Complimentary wines

[Vineyard View]

A note to office of the president by all on here wouldn’t hurt. Maybe it won’t help, but nothing to loose. 

[johng75370]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:56 PM, Vineyard View said:

A note to office of the president by all on here wouldn’t hurt. Maybe it won’t help, but nothing to loose. 

@Vineyard View, thanks for the suggestion.  I sent an email on Sunday, and promptly received a personalized response this morning (noting both my most recent and my upcoming voyage).  Here’s the bulk of it (without personal details):

 

Ms. Leahy has reviewed your comments and asked me to respond on her behalf, and to express her sincere regret for the disappointment you experienced.

 

We are disheartened to learn of your concerns regarding the quality of our complimentary wine program. Your comments regarding a lack of many options onboard, as well as the wine and cognac available being cheap, are truly disappointing. Please be assured that we have not reduced the level of investment in this program; in fact we are looking at a number of changes intended to refresh and enhance our offerings. In addition, we continue to provide our guests with an inviting selection of premium wines and spirits for purchase. Maintaining and investing in the quality and integrity of Seabourn is a priority at every level, and will not be compromised.

[brittany12]

If only we could put any confidence in the CEO office's expressions of regret and disappointment over you finding many of the "fine wines" cheap and bad and the selection too limited. It's a little like, "I'm shocked, shocked to find out that gambling is going on." The holding out of some hope that it might get better is nice if real. I like the little jab that if you don't like what we give you for free, you can always buy what you like from our (overpriced) premium list, which gives us lots of profit.

[johng75370]

53 minutes ago, brittany12 said:

you can always buy what you like from our (overpriced) premium list, which gives us lots of profit.

Compared to other lines we've sailed on recently (in particular looking at you, Explora) we've found SB's premium list to be reasonably priced when you add in the SB Club discount and their tiered discount pricing.  Overall not too far from (and occasionally below) what we pay retail here in Northern California.  

[Vineyard View]

4 hours ago, johng75370 said:

Compared to other lines we've sailed on recently (in particular looking at you, Explora) we've found SB's premium list to be reasonably priced when you add in the SB Club discount and their tiered discount pricing.  Overall not too far from (and occasionally below) what we pay retail here in Northern California.  

I would agree that what we saw last year did not seem to be huge mark up in pricing. We did order a couple times. 
That said, we did not see the marketed, included ‘fine wines’. Some were okay, but not close to the ‘fine’ category. I sincerely hope that if enough voices are raised, it might catch some attention. Thank you for the update from your inquiry. I found my email in the outbox, and have rectified that, so hopefully the more voices……

[BOB999]

I must say that the wine situation is worse on the Expedition ships.

 

There are no premium wines available by the glass, only the bottle (at restaurant pricing where I live in).  The sommolier doesn't pay attention to anyone who isnt ordering premium bottles.   Lastly some of the waiters get visibly annoyed if you try to order something in The Restaurant other than the red/white of the day.

 

My Seabourn MO (I've only done Expedition cruises) is to take the first lunch in Collonaide and try various wines of the varietals I like.  Then supplement at one of the bars to see if I have missed something and review the list.  After that, after the first few dinners in The Restaurant I find the waiter most to my liking and always sit in their section.  Worked well for me.

 

Certainly better than Silversea where they had to get corporate permission to see the wine list...

[johng75370]

FWIW, here is the wine list from Odyssey in Alaska in early July; much different than what @galeforce9 posted from Encore (mostly to the positive).  I know there is some region-to-region variation, but the difference in these lists between Odyssey in July and Encore in August is not good for Seabourn maintaining their brand reputation.  

 

Seabourn should really drop the "fine wines" labelling, and let people decide for themselves if it suits their tastes and is worth coming back to in the future. On Odyssey in July we were happy with the included list overall, and had some that would be right in line with what we have at home.  But we don't think of our typical wine at home as "fine wine" in any sense.  

 

 

Edited September 4 by johng75370

[lincslady]

The 'fine wines' rubbish applies to pretty much all the inclusive lines; none are 'fine' but some provide slightly better ones and/or more choice than others.

[Hlitner]

We are currently on the Encore, where the included wines ate ordinary items that are often worth less than $10 a bottle at retail.  But, there are some bargains to be found on the larger wine list.  Last evening, at Solis.  we bought a bottle of Chateau Lassegue 2017 which is a Grand Cru Bordeaux that can be found in the States.  With our SB Club discoiunt it cost us about $77.  The retail for this wine would usually be at least $65.  
 

That being said. It is difficult to defend a line that ONLY offers Hardy VS Cognac as it’s included brandy.  And the practice of not having an available list of included wines is sad.  One has to play “20 questions” to learn the daily options.  I will also mention that our recent Oceania cruise had a large selection of included wines with real wine lists.

 

Hank

[galeforce9]

19 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We are currently on the Encore, where the included wines ate ordinary items that are often worth less than $10 a bottle at retail.  But, there are some bargains to be found on the larger wine list.  Last evening, at Solis.  we bought a bottle of Chateau Lassegue 2017 which is a Grand Cru Bordeaux that can be found in the States.  With our SB Club discoiunt it cost us about $77.  The retail for this wine would usually be at least $65.  
 

That being said. It is difficult to defend a line that ONLY offers Hardy VS Cognac as it’s included brandy.  And the practice of not having an available list of included wines is sad.  One has to play “20 questions” to learn the daily options.  I will also mention that our recent Oceania cruise had a large selection of included wines with real wine lists.

 

Hank

Thanks @Hlitner    I hope to try this in solis in a few weeks.  Any similar tips would be greatly appreciated 

[fudge]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

It is difficult to defend a line that ONLY offers Hardy VS Cognac as it’s included brandy.

You are not kidding, I will never forgive Seabourn for that cut back, outrageous, unforgivable even.🥲 

[Hlitner]

45 minutes ago, galeforce9 said:

Thanks @Hlitner    I hope to try this in solis in a few weeks.  Any similar tips would be greatly appreciated 

At the risk of sounding like a wine snob, that Lassegue really changed character after some breathing time. At first sip, we were underwhelmed.  15 minutes later it softened into a delightful wine for that price.

[CruiserfaeFife]

On Quest just now. I haven’t managed to track down a copy of the list (obviously I haven’t found the secret password yet 🙃) but the wines on offer are similar to the Odyssey list posted by @johng75370 above. No sign of Mateus Rose (thankfully) but the Cala from Provence is drinkable - also the Louis Latour Chardonnay and Raymond, a Californian Cabernet Sauvignon. Certainly not what I would class as fine wines but I think I’ll just about pull through…

[johng75370]

1 hour ago, CruiserfaeFife said:

On Quest just now. I haven’t managed to track down a copy of the list (obviously I haven’t found the secret password yet 🙃)

I’ve gotten it from Seabourn Square.  They will print out a copy for you (not sure why they don’t have a stack preprinted).  That usually works; have never found success asking cabin attendant or a sommelier.

 

[nancygp]

21 minutes ago, johng75370 said:

I’ve gotten it from Seabourn Square.  They will print out a copy for you (not sure why they don’t have a stack preprinted).  That usually works; have never found success asking cabin attendant or a sommelier.

 

On my recent Sojourn cruise, there were a stack of preprinted included wine lists.  Of course I didn’t notice until a few days prior to the end of the cruise. 😃.  However, within a day or two of the cruise, I found several wines to my liking and had no problem having them in the restaurant and colonnade.  Finally, several of the servers knew my preferred Chardonnay and would bring it to me without asking for it.

 

Nancy

Edited September 4 by nancygp

[brittany12]

I would just add that on my recent Sojourn trip, and I see printed on the Odyssey included wine list above, there is a lovely Kracher dessert wine, so it might be all around the fleet this summer. Kracher makes Austria's finest desert wines and some of the best in the world. Although I am certain Seabourn has chosen the bottom of his offerings, it is very good and was a great way to finish our meals each night, or have it with certain dishes like foie gras when offered or ordered. 

[AmateurGO]

Besides the generally poor quality of the "included" wines, I felt the attitude of the sommeliers I talked to to be less that helpful.  If you were not buying one of the "optional" wines (at a very inflated price), they did not want to talk to you.  On that cruise (Greek islands, May '23) they did not even want to tell you what wines were available on the included list and they would not give you the list.  Perhaps they were embarrassed by the poor quality of the included wines, but that is no excuse for their attitude.

[lincslady]

Sad to read this.  A few years ago the wine waiters (they are not sommeliers, there is only one  sommelier on board usually)  were sympathetic - actually knowing the wines were nothing special though not of course saying so - would bring something different for you to try, and after a day or two we used to be able to say, no, not that, could we please have the ....... we had yesterday.  Just needed to remember the names.  It does sound as if they are now being told from on high to get you to buy a paid for one instead.  Naughty.  The unavailability of a list has been the same for many years, though.  In fairness, it would change quite often according to what is available.

[brittany12]

Nice to see other experienced and knowledgable sailors now joining in on the negative aspects of the overall wine situation, from quality to pricing, and Seabourn's sometimes not so subtle efforts to get people to purchase from the premium list. On another message, there were so many deniers or people who never noticed the inclusion of the premium wine list in the back of the Solis menu, or respectfully having to ask the servers if the complimentary wines were even available in Solis. In the old days, and even before Covid, the waiters everywhere in the MDR or Restaurant 2, and then Keller after it opened never served the wines. It was a separate staff of sommeliers who dealt with the wines but now the waiting and wine serving jobs are combined, for economy reasons, and the few remaining true sommeliers are there largely to push the premium product. Reason is clear. Seabourn suffered gigantic losses during Covid shutdown and is trying to derive additional revenue wherever it can by selling premiums and downgrading even further (in all truth it was never great)  the quality of the complimentary "fine wines" (haha) offerings. 

[SLSD]

18 minutes ago, brittany12 said:

Nice to see other experienced and knowledgable sailors now joining in on the negative aspects of the overall wine situation, from quality to pricing, and Seabourn's sometimes not so subtle efforts to get people to purchase from the premium list. On another message, there were so many deniers or people who never noticed the inclusion of the premium wine list in the back of the Solis menu, or respectfully having to ask the servers if the complimentary wines were even available in Solis. In the old days, and even before Covid, the waiters everywhere in the MDR or Restaurant 2, and then Keller after it opened never served the wines. It was a separate staff of sommeliers who dealt with the wines but now the waiting and wine serving jobs are combined, for economy reasons, and the few remaining true sommeliers are there largely to push the premium product. Reason is clear. Seabourn suffered gigantic losses during Covid shutdown and is trying to derive additional revenue wherever it can by selling premiums and downgrading even further (in all truth it was never great)  the quality of the complimentary "fine wines" (haha) offerings. 

All that you say is true.  Seabourn's parent company has a huge debt and they are looking for ways to save money and create more profits.  We all understand that.  Honestly, I thought the complimentary wines on Sojourn in July and August this year were a step up from last year's offerings on Ovation.  I am not very picky about wines, but do know when they are decent.  As far as Solis goes, the premium wines (revenue wines) were NOT pushed on our 28 day voyage.  There was no mention of them in Solis and I did not feel the premium wine list was in our faces at all.  I may well be an outlier among Seabourn cruisers, but while the complimentary wines were not "fine" wines, they were decent.  I do suggest that Seabourn should drop the "fine wine" descriptor in their marketing and advertise that they offer "complimentary wines".  

Edited September 4 by SLSD

[nancygp]

,On another lux line I frequented many times, the waiters served the complimentary wines offered that day as well as getting you a different ones that were available.  This system began quite a few years before Covid.  So, this is not unique to seabourn,  the sommeliers were helpful but like seabourn, their focus is to sell wines from the revenue list.

 

like SLSD, we had a similar experience as noted above and we shared quite a few meals together in the restaurant and Solis during our 14 day cruise,  I went to Solis and the premium wine list was never pushed on us,  as a matter of fact, on my second visit, the sommelier knew that I like the included Flanagan Chardonnay and asked if I’d like her to bring me a glass.  
 

as the included wines “fine” wines?  No they are not but I found quite a few that were decent and to my liking. 
 

the only things I found the head sommelier and other sommeliers pushing were the wine lunches and dinner.  Actually, I’d use the term promoting as opposed to pushing.

 

 

Edited September 4 by nancygp

[galeforce9]

As the original poster, I think the particular issue for me is that Encore currently seems to have a sub par complimentary wine offering compared to some of the other ships’ recently shared complimentary lists and recounted experiences.  So, for instance, referring to some of the wines being decent etc from a recent Sojourn experience doesn’t necessarily translate to someone on Encore having the same opportunity to experience that.  A consistent offering across the brand even in the face of cost cutting (although denied by Natalya) would be desirable.   What would be even more desirable is a general improvement in that list.   

Edited September 4 by galeforce9

[SLSD]

3 hours ago, galeforce9 said:

As the original poster, I think the particular issue for me is that Encore currently seems to have a sub par complimentary wine offering compared to some of the other ships’ recently shared complimentary lists and recounted experiences.  So, for instance, referring to some of the wines being decent etc from a recent Sojourn experience doesn’t necessarily translate to someone on Encore having the same opportunity to experience that.  A consistent offering across the brand even in the face of cost cutting (although denied by Natalya) would be desirable.   What would be even more desirable is a general improvement in that list.   

I think it is reasonable to expect consistency across the fleet of ships.  

[brittany12]

Completely agree that any cruise line must have consistent policies regarding service, food, and beverages, including wine selection. 

[kej1]

The complimentary wines were below average on our 30 day Pursuit cruise last spring in the South Pacific.  We  made due some of the time with the Louis Latour Chard and the rose from Provence ( servers were excellent btw in knowing what we wanted everywhere on the ship), but mostly purchased premium wines at dinner - especially red although they ran out of many.   We don’t drink cocktails so wine with meals and as cocktails is important to us.  Living in San Francisco we are well aware the wine industry is really suffering right now in California.  Lots of overproduction and younger people are not drinking much wine.  Was in the news today that Constellation one of the huge liquor distributors nation wide is suffering financially due to large decreased wine sales.  Duckhorn ( California) which produces very nice and very popular wines  in the mid range made the news as sales way down as well.  I understand Seabourn is struggling post Covid but now would be a great time for a savvy purchasing person to acquire some at least better wines at great prices.  IMHO!  Just a suggestion if anyone from Seabourn mgmt is listening!  Great time to up the wine game!  Don’t expect the best but better than white zin and some of the others named by the OP that are really poor.  We still had a very nice time but “ fine wines” is false advertising!