Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[Kay S]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Totally agree. I just stopped reading the post you are referring to as it became more and more unreadable.

I was an English teacher.  That post is fine literature to some of the student stuff I have read in my life. 🙂  I managed to read (and follow it) but then I'm a trained professional. 🤣

[TRLD]

37 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

Thanks for the heads up. Just doing a Caribbean cruise with a good number of ports. The Caribbean ports offer us nothing since we’ve been to them dozens of times. It’s a good day in port if you don’t get pickpocketed. I heard some positive comments about the food and service. My wife and I are easy to please, we don’t look for negatives, just to get away from the cold winters up north.

Their buffet was very good. One could get grilled lobster to order every night along with grilled to order steaks. Was less impressed with their grand dinning room and specialty restaurants.

[Sdfgh]

15 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Their buffet was very good. One could get grilled lobster to order every night along with grilled to order steaks. Was less impressed with their grand dinning room and specialty restaurants.

We are going on Vista, their newest ship, not sure if that makes any difference 

[TRLD]

1 minute ago, Sdfgh said:

We are going on Vista, their newest ship, not sure if that makes any difference 

Was on Regatta one of their oldest, smallest ships. May your experience be satisfactory.

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 hour ago, Kay S said:

I was an English teacher.  That post is fine literature to some of the student stuff I have read in my life. 🙂  I managed to read (and follow it) but then I'm a trained professional. 🤣

 

I was an editor. I'm retired. That means I don't have to read all the way through if I don't want to! 😜

[ExArkie]

36 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Their buffet was very good. One could get grilled lobster to order every night along with grilled to order steaks. Was less impressed with their grand dinning room and specialty restaurants.

Agreed. We found the best meal to be the cook-to-order grill in their buffet. Apart from the Asian restaurant Red Ginger, the specialties weren’t all that special. 

[ontheweb]

39 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I was an editor. I'm retired. That means I don't have to read all the way through if I don't want to! 😜

Well, I am not and never was an editor, and I also chose not to read through it.

[Mary229]

6 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Well, I am not and never was an editor, and I also chose not to read through it.

That person must have done a copy and paste.  His posts are usually readable.  Maybe he should try again. 

[ontheweb]

13 hours ago, Mary229 said:

That person must have done a copy and paste.  His posts are usually readable.  Maybe he should try again. 

Not an excuse as you can edit and put in paragraph breaks after pasting.

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

16 hours ago, TRLD said:

We spent 22 days on Oceania in April. Would only do them in the future on a port intensive itinerary that was unique. The sea days were the ocean going version of ground hog day. Every day the same.

 

Oceania does many things well but the environment was extremely sedate. Kind of like the board meeting cocktail parties i used to attend. Very nice on the surface but quickly gets tedious.

 

Their production shows made HALs look good.

Thanks for sharing.

[3rdGenCunarder]

31 minutes ago, Sdfgh said:

What HAL has is a niche that attracts older, more well traveled guests, people with a higher household income than on other mass market cruise lines, as well as several other unique demographics that set it apart. This niche should be embraced and marketed as such, it is rather being abandoned by CCL. HAL guests don’t want the water parks, the loud poolside music, or the feeling that half the guests are walking around inebriated.

Quite frankly, having sailed with HAL about 50 times I don’t hear guests complaining that prices are too high. If my cruise was a couple of hundred dollars more it wouldn’t stop me, or most other HAL guests from going.

If HAL would market itself for what it is rather then try to reinvent itself to be just what most of the other cruise lines are perhaps their stepchild status would be gone. 
Some changes I would suggest is to vastly improve the activities and nightly entertainment, all geared to the more well traveled guests.

 

I'm not sure why you think HAL passengers have a higher income than those on other mass market lines. You may not hear people complain about prices, but the people who don't like the price probably aren't on the ship. 

 

Over the years, I have given up on a number of cruise lines because I don't want mega ships, crowds, amusement parks, and noise. I now sail the two lines I started with, HAL and Cunard. Both do seem to attract older more well-traveled passengers. I've always liked that about both lines. I used to think of HAL as "Cunard Lite." Sadly, it has become VERY "lite." I would love to see more and more varied entertainment and enrichment, and NOT have to spend a month or more on the ship for HAL to consider me to be worth such treatment. 

 

The problem with marketing HAL for itself is that, in a competitive market, it doesn't look attractive to new customers. "Quiet days at sea with a good book or just watching the ocean." Yeah, that's going to bring people running. HAL already has somewhat of a reputation as God's waiting room. (I don't see it that way; I see it as people looking up and saying, "Not yet!") And, like it or not, older passengers may not have a lot of cruises left in them. They have to be replaced. Yes, younger customers are getting older and may be ready to transition to a quieter cruise, but it's hard to sell that. 

 

I think HAL's best selling point is itineraries. Maybe that could be a way to attract attention. You know the pizza boxes that say "You've tried the rest, now try the best." That could be HAL's niche. You've been to the same old, same old ports. But we'll take you to ports the other lines don't go to!

 

[Mary229]

22 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

nk HAL's best selling point is itineraries. Maybe that could be a way to attract attention. You know the pizza boxes that say "You've tried the rest, now try the best." That could be HAL's niche. You've been to the same old, same old ports. But we'll take you to ports the other lines don't go to!

Just re-iterating.   This is key.  Old is a political demographic perhaps but it is not a marketing niche.  

[Sdfgh]

20 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I'm not sure why you think HAL passengers have a higher income than those on other mass market lines. You may not hear people complain about prices, but the people who don't like the price probably aren't on the ship. 

 

Over the years, I have given up on a number of cruise lines because I don't want mega ships, crowds, amusement parks, and noise. I now sail the two lines I started with, HAL and Cunard. Both do seem to attract older more well-traveled passengers. I've always liked that about both lines. I used to think of HAL as "Cunard Lite." Sadly, it has become VERY "lite." I would love to see more and more varied entertainment and enrichment, and NOT have to spend a month or more on the ship for HAL to consider me to be worth such treatment. 

 

The problem with marketing HAL for itself is that, in a competitive market, it doesn't look attractive to new customers. "Quiet days at sea with a good book or just watching the ocean." Yeah, that's going to bring people running. HAL already has somewhat of a reputation as God's waiting room. (I don't see it that way; I see it as people looking up and saying, "Not yet!") And, like it or not, older passengers may not have a lot of cruises left in them. They have to be replaced. Yes, younger customers are getting older and may be ready to transition to a quieter cruise, but it's hard to sell that. 

 

I think HAL's best selling point is itineraries. Maybe that could be a way to attract attention. You know the pizza boxes that say "You've tried the rest, now try the best." That could be HAL's niche. You've been to the same old, same old ports. But we'll take you to ports the other lines don't go to!

 

First of all your points are all valid. When you say the people who don’t like the prices are not onboard. That being the case , those onboard are not as price conscious simply because it really doesn’t matter that much to them. Comparing HAL to Carnival one has to be blind not to see the difference. Older, more established guests tend to indicate more financially secure. Your reference to “God’s waiting room “ is quite depressing, however , not completely inaccurate. 
Competing in markets such as Alaska, and the Caribbean, in general itineraries cannot be that unique even with mid sized ships. Those 2 markets bring in huge profits for HAL simply because they have several ships in each region and the guests are a high percentage of Americans ( Americans tend not to opt out of tipping ). There aren’t enough potential passengers that are looking for 30+ day itineraries to more exotic destinations. Those type of passengers are cultivated by starting with 7 day cookie cutter cruises. 
Unfortunately, without new ships every few years, cutting back on the smaller niceties that made HAL somewhat special, the future is at best uncertain and I believe CCL has a DNR order for HAL.

[Godsonsafari]

Cruise lines can cut costs for the purposes of increasing profits just as much as they can do it or the sake of paying creditors. Looking at their DTE ratio they've reduced their debt substantially in 2024. I understand financing of debt is more expensive now, but that doesn't have a 1:1 relationship with the MDR menu options or staffing.

I personally see reductions in service levels across the entirety of tourism & hospitality, so any shifts like not seeing steak and lobster on dinner menus isn't surprising to me even if I don't love it. At this point, HAL provides me my best casino offers and as such they are the line I am most likely to keep on cruising consistently. That said, I wish there was more interplay between Carnival's lines to give me offers and alternatives. As much as I do appreciate the more laid back, fewer kids sorta thing on HAL, there's something to be said about the occasional change of pace and itinerary options that would come with taking Princess or Carnival. Obviously as my signature shows, I don't seek to be a brand loyal sorta guy. I want whatever's best for me at that given time based on my interests, itinerary, costs, whatever. 

[howiefrommd]

2 hours ago, Sdfgh said:

It is not simply an issue of writing off any loses. It appears that CCL views HAL as a stepchild. The new money is going to the other cruise lines under the CCL umbrella. HAL is filling their ships to 100% capacity, pricing appears competitive, food and service are excellent, and in general the cruise industry is making more money now than in the recent past. 
 What HAL has is a niche that attracts older, more well traveled guests, people with a higher household income than on other mass market cruise lines, as well as several other unique demographics that set it apart. This niche should be embraced and marketed as such, it is rather being abandoned by CCL. HAL guests don’t want the water parks, the loud poolside music, or the feeling that half the guests are walking around inebriated.

Quite frankly, having sailed with HAL about 50 times I don’t hear guests complaining that prices are too high. If my cruise was a couple of hundred dollars more it wouldn’t stop me, or most other HAL guests from going.

If HAL would market itself for what it is rather then try to reinvent itself to be just what most of the other cruise lines are perhaps their stepchild status would be gone. 
Some changes I would suggest is to vastly improve the activities and nightly entertainment, all geared to the more well traveled guests. All fares should include gratuities, currently half the people have it included as part of a package, others have it added on to their daily charges, and many others have it removed by opting out toward the end of the cruise. If EVERYONE was paying as part of a slightly increased fare, it would not cost anything additional, it would force those who opt out to contribute.

I hope the 150 years that HAL has been in business is not very close to ending.

 

 

We tend to take the longer Grand/Legendary cruises with HAL.  We are very itinerary driven and not cruise line driven.  In actuality I find HAL very price competitive.  On my last two cruises (grand Australia and Arctic Circle) I was able to get a NS at insanely reduced prices as a result of upsell offers. 

 

On an aside, I was watching one of the financial channels on TV awhile back and they happen to be discussing the cruise industry. One of the analysts asked why do you think the newer ships of Oceania has no inside cabins.  There seemed to be agreement that inside cabins are loss leaders.  The larger cruise lines hopes to upsell products to their inside (as well as all) passengers.  When I take HAL cruises, these are well seasoned travelers.  How many are buying excursions (if not included in HIA), how many are paying to eat in specialty restaurants (if not included in HIA) , etc.  

 

None of us will know what makes money or not.  The fact that there are no new orders is one of concern. CC attracts (compared to other social media platforms)  the same very limited base of posters.  Some will continually state that HAL has not ordered due to debt from Covid times.  Cruise lines historically are debt ridden, way before Covid. 

 

[stevenr597]

What can Holland America do...after all they have mostly smaller ships and only a few newer ships still less than 100,000 tons.

I don't believe that Holland American can or would want to compete with the super-Premium lines such as Silversea, Seabourn, Crystal etc. 

But there is a market for cruise lines which operate a "step above" the main stream lines such as RCCL and NCL.  Such lines include Oceania and Azamara.  Both of these lines do have smaller ships.  

What they offer is service, service, and more service, as well as excellent food and tasteful entertainment.  That also offer itineraries that are different from the typical mainstream destinations.  

H.A. would be a perfect fit for such a cruise line. 

[TRLD]

41 minutes ago, stevenr597 said:

What can Holland America do...after all they have mostly smaller ships and only a few newer ships still less than 100,000 tons.

I don't believe that Holland American can or would want to compete with the super-Premium lines such as Silversea, Seabourn, Crystal etc. 

But there is a market for cruise lines which operate a "step above" the main stream lines such as RCCL and NCL.  Such lines include Oceania and Azamara.  Both of these lines do have smaller ships.  

What they offer is service, service, and more service, as well as excellent food and tasteful entertainment.  That also offer itineraries that are different from the typical mainstream destinations.  

H.A. would be a perfect fit for such a cruise line. 

However their average price point is about twice that of HAL. With their new ships half the size,or less, of HALs.  Really not a good fit.

 

HAL.is in a unique place as far as its positioning. Pricing competitive with mass market lines, with smaller average ship size, and longer, more unique itineraries.

[3rdGenCunarder]

One of HAL's marketing problems has always been the varied ships.

 

Volendam and Zaandam are small. No Music Walk, no Tamarind, no Dutch Cafe. The spa is small, no thermal pool, just a jacuzzi. Relatively few balconies compared to larger ships, so an ordinary balcony is expensive (I know, I know, they call it a Vista suite, but it's just a balcony cabin). Last winter, there was a single piano player in Mix, piano player or jazz combo in Ocean Bar. maybe Step One in the main showroom, I don't remember. A very small BB King. And a proper library.

 

The Pinnacles are much larger. Music Walk, Tamarind, Sel de Mer (or whatever it's called now), Dutch Cafe, Big Screen movies by the pool, larger/more varied buffet, greater variety of cabins at a wider variety of prices. No bar band, no bar piano player. "Library" is more like a bookstore with multiples of new books, but not the collection that a proper library would have. 

 

And the Vistas and Signatures somewhere in between. 

 

You could sail on Zaandam one time and K'dam the next, and the only things that would tell you you're on HAL would be the service and the MDR menus, which seem to be pretty much the same for all ships. So how do you come up with a marketing "image" for this mix?

[Mary229]

55 minutes ago, stevenr597 said:

What can Holland America do...after all they have mostly smaller ships and only a few newer ships still less than 100,000 tons.

I don't believe that Holland American can or would want to compete with the super-Premium lines such as Silversea, Seabourn, Crystal etc. 

But there is a market for cruise lines which operate a "step above" the main stream lines such as RCCL and NCL.  Such lines include Oceania and Azamara.  Both of these lines do have smaller ships.  

What they offer is service, service, and more service, as well as excellent food and tasteful entertainment.  That also offer itineraries that are different from the typical mainstream destinations.  

H.A. would be a perfect fit for such a cruise line. 

Azamara belongs to Sycamore and I don’t think it has enough track record to be betting on.  Oceania is owned by NCL and some of us disagree that they are a step up, yes some of their ships are smaller but so is a fishing dinghy. 

[Mary229]

11 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

One of HAL's marketing problems has always been the varied ships.

 

Volendam and Zaandam are small. No Music Walk, no Tamarind, no Dutch Cafe. The spa is small, no thermal pool, just a jacuzzi. Relatively few balconies compared to larger ships, so an ordinary balcony is expensive (I know, I know, they call it a Vista suite, but it's just a balcony cabin). Last winter, there was a single piano player in Mix, piano player or jazz combo in Ocean Bar. maybe Step One in the main showroom, I don't remember. A very small BB King. And a proper library.

 

The Pinnacles are much larger. Music Walk, Tamarind, Sel de Mer (or whatever it's called now), Dutch Cafe, Big Screen movies by the pool, larger/more varied buffet, greater variety of cabins at a wider variety of prices. No bar band, no bar piano player. "Library" is more like a bookstore with multiples of new books, but not the collection that a proper library would have. 

 

And the Vistas and Signatures somewhere in between. 

 

You could sail on Zaandam one time and K'dam the next, and the only things that would tell you you're on HAL would be the service and the MDR menus, which seem to be pretty much the same for all ships. So how do you come up with a marketing "image" for this mix?

Their biggest problem is they know their loyalist niche - long voyages, unique itineraries but that doesn’t pay all of the bills. So how to market to the casual cruiser and the casino cruiser while not alienating the loyalist group. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

3 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Their biggest problem is they know their loyalist niche - long voyages, unique itineraries but that doesn’t pay all of the bills. So how to market to the casual cruiser and the casino cruiser while not alienating the loyalist group. 

 

You're right about paying the bills. The longer voyages attract more 4 and 5 stars. We probably spend less than the entry-level passengers on the bus runs.

 

We already have portraits that were taken on the ship (when we were younger and looked better 🤣). We already have the HAL tee/sweatshirt/ballcap. We can be happy on our own in many ports, so we may not book lots of excursions. Or we're experienced enough to find independent tours. We don't pay full price for the specialty restaurants. We don't pay full price for wine packages. We don't pay for laundry. 

[Sdfgh]

38 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

One of HAL's marketing problems has always been the varied ships.

 

Volendam and Zaandam are small. No Music Walk, no Tamarind, no Dutch Cafe. The spa is small, no thermal pool, just a jacuzzi. Relatively few balconies compared to larger ships, so an ordinary balcony is expensive (I know, I know, they call it a Vista suite, but it's just a balcony cabin). Last winter, there was a single piano player in Mix, piano player or jazz combo in Ocean Bar. maybe Step One in the main showroom, I don't remember. A very small BB King. And a proper library.

 

The Pinnacles are much larger. Music Walk, Tamarind, Sel de Mer (or whatever it's called now), Dutch Cafe, Big Screen movies by the pool, larger/more varied buffet, greater variety of cabins at a wider variety of prices. No bar band, no bar piano player. "Library" is more like a bookstore with multiples of new books, but not the collection that a proper library would have. 

 

And the Vistas and Signatures somewhere in between. 

 

You could sail on Zaandam one time and K'dam the next, and the only things that would tell you you're on HAL would be the service and the MDR menus, which seem to be pretty much the same for all ships. So how do you come up with a marketing "image" for this mix?

Almost all cruise lines have ships of varying sizes and offerings. As newer class ships are introduced they must add new venues, different things to do, and some sort of enticement to get you aboard. The newest ships generally, not always, charge a premium to sample their cutting edge experience. I don’t think HALs problem is the various size ships. IMO, HAL tends to keep their older ships too long, most recent example the Rotterdam, which was often referred to as the Rottendam. 

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

You're right about paying the bills. The longer voyages attract more 4 and 5 stars. We probably spend less than the entry-level passengers on the bus runs.

 

We already have portraits that were taken on the ship (when we were younger and looked better 🤣). We already have the HAL tee/sweatshirt/ballcap. We can be happy on our own in many ports, so we may not book lots of excursions. Or we're experienced enough to find independent tours. We don't pay full price for the specialty restaurants. We don't pay full price for wine packages. We don't pay for laundry. 

The revenue profile changes between the two types. The shorter cruises have lower fares, but more on board spend. On the longer cruises the per day far tends to be higher (as much as 50% per day on some cabin types) which should make up for the lower on board spend.

[TRLD]

8 hours ago, Sdfgh said:

Unfortunately I don’t believe it is. This is how many individuals live, create debt , walk away, and depend on others to subsidize them. 

The only way the company can walk away it to declare bankruptcy. No sign they are willing or anywhere close to that action of last resort, which would wipe out the stock holder and make the debt holders the new shareholders in the restructured company.

[howiefrommd]

2 hours ago, TRLD said:

However their average price point is about twice that of HAL. With their new ships half the size,or less, of HALs.  Really not a good fit.

 

HAL.is in a unique place as far as its positioning. Pricing competitive with mass market lines, with smaller average ship size, and longer, more unique itineraries.

When we take HAL it tends to be for the Grand/Legendary cruises.  Although the initial rates are quite higher, we have always ended up getting amazingly priced upsells.  The last 2 (Grand Australia and Arctic Circle) we were offered (and took) Neptune Suites at amazingly discounted rates.  

 

Note: I was responding to posting number 134 and in error quoted post number 125

Edited September 5 by howiefrommd
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