auto tipping - not removable ?

[Tigrou]

We will opt out of the auto-tipping for one reason only. I don't think it is any business of the cruiseline (or the tax department) how much the staff are earning in tips.

 

I don't know whether the crew do have to pay tax on their earnings at sea. If they do, which country do they pay tax to - the country where the ship is registered, the country where the cruise line is registered, or the country they come from?

 

But if they do, then the appropriate tax department may well tax them on an assumption of the tips they earn. I believe that's how it happens in the UK - tips aren't simply tax-free earnings. So in some respects, it may be better for the crew that the exact amount of tips is known so they pay the correct tax rather than being taxed on an assumed amount, which in fact they may not have received.

[Tigrou]

I really don't like the idea of "auto tipping" a tip is based on the quality otherwise it is a service charge.

 

Effectively that is now what it is, and perhaps it would be better if they just called it that.

 

I would prefer the service charge to be included because ...

 

 

Actually the "putting the tip in someone's hand" is the only part I hate. I feel like I'm being condesending..........

 

... this is how I feel too. I wish everyone was paid a fair wage for their job and that no-one had to rely on tips to earn a decent living.

[hcat]

We initally favored the ability to do auto tipping as a convenience (& always add more for our cabin attendant & good service wherever it is given)

 

After reading these boards, I favor it as being necessary--many litlle birds out there--they go "cheap cheap cheap!" The cruise line should add the tips to the cruise cost & say gratuiites are now included in the fare--End of story.

 

all this work to remove tips...those staff members could be helping other guests!

[Cruise or Lose!]

If you can afford to cruise, you can afford to tip. I am SICK AND TIRED of people who have been on 20 or 30 cruises or who cruise around the world / to far-flung areas not tipping. Book a 7 day cruise, plan to tip for 7 days. Book a 100 day cruise, tough luck, you have to factor in 100 days of tipping. If that's too much money, don't cruise.

 

Remember, the crew have no choice in the matter either. How hard must it be to smile and be pleasant 24/7 for 6 months at a time, without once seeing your loved ones...

 

Compensate them adequately, not because the line doesn't, but because it is THE RIGHT THING TO DO (apologies for the yelling)

 

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Tigrou]

A waiter makes 35 pounds + Tips per month. We the passengers pay their wages -- that's how this game is played. Not the same system in the USA, and not the same system in the UK.

 

Exactly!

I don't like the way it's played, I think everyone should be paid a fair rate for what they do, but unfortunately that isn't how it is.

If I want to play the game, ie go on a cruise, then I have to play by the rules however flawed I think they are.

I view the recommended tipping rates as a service charge, then give tips for any 'over and above' service I receive.

[Tigrou]

The easiest way around this is to include tips/gratuities, call them what you will in the cost of the cruise fare. To my mind, if they are forced upon you, they are no longer tips, they are service charges, and I do not like paying for a service I have not yet received.

 

But by paying for the cruise itself, you've paid for a service you haven't yet received! It's not like a hotel stay where you don't pay until you check out.

 

Yes, they are a service charge rather than a gratuity, to pay the crew's wages. What difference does it make whether they are included in the overall cruise fare and are therefore 'invisible' or shown separately so you know exactly what you're paying for?

[Tigrou]

I have sent a least 6 e mails and not received a single response. Good job their communication department don't rely on tips for good service ......

 

It's good to hear that I'm not the only one they ignore!

[Tigrou]

Maybe we have a different view on tipping in the UK to that in the US. We feel tipping is an acknowledgement of worthy service - not a means to supplement an employer's obligation to pay a decent salary. Whatever job somebody does, whether it be a doctor, policeman, teacher or waiter you would hope that person fulfills his/her duties to the best of his/her ability. In the case of the waiter, an acknowledgement of good service is tipping and, I would suggest, the better the service, the better the tip. It's a way of saying thank you. as you see fit. Tipping should be optional, not mandatory and stay as an acknowledgement of good service. Most of us (with the exception of those who "do a runner") are responsible enough to respect that.

 

But let's be honest about this, of the jobs you mention the only one you would dream of tipping in the UK is the waiter. Who tips their doctor or teacher, for goodness sake? And a policeman would not be allowed to accept a tip.

 

Really the only reason we tip waiters is because of their low wages, and because assumed tips are allowed to be taken into account by their employers when paying them, letting them get away with paying less than minimum wage.

[hansi]

Moeve did you actually READ the fine print in your brochure before you booked your cruise?? As it is it has always been in there that tips amounts are at your discretion.

 

How rude of you to tell a fellow member to look for another vacation if they do not agree with your opinion.

You may want to look again before telling others how things work.

 

Just for your guidance, the bellow is taken directly from the Celebrity website (perhaps Celebrity have it wrong?)......

 

"For your convenience, we will automatically add gratuities for your restaurant and stateroom services to your onboard Seapass account on a daily basis in the following amounts, which may be adjusted at your discretion."

 

 

 

 

Please note the very last word!

 

 

I thank you.

 

 

I rest my case m'Lord!

 

Thanks Gerry. What a rude man Moeve is!

[hansi]

I just spoke yesterday to a young waiter who called me from a port stop. Not naming either waiter or ship. During our conversation he stated, after I asked how auto tipping was working, that on the last cruise 400 people removed the auto tip. :eek: Maybe it needs to be made more difficult.

I wonder how many of those people did not tip at all. Just amazes and saddens me.

Anne

 

 

And why should it be made more difficult. If people want to tip personally, that is their choice, as it is mine.. I wonder why 400 people removed it? Could it be that people don't want to be told how much and whom to tip?

[woodofpine]

But by paying for the cruise itself, you've paid for a service you haven't yet received! It's not like a hotel stay where you don't pay until you check out.

 

Yes, they are a service charge rather than a gratuity, to pay the crew's wages. What difference does it make whether they are included in the overall cruise fare and are therefore 'invisible' or shown separately so you know exactly what you're paying for?

 

Thank you or the opportunity.

 

Cruise Line Accounting.

 

Revenue - Expenses = Earnings or income. Earnings as a ratio of income equals 'profitablity' or profit margin. The 'profitability' of a company directly impacts its costs of borrowing (ship construction financing etc.) with lenders and otherwise impacts its costs of raising capital.

 

By having the crew compensated solely (almost) via tips/gratuities/separate service charge (pick your term), the cruise line keeps a VERY large component of operating expense 'off the books' as 'booked expense'.

 

By keeping a couple hundred million $$ in staff compensation off the books as payroll expense, the line increases its income as a ratio of revenue, the profit margins. It thereby reduces borrowing expense and other capitalization costs. If one adds a fixed equal amount to fares (revenue) equalling tips and an equal amount to expense, then both revenue and expense is increased - but not income. Profit margin declines, borrowing costs increase etc.

 

The tip business model allows the line to keep a great deal of 'expense' down which is collateral to crew compensation. This allows the line to offer fares that are much cheaper than 'gratuity inclusive' (crew payrolled) cruise lines which must increase fares far beyond the amount of your tip in order to reach comparable profit margins. Evidence: Virtually all gratuity inclusive lines have SUBSTANTIALLY higher fares than the mass market lines.

 

Conclusion: Your base fare does NOT (fiscally) include crew service in product cost-price. Additionally, in this business model, the crew is fundamentally 'subsidizing' your comparatively low fare (compared to a gratuity inclusive line which charges 50% or higher base fare) - until you tip them as suggested.

 

All the clucking about, "They chose this employment." "The line should pay them." "We've paid our fare (which should include this)." constitutes intentional or unintentional ignorance of the business model. It is wholly self-serving, not well thought out, and not well intentioned concerning the business model (the terms of which are reasonably well explained from the onset). The claim that service wasn't 'extraordinary' is vaporous, self-begetting, and irrelevant; that is not the standard. Pay the suggested base tip for basic essential service; tip above and beyond for above and beyond. If you disagree with the product, don't patronize it.

 

If enough passengers stiff - because they can not be trusted with an honor system - then quality staff will go elsewhere and the stiffers will get the service they deserve and the product will decline for all.

[chrisandlynne]

But let's be honest about this, of the jobs you mention the only one you would dream of tipping in the UK is the waiter. Who tips their doctor or teacher, for goodness sake? And a policeman would not be allowed to accept a tip.

 

Really the only reason we tip waiters is because of their low wages, and because assumed tips are allowed to be taken into account by their employers when paying them, letting them get away with paying less than minimum wage.

 

No it's not. And you're splitting hairs. It's an acknowledgement of good service - a thank you. Are you really saying that if you get very poor service you still tip just because that person is earning poor wages?

 

Hansi writes - "And why should it be made more difficult. If people want to tip personally, that is their choice, as it is mine.. I wonder why 400 people removed it? Could it be that people don't want to be told how much and whom to tip?"

Well said, Hansi.

 

So, judging by all the diverse arguments expressed on this thread, does that not reinforce the very view that the choice should be maintained rather than making it mandatory? And, we're missing the point that X just imposed it on our cruise with no option or consultation. Then, made it very awkward and protracted to let us make an alternative choice. However, it now appears they may have relented slightly. Would that possibly be down to customer resistance?? I think this thread has run its coarse.

[woodofpine]

Tip as suggested - or go elsewhere (to the much higher cost inclusive competitor).

 

Consulting the cheap on their 'choice' to defeat the business model defeats the purpose and is futile... as posts here show.

[Len3]

IMHO, tips should be left up to the passengers. Sometimes wait service, cabin service, etc. can be good or bad - leave the tipping up to the cruisers.

[ISABELLA]

If you want to be fair, tipping should be based on the cost of your cruise. People who pay more for their cabin get better service like premium tables in the dining room, better quality linens etc. But the auto tipping policy has everyone paying the same tips no matter what type of cabin you have.

 

I am not new to this board. I have read the threads for years. I just have never joined and posted.:)

 

Am I missing something? What cruiseline you sailed with? Must be old Cunard - QE2 or QM, where everyone dines in different classes based on your cabin catagory. Right?

In 40 cruises I have never heard that the more you pay for your cruise the better service you get, there for you tip more............??? The only difference you get by paying more for your cruise is accomondations - having a suite for example. But you still eat at the same tables with the same linens with the same silverware, served by the same waiter as someone who have inside cabin.

[luvtocruuz]

Am I missing something? What cruiseline you sailed with? Must be old Cunard - QE2 or QM, where everyone dines in different classes based on your cabin catagory. Right?

In 40 cruises I have never heard that the more you pay for your cruise the better service you get, there for you tip more............??? The only difference you get by paying more for your cruise is accomondations - having a suite for example. But you still eat at the same tables with the same linens with the same silverware, served by the same waiter as someone who have inside cabin.

 

I have never sailed on Cunard. I have 21 cruises on Celebrity with 32 cruises overall. As an elite member I never had an invitation to the Captain's table until our first balcony cabin on Solstice in December. The other invitees to the Captain's table that night were in suites or concierge class. You can't tell me that the people in better cabins do not get the better tables in the dining room with the better waiters and service. I experienced it. As I said before, the liquor and spa services are charged gratuities based on cost of the service. Therefore, why is Celebrity not using the same formula for their automatic charging of the gratuities?

[The_Big_M]

Then, made it very awkward and protracted to let us make an alternative choice. However, it now appears they may have relented slightly. Would that possibly be down to customer resistance??

 

Or would it be due to the inherent legalities already pointed out?? If it is compulsory then it becomes revenue and dispersed as wages accordingly. That has significant flow-on effects.

 

In the meantime employees are getting stiffed their wages by passengers choosing to exploit this loophole.

[seasearider]

I've been on to Celebrity since the new policy has been implemented. It doesn't bother me as we always follow the guidelines and then some. If you make the change in the first 24 to 36 hours there should not be a hassle. To be honest, I can't image spending 1 minute let alone days bickering with the desk when I'm on vacation. The tips/service charges are such a small perectage of the overall cruise package it's not worth fighting over the $1.25pp per day misc. charge.

[seasearider]

I have never sailed on Cunard. I have 21 cruises on Celebrity with 32 cruises overall. As an elite member I never had an invitation to the Captain's table until our first balcony cabin on Solstice in December. The other invitees to the Captain's table that night were in suites or concierge class. You can't tell me that the people in better cabins do not get the better tables in the dining room with the better waiters and service. I experienced it. As I said before, the liquor and spa services are charged gratuities based on cost of the service. Therefore, why is Celebrity not using the same formula for their automatic charging of the gratuities?

 

Sorry, we're elite members also and stayed in a suite on our last cruise. Our table placement was truly awful.

[Shirley and Les]

I have never sailed on Cunard. I have 21 cruises on Celebrity with 32 cruises overall. As an elite member I never had an invitation to the Captain's table until our first balcony cabin on Solstice in December. The other invitees to the Captain's table that night were in suites or concierge class. You can't tell me that the people in better cabins do not get the better tables in the dining room with the better waiters and service. I experienced it. As I said before, the liquor and spa services are charged gratuities based on cost of the service. Therefore, why is Celebrity not using the same formula for their automatic charging of the gratuities?

Your viewpoint about class of cabin is somewhat reflected in the autotip structure suggested by Celebrity. Suite and CC passengers are requested to pay more in tips. The following is from the FAQ section of the Celebrity website.

These service gratuities are based on the following recommended amounts:

Restaurant Service*Per Person Per Day

Waiter$3.65

Assistant Waiter$2.10

Dining Room Management$1.00

Stateroom Service*Per Person Per Day

Butler (Suites Only)$3.50

Stateroom Service $3.50 ($4.00 for Concierge Class and AquaClass staterooms)

Alternative Service*Other Service Personnel$1.25

Based on our experience with Celebrity, table assignments don't reflect cabin categories. On the rare chance when cabin selection was discussed at the dinner table, I remember it to be a mixtures of inside, oceanview balcony and suite at one table.

I guess if they handed a different menu with better choices to the suite passengers in the main dining room, I might be able to agree with your viewpoint.

[Aydindril Castle]

I was surprised to read that mardon had removed all her tips after all the chastizing of people who even mentioned the fact that they prefer to tip in cash than use auto tip. I guess she assumed they wanted to skip on the tip. Were you trying to get out of tipping? Hmmm Well they do give an envelope for that $1.25 pp per day "alternative services" I guess you may have missed that envelope. It's very easy to critisize others and tell them to stay home if they dont want to tip but in essence you did exactly the same thing. You saved $25 If you truly felt bad you would have found a way to see that the money got to the proper people or reinstated all the auto tips.

kahlan

[Amerie]

Hello All,

We have recently returned from the Millennium Australia/New Zealand cruise which sailed on Feb 1st. On the second night we were left a piece of paper in our cabin saying that auto-tipping had now been enforced for the cruise - like it or not. We didn't, so we went to Guest Relations to ask it be removed. At first, we were given the blank "It's company policy" response but on the circular it said we could adjust the daily amount (I think it was about 28 dollars) so we said yes, we would like to adjust it to zero! We will go back to the original tipping method where it is optional rather than mandatory. After several refusals we were told the Guest Relations Manager would ring us. 6 DAYS LATER, 10 REMINDERS and several pointed discussions about lack of notice and brochure terms and conditions (optional tipping is stated) she left a very curt message on our stateroom 'phone to say it had been agreed to remove auto-tipping from our bill. We found out later that advice had to be sought from HQ in Miami.

So, there you are - persistence paid off plus logical argument. And, we're glad it did because frankly, some of the service was not worth tipping.

Now, is this a way of appeasing the staff by X for a lack of a decent salary increase from them so they are offering a (virtually) guaranteed full tipping quota? Celebrity is cutting back, so it adds up.

Hope this helps.

 

Do you understand that the waiters and stateroom attendants only receive a $50.00 stipend per month from the Cruise Line, and that the REST of their wages comes from tips? This is NOT the same discussion as whether you should leave a tip for the waitress who brings you an ale in the pub. If you do not contribute the gratuities at the suggested levels, then you are, without question, stiffing the people who have worked so hard to provide you with a great vacation. This is a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion. For all of the work that they have done for you and your cabinmate(s) they have received 5 cents from the cruise line. The rest of the pay for the work that they have done for YOU comes from your gratuities.

 

Several people have gone to some lengths to explain the business model used by Celebrity, Royal Caribbean and others. If you don't want to take the time to review this business model and understand it, please take the word of the vast majority of North American cruisers that DO understand what is happening, and pay the suggested amounts.

 

It is unfortunate that we continue to call the amounts we pay to the waiters and stateroom attendants "tips". It certainly does add to the confusion. It should be called a service charge and it should be mandatory, except in situations of extreme negligence, and I can't even imagine what such a scenario would look like.

 

If you took your car to a mechanic, and the price on your invoice was broken into "parts" and "labour", would you think that you could drive away without paying the "labour" portion? Of course not, because you know that a worker is worthy of his hire, and you would not think of not paying for that work.

 

Whether you understand the situation or not, when you refuse to pay the suggested amount of gratuities, you are leaving your waiter and stateroom attendant unpaid for the work they have done for you. It's not a matter of a little "something extra" on top of their wages to show that you appreciated their work. They are NOT being paid wages for the work they did for you. To repeat, they get $50.00 per month PLUS whatever they get for tips. The Royal Caribbean contract is available on the web. Perhaps someone will post it here.

 

Please do not insist on thinking of these amounts as "tips". It is not the fault of the staff that the system is the way it is, and that your contribution to the payment of their wages is called by the unfortunate label of "gratuities". If you want to fight with Celebrity over semantics, or how the system is currently structured, please feel free to do so, but in the meantime, please pay your suggested gratuities.

.

[Amerie]

I wrote this on an earlier "tipping" thread, but I am going to repeat it here because it contains some information from a former Celebrity Food and Beverage manager....

 

I .....fully support the move to auto-tipping, to ensure that the staff are receiving adequate remuneration for the wonderful service that they provide.

 

Like many others, I too wish that the tips could be included in the fare as part of the cost of sailing, and I don't for a minute believe that this format would be a deterrent to the terrific level of on-board service that Celebrity has been known for. However, I understand the issues that prevent such a pricing structure at present. (These factors have been identified on these tipping threads many times.)

 

In the meantime, I applaud Celebrity for protecting their staff from those cruisers that find all kinds of reasons to save money by shorting the gratuities paid to the staff. I have never, ever had service on Celebrity that was less than acceptable, and 95% of the time service has greatly exceeded "an acceptable standard" everywhere on the ship.

 

I just wonder why people who are SO agitated by the $1.25/pp charge, or the gratuity for the Assistant Maitre 'd, think that Celebrity is incapable of determining which of their staff should be salaried and which should share in the gratuities, and what the level of those gratuities should reasonably be. This level of financial management is well within their scope and expertise, and is nothing that I need to worry about. The list of suggested gratuities seems reasonable to me, and I am fine with auto-tipping, and providing extra cash enclosed in thank you cards to any staff that have provided me with extra service.

 

Last year, one of Summit's former Food and Beverage Managers (rdelpappa) posted on these threads, and gave us some great information about how things are done on Celebrity ships.

 

For instance, he told us that while "waiters [from the dining room] would rotate weekly working in the Buffet during breakfast and lunch"..."other F&B Staff had higher monthly stipends ($700/month) such as the Snack Stewards - also known as Buffet Attendants (they wore the Green Aprons/Green Hats in the Buffet). These individuals had a goal of working hard and getting positive guest comments, as well as good Management Evaluations in order to move on to the next step, which is Asst Waiter..."

 

So, Celebrity provides additional compensation to those service personel who do not share fully in the gratuities, and some of the staff that we never come in contact with are on salary only. The formula for salaries vs. stipends plus gratuities is decided by Celebrity, based on information that we passengers just do not have. But one thing is abundantly clear....given the current pricing stucture of "low fares supplemented by gratuities", we, as passengers, are letting the service staff down when we do not contribute the gratuities at the levels suggested. Most of us who frequent these boards are now aware that tips provide 98% of the salary for waiters and cabin stewards. This % is based on the stipend of $50 per month plus tips providing monthly compensation of approximately $3000 for waiters and cabin stewards.

 

The following information comes from former Summit Food and Beverage Manager rdelpappa:

 

"My best guess from working with them and having personal conversations with them during off time is that they make about $3000/month.

 

Waiter's have a monthly stipend of approximately $50. They get paid bi-monthly in USD (cash), and then can have the cash direct-deposited into their bank accounts, or wired to specific persons.

 

Celebrity pays for all hotel/travel arrangements to and from the ship (some cruise lines do not). Prior to be hired, the individual must pay for their Pre-Employment Physical, which ran me about $200 (in my home city of Miami).

 

Food and accommodation is included. I am not too sure about their uniforms.

 

As far as expenditures once on board, it was virtually nil. Internet Cards were $30, pre-paid, and gave us a lot of time - something to the effect of $0.08/minute... the $20 card gave you $0.12/minute... Calling Cards were $10... not sure how much time would be on it as I had my Blackberry Pearl (AT&T) with me on board...

 

A drink at the crew bar would run $1/beer and $2/mixed drink. Bottled water ran $1, as well as Red Bulls, Gatorade, and snacks."

 

"As far as hours are concerned, Celebrity has a ZERO TOLERANCE Policy on overtime hours - this included line staff and Management.... even though we ALL had a monthly Salary, we ALL (Captain on down to Dishwasher) had to keep Time Cards. Time Cards would be checked daily to ensure we were not working more than 12 hours/day..."

 

Please remember that the estimated remuneration of $3000 per month is for 30 x 12 hour days (or 84 hours per week). It also does not take into account what is lost when passengers do not contribute the suggested gratuities. And the figure of $3000 per month is not a net figure, as can be determined by rdelpappa's comments. How much money would they have to pay YOU to leave your family for 9 months of the year?

 

You can try to justify holding back tips all you want to, but unless you really have had very bad service, please face the fact that when you do not tip someone who is on the suggested list, you are depriving that person of part of their fair wages, whether you see that person frequently or not. If you genuinely do not understand how gratuities factor into the system of remuneration, please ask your questions on this board. There are many people who will be able to help you understand the important role played by those suggested gratuities.

 

If you really need to hand something directly to the people who have taken such good care of you, please think about writing a note of gratitude and include it with an a "Attention to Detail" card that can be obtained from Guest Relations". Of course, a little extra cash is never amiss, if you feel that the service warranted it. And don't forget to fill out the Guest Questionnaires that are provided at the end of the cruise. They are taken very seriously by Celebrity.

 

From rdelpappa:

 

"The Attention to Detail cards are also a great resource to commend good and exceptional service, or even "little" things that a crew member may do... these cards are internally on the ship and do not go to shore side offices. The Guest Questionnaire (Comment Cards) are sealed and taken to the Miami Office, scanned via a Scan-tron Machine to generate the scores, and then any additional comments are hand typed via the Data Entry staff. A report is then generated and sent to each respective department on board the ship.

[Gerrym]

If you do not contribute the gratuities at the suggested levels, then you are, without question, stiffing the people who have worked so hard to provide you with a great vacation. This is a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion..

 

 

 

Why do people feel the need to voice their opinion and then wrap it up as fact as if to give it more credibility.

 

The Celeberity website informs us that tips amounts are discretionary. I will take my lead from Celebrity, not from one of their passengers who does not really understand the concept of 'discretionary'.

 

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

[pamkev]

I have a question. If you pre paid you tips though your agent which the agent says is required and you have to cancel the cruise after final payment what happens to the tips? I have asked several trip insurance company and this will not be cover as in their eyes tips are options and not required. Their answer not mine Celebrity is no help with this question. So where do the tips go? Celebrity Corp. or who they were meant to go do that I will not see at all.