #1 priority. What attracts more blue cards than a good deal? 

 

Bottom line is after the last 20 years we know Carnival ships are always gonna come in a little smaller the RCI ships now. But with similar or more capacity. It’s just cheaper that way. Carnival hasn’t really “wowed” the industry since 1996 with the debut of Carnival Destiny. But that’s ok, they don’t need to. They made enough of a name for themselves up until that point that they only have to do “just enough” to keep their business model.

 

These new ships are going to be incredibly similar in size to Icon of the Seas and that is exciting. On paper they are 20,000 tons less, but that’s not really much. Icon gets a huge bump in GT for the AquaDome and how they measure GT on interior spaces, she really isn’t much larger than the Oasis class. Don’t expect any open air Boardwalk’s or Central Park’s on the Carnival versions though, that is way too much revenue producing space to waste on fresh air. And I don’t see how the capacity would get to 8K with any of that kind of design. 

maybe you should call them and give them your expertise.

[gkbiiii]

13 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Carnival is building ships that make sense for Carnival when they make sense.

 

You have it backwards. Royal has been one upping itself with bigger and bigger ships while Carnival was building more sensible and affordable ships. Carnival already has an assortment of smaller ships. Royal is trying to play catch up.

They did have smaller ships, that could go places, but many were sent to be scraped due to COVID, and those that remain are getting old.  The Icon ship are limited to where they can go, so Royal, like Princess, needs vessels that can go through Panama Canal and into smaller ports.

[BlerkOne]

10 minutes ago, gkbiiii said:

They did have smaller ships, that could go places, but many were sent to be scraped due to COVID, and those that remain are getting old.  The Icon ship are limited to where they can go, so Royal, like Princess, needs vessels that can go through Panama Canal and into smaller ports.

Carnival still does have smaller ships that are in fine shape and is spending millions on updating and giving others extended life. All much cheaper than building new shopping malls.

 

Oasis came out in 2009 and Carnival came out with Dream and Vista classes since then. Carnival has a well established lead in LNG ships which Royal is just beginning. Once again, it is Royal following the leader.

[BlerkOne]

56 minutes ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

MSC is taking aim (a shot) as a "value" cruise line, I'm sure all others in that category are taking notice. Our last office cruise was on the Seashore earlier this year. My staff really liked having the beverage package/WiFi as part of the booking, at a very reasonable price. 

 

Tom

Being privately held with enormous financial resources, MSC is still willing to poach customers and likely lose money to stay in the game.

[BlerkOne]

3 hours ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

With the prices that RCI is charging and getting for the Icon Class ships, do you really think the market is going to collapse?  Bookings have been stronger than pre Covid.

At some point it will definitely soften. Bookings are stronger. FOMO is getting weaker. Household debt is a record highs. It isn't sustainable.

[BlerkOne]

3 hours ago, aborgman said:

 

Yeah... 98% as much gross tonnage is the same size.

No it isn't. and What about costs?

[BlerkOne]

4 hours ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

 

They have been printing money non stop with their mega ships except for the shutdown and Carnival's stock would certainly be in a substantially better position if Carnival had built their first Oasis sized ship in about 2017 instead of waiting till 2029.

I'm not saying anything else because the splinters on the bench stink.

Carnival would have been bankrupt. Carnival builds ships that make sense for Carnival. They aren't obsessed with size like Royal is.

[aborgman]

34 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

No it isn't. and What about costs?

 

Costs are costs, not size.

 

A 230K GT ship that costs $10 billion is the same size as a 230K GT ship that costs $1 billion.

[BlerkOne]

1 minute ago, aborgman said:

 

Costs are costs, not size.

 

A 230K GT ship that costs $10 billion is the same size as a 230K GT ship that costs $1 billion.

Carnival isn't building any 230 GT ships and we all know GT is a gross misrepresentation as to actual ship size.

 

If Carnival chooses to build a ship the same size as Royal, Carnival could still undercut Royal on price and make the same profit.