HAL strategy wrong? Go upmarket, better than going down market?

[bepsf]

Cabins -

More comfortable beds

Robes in all cabins

Towel animals

Stewards work in pairs (more effective and can almost always find one of them)

 

Food -

Tastier, more flavorful food (food in 2002 tended to be light on taste & seasoning)

 

MDR -

Open seating - reservation system works well & just showing up works well too

 

Lido -

Dinner has same items or nearly same items as MDR

Meal time range has expanded a bit, but not too much

More use of stations; no more "cafeteria line"

Trays are gone - no more carrying heavy loaded try

 

Other -

Addition of Tamarind on Signature class ships

Addition of the Exploration Cafe

 

Dress code

Updated for the way most people dress & wish to dress

Informal, not understood by most, is long gone

Casual updated to what most people consider nice casual

 

Check-in, shore excursion booking etc.

Online check-in

Check-in a pier very quick

Shore excursions can be booked online

Various items can be pre-purchased online

HAL's website has greatly improved

 

Tipping

Service charge included on bill

 

CD & staff

Everyone has titles & assigned jobs -more effective

Cooking classes and demos

Computer instruction

 

Lifeboat drill

Still at station as it should be, but without the cumbersome jackets

 

Suites (no, I'm not a suite person)

Neptune lounge

Concierge

More suites and suite types on newer ships

Double Mariner days for suites

 

Smoking

Greatly reduced smoking locations

More consistent policies ship to ship

 

Kids' programs

Dedicated locations for children and teen programs

 

And many more improvements.

 

Other than the beds/bedding, Elemis bath products, flatscreen TV's, the Neptune Lounges/Concierges & Explorations Cafes and the revised Bar Menus from a few years back, I could do without the other "improvements"...

...particularly two stewards assigned to 30-some-odd staterooms when it used to be one steward for 10-12;

...or the Master Disaster Dinner;

...the largely unused Oasis/Loft when there was already perfectly lovely Sky Room up there for the few kids aboard;

...or the "Showlounge at Sea" which is merely a rearrangement of furniture and more inconvenient show hours when the problem has always been Bill Prince's craptastic choice of shows and talent(less).

[DizzyDallasDi]

I have not read all the posts on this thread but of the ones I have read they reveal complaints and dissatsfaction with the current HAL product. If that's the case, why do you continue to spend your vacation dollars on a product that has, in your opinion, deteriorated and gives you less satisfaction? Makes no sense to me. :confused:

 

Let's see now, what's the definition of insanity.....doing something over and over again and expecting a different result.

Edited December 12, 2010 by DizzyDallasDi

[JeffCoud]

Those little towel animals give me the heebie jeebies---especially the monkey hanging from the ceiling as you step inside the cabin door:eek

 

I agree! Def can do without the towel animals. I say leave me more chocolate instead!!

[schoolinmy3]

So back on topic for this thread, personally I think HAL does an awesome job and will continue to cruise with them. As for the "low life's" the lower fares are attracting, life isn't a bubble and its not going to ruin my cruise. If anything I have a bigger problem with the snobby passengers that make rude remarks/looks to show their disapproval, or worse,demand things of the staff and treat them poorly.

 

I agree. I am not a person who expects to be, or even wants to be, waited on hand and foot. At Disney my husband and I (we treated ourselves to a trip without kids) were upgraded to the Club Level at the Contemporary due to a last minute cancellation. It was a beautiful experience, but I am just not used to people catering to my every whim and fancy. We were on the 14th floor but I kept sneaking down to the lobby with my refillable mug to get my own drink even though I had to walk past the concierge to do so! I tend to be easy to please and truly want to make the crew and staff's job as easy as possible. I especially feel bad for the front desk as they must hear nothing but complaints. I am sure no one is rushing to the front desk to gush over with compliments.

diane

[Jalex63]

There are many well thought out and intelligent responses to this thread and while I do not agree with all I do with most. Yes, they are mostly in the form of complaints, but I feel that the position that CCL has placed HAL in to must be the cause of this. While I have only cruised on HAL for the past four years I have witnessed enough change that it is slowly becoming a problem for me. It seems that service seems to get worse on each cruise. This is unfortunate because we do enjoy the spirit of the HAL ships as well as the size, etc. HAL ships actually still feel "nautical", which is more than I can say for the megas being sailed by many other lines. Food quality is still fairly good, but dining room service is bordering horrible and anyone can see that the number of dining staff has been reduced greatly in the past few years.

 

Actually I just returned from a not so great cruise on the Ryndam where the dining service was the worst I have yet experienced on a cruise ship going back 22 years. They also have done away with the traditional Baked alaska skit at the Captains dinner and come up with a totally hoaky "show Dinner" Most of the passengers I spoke with following the dinner agreed that it was just plain stupid. C'mon HAL, what are you thinking?

 

We have a HAL cruise arranged that departs from FLL in February that I would cancel were it not prepaid.

 

I do want to comment about the dress code aboard HAL ships. I worked for years wearing a suit and tie daily in business. I am now retired and as part of my retirement it is my desire to part from that former life totally. Therefore, I no longer pack a suit along on vacations. This is my decision and as a result I make my self scarce on formal nights, eating in the lido and avoiding the lower decks on those occaisions. While I see the total ridigity of Formal standards slowly be eaten away and expect that it will disappear in the near future, until it does I try to show respect for those who want to participate in such affairs. They certainly were delightful in my younger days, but not longer. I think it might be time to try a Celebrity ? I could afford to sail on one of the more luxureous ships like the Seaborn or Crystal, but find the passengers on those ships to be somewhat pretentious or just plain snobby. Not in my league.

[sapper1]

I agree! Def can do without the towel animals. I say leave me more chocolate instead!!

Super idea. I say let's start a petition. I know Ruth would sign it. :)

[Topsham]

I am sure he has better things to do with his time and I would not miss the little critters.

 

 

I agree 1000%. Total waste of time, money and effort. Say 1,000 towels per night per ship.... 15 ships, 365 days...... 4,475,000 pieces per year.

 

Fine when there are children living in the cabin but otherwise... NO!

 

Stephen

[Jade13]

There are many well thought out and intelligent responses to this thread and while I do not agree with all I do with most. Yes, they are mostly in the form of complaints, but I feel that the position that CCL has placed HAL in to must be the cause of this. While I have only cruised on HAL for the past four years I have witnessed enough change that it is slowly becoming a problem for me. It seems that service seems to get worse on each cruise. This is unfortunate because we do enjoy the spirit of the HAL ships as well as the size, etc. HAL ships actually still feel "nautical", which is more than I can say for the megas being sailed by many other lines. Food quality is still fairly good, but dining room service is bordering horrible and anyone can see that the number of dining staff has been reduced greatly in the past few years.

 

Actually I just returned from a not so great cruise on the Ryndam where the dining service was the worst I have yet experienced on a cruise ship going back 22 years. They also have done away with the traditional Baked alaska skit at the Captains dinner and come up with a totally hoaky "show Dinner" Most of the passengers I spoke with following the dinner agreed that it was just plain stupid. C'mon HAL, what are you thinking?

 

We have a HAL cruise arranged that departs from FLL in February that I would cancel were it not prepaid.

 

I do want to comment about the dress code aboard HAL ships. I worked for years wearing a suit and tie daily in business. I am now retired and as part of my retirement it is my desire to part from that former life totally. Therefore, I no longer pack a suit along on vacations. This is my decision and as a result I make my self scarce on formal nights, eating in the lido and avoiding the lower decks on those occaisions. While I see the total ridigity of Formal standards slowly be eaten away and expect that it will disappear in the near future, until it does I try to show respect for those who want to participate in such affairs. They certainly were delightful in my younger days, but not longer. I think it might be time to try a Celebrity ? I could afford to sail on one of the more luxureous ships like the Seaborn or Crystal, but find the passengers on those ships to be somewhat pretentious or just plain snobby. Not in my league.

 

I think you would like Azamara, which had the best service we have had a sea (better than SilverSea), and is smart casual all the time.

 

We saw a decline in HAL recently on our Maasdam cruise, but have the same ship booked again in 2011 after the retrofit. HAL had declined on that cruise compared to our two Celebrity cruises this year, as well as Azamara, which all went up in service and food and exceeded our expectations. We were also on SilverSea and Swan Hellenic last year. We have two HAL cruises booked mostly because of itinerary, but if we do not see improvement we will spend more time on other ships. We found a lack of attention to detail on this last cruise, as well as decline in the food.

 

Btw, we like the towel animals and were surprised to find them on Celebrity Eclipse last month.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Jade13

[Topsham]

I have not read all the posts on this thread but of the ones I have read they reveal complaints and dissatsfaction with the current HAL product. If that's the case, why do you continue to spend your vacation dollars on a product that has, in your opinion, deteriorated and gives you less satisfaction? Makes no sense to me. :confused:

 

Let's see now, what's the definition of insanity.....doing something over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

 

 

The little things that some of us find annoying or pointless are found on just about every other cruise line as well.... but not all.

[sapper1]

I agree 1000%. Total waste of time, money and effort. Say 1,000 towels per night per ship.... 15 ships, 365 days...... 4,475,000 pieces per year.

 

Fine when there are children living in the cabin but otherwise... NO!

 

Stephen

That certainly translates to a lot of man hours, doesn't it?

 

On another note, my husband and I enjoyed our little chat with you in the restaurant in Hamilton last June. It is always nice to be able to put a face to posters on this board. Since I saw your painting of the Jervis Bay, you always come to mind whenever I drive by the Jervis Bay Legion here in Saint John.

[RuthC]

Super idea. I say let's start a petition. I know Ruth would sign it. :)

In her best John Hancock script! :D

Edited December 12, 2010 by RuthC

[HappyInVan]

Thanks for the details. We have been on both SilverSea and Azamara. Azamara was the best cruise ship experience we have ever had and so we are going back on the Quest next year.

 

Thanks for the tip. I will be looking at Azamara too! :)

[Hlitner]

What an interesting thread. We do agree that HA is one of the mass-market lines and any reference to "Premium" is only in the minds of the marketing crowd and some "elitests." In the past 6 months we have cruises on HA, Princess, Cunard and Celebrity and loved each cruise. These are all mass market lines although Cunard does try hard to present themselves as something better than mass market with gimmicks like a strict dress code. As to Azamara, we love this line along with its old Renaissance vessels (we also favor the Prinsendam for its size). For those that want a real "Premium" experience it is sure out there at prices around $1000 per passenger day.

 

Hank

[TahoeTraveler]

I have not read all the posts on this thread but of the ones I have read they reveal complaints and dissatsfaction with the current HAL product. If that's the case, why do you continue to spend your vacation dollars on a product that has, in your opinion, deteriorated and gives you less satisfaction? Makes no sense to me. :confused:

 

Let's see now, what's the definition of insanity.....doing something over and over again and expecting a different result.

Perhaps you should read all the posts on this thread. If you did, you would realize that the "complaints" and "dissatisfaction" folks are the ones seriously considering booking (or in our case, HAVE) booked another cruise line. That is the whole point of this thread...has HAL deteriorated to the point of looking to one of the luxury lines instead. For some of us, the answer is a definite "YES!" For others, no, they are willing to put up with the lesser service, food, etc, to cruise with a line that in their minds adheres to tradition. Either way, we have all made our decisions, and hopefully are happy with them. But until you read all the posts, please do not impose your opinions on the rest of us.

[TahoeTraveler]

What an interesting thread. We do agree that HA is one of the mass-market lines and any reference to "Premium" is only in the minds of the marketing crowd and some "elitests." In the past 6 months we have cruises on HA, Princess, Cunard and Celebrity and loved each cruise. These are all mass market lines although Cunard does try hard to present themselves as something better than mass market with gimmicks like a strict dress code. As to Azamara, we love this line along with its old Renaissance vessels (we also favor the Prinsendam for its size). For those that want a real "Premium" experience it is sure out there at prices around $1000 per passenger day.

 

Hank

Sorry, got my January 2011 Regent cruise at $650 per person per day, not including the free wine, booze, sodas, water, shore excursions, tips, butler service for my penthouse suite, etc. This is on a ship that is similar to the Renaissance brand, same smoking policy and size of ship (700 passengers). Please explain where the $1,000 per passenger per day comes from?????

[DizzyDallasDi]

Perhaps you should read all the posts on this thread. If you did, you would realize that the "complaints" and "dissatisfaction" folks are the ones seriously considering booking (or in our case, HAVE) booked another cruise line. That is the whole point of this thread...has HAL deteriorated to the point of looking to one of the luxury lines instead. For some of us, the answer is a definite "YES!" For others, no, they are willing to put up with the lesser service, food, etc, to cruise with a line that in their minds adheres to tradition. Either way, we have all made our decisions, and hopefully are happy with them. But until you read all the posts, please do not impose your opinions on the rest of us.

 

Excuse me but this is an internet message board and I have as much a right to "impose" my opinion here as anyone else. And, it is not a requirement that all posts must be read before doing so. :confused:

[snorkler8]

please do not impose your opinions on the rest of us.

 

That is what Cruise Critic is all about!! We all have our opinions and I for one enjoy hearing a variety of opinions...then I make up my mind as to what I agree or disagree about. Simple, nothing to be offended about.

[Tamaracboy]

Super idea. I say let's start a petition. I know Ruth would sign it. :)

 

AND, I am in line right behind Ruth, our Chocolate Cheerleader ! ;) ;)

 

r.

[iancal]

Like others have said, HAL has a challenge. They are clearly a mass market cruise line.

 

HAL cannot move up the chain unless because they have too many ships, many of which are either too large or too old, and too many berths in the fleet. There is probably not the demand for so many upscale berths. Also, the pricing would have to be right or the on board environment improved. Why go on a tarted up HAL when one could go on a Regent or Crystal for example, pay a little more, and get the real thing???

[Jade13]

HAL is a mass market cruise line. There apparently is a staffing issue (number of stewards, etc.) but HAL may not be able to add more with some of the prices (mostly Caribbean) in which they are selling these cruises.

 

One thing I have noticed about HAL, and have not noticed as much on other cruise lines, is the widely differing prices/per diems on some of the itineraries. As one example, the Maasdam Voyage of the Vikings is just about sold out ("Call for Availability") next July/August. Those prices were always high. What I mean by high is $300.00 per person per diem, and without a balcony (over $500.00 per person per diem in a Suite).

Edited December 13, 2010 by Jade13

[Alcarondas]

One thing I have noticed about HAL, and have not noticed as much on other cruise lines, is the widely differing prices/per diems on some of the itineraries.

 

You're not alone. It's really only the Caribbean and MexiRiv cruises that get the rock-bottom $ treatment.

 

Your observation about Voyage of the Vikings is spot-on. They've been running this since (iirc) 2000; it's always been expensive and always seems to sell out.

 

Since we're now in the heart of the (American) winter season, and consequently the el-cheapo Carib/Mexico cruise season, it's not illogical that more complaints about perceived slippage in service and product would surface now as the Line cuts back to allow those low fares. I wonder if we'll still be having this conversation next summer, when the European season is in full swing?

[HappyInVan]

It's really only the Caribbean and MexiRiv cruises that get the rock-bottom $ treatment...

 

Since we're now in the heart of the (American) winter season, and consequently the el-cheapo Carib/Mexico cruise season, it's not illogical that more complaints about perceived slippage in service and product would surface now as the Line cuts back to allow those low fares. I wonder if we'll still be having this conversation next summer, when the European season is in full swing?

 

 

Hang on! It's not just the Riveria and Caribbean cruises that are cheap. The popular Circle Hawaii cruise for March is just $120 per nite OV, and all categories are still available. That's the judgment of the market about where HAL belongs.

 

 

http://www.hollandamerica.com/find-cruise-vacation/CruiseDetails.action?destCode=H&flexibleMonths=false&noOfFlexibleMonths=1&pageNumber=1&voyageCode=X121

 

 

Less complaints in summer? Depends on whether there are leaks, odor and malfunctioning a/c; and the sell price of the cruise.

 

 

The 12D Mediterranean Empires (May) is still available for all categories, and listed as $180 per nite OV.

[TahoeTraveler]

You're not alone. It's really only the Caribbean and MexiRiv cruises that get the rock-bottom $ treatment.

 

Your observation about Voyage of the Vikings is spot-on. They've been running this since (iirc) 2000; it's always been expensive and always seems to sell out.

 

Since we're now in the heart of the (American) winter season, and consequently the el-cheapo Carib/Mexico cruise season, it's not illogical that more complaints about perceived slippage in service and product would surface now as the Line cuts back to allow those low fares. I wonder if we'll still be having this conversation next summer, when the European season is in full swing?

Our first cruise with HAL was one of those so-called el-cheapo Mexico cruises, four years ago (it actually cost us twice as much back then as they are charging now for the same cabin). It was the best by far, in regards to food and service. The next one was our Panama Canal cruise, which was good, but we could see some of the "slippage" starting. Our last cruise was an amazingly expensive European one...and it was by far the worst. One of our friends onboard even later told us that his HAL buisiness counterpart said they had "many complaints." So no, I don't believe it has to do with the season or the itinerary or even the price.

[Alcarondas]

Less complaints in summer? Depends on whether there are leaks, odor and malfunctioning a/c; and the sell price of the cruise.

 

Is there any price at which these problems would be acceptable?

 

The 12D Mediterranean Empires (May) is still available for all categories, and listed as $180 per nite OV.

 

I think the per-diem figures are somewhat misleading. I don't know of any major cruise line that lets passengers book by the day. You're paying for the entire voyage, so the total price is really the only number that matters.

 

$180/pp/day x 12 days x 2 passengers (double occupancy) = $4,320. Maybe that's not a lot for some people, but it's a deal-breaker for others.

 

The combination of generally longer itineraries and generally higher fares for European voyages means a total commitment that is beyond the means of many potential cruisers, myself included.

 

Our first cruise with HAL was one of those so-called el-cheapo Mexico cruises, four years ago (it actually cost us twice as much back then as they are charging now for the same cabin). It was the best by far, in regards to food and service. The next one was our Panama Canal cruise, which was good, but we could see some of the "slippage" starting. Our last cruise was an amazingly expensive European one...and it was by far the worst. One of our friends onboard even later told us that his HAL buisiness counterpart said they had "many complaints." So no, I don't believe it has to do with the season or the itinerary or even the price.

 

I've been cruising with HAL for almost 12 years, and I've noticed "slippage" in both directions - down and up. From trip to trip and ship to ship, some things will be better and others worse. It's the basic nature of human and mechanical fallibility. Overall though, the experience for me has been consistent enough, and affordable enough, to keep me coming back.

 

I'm not discounting the unfortunate experiences of others, and I'm not saying that the same will never happen to me.

 

Like they say: Ship happens.

[Hlitner]

Sorry, got my January 2011 Regent cruise at $650 per person per day, not including the free wine, booze, sodas, water, shore excursions, tips, butler service for my penthouse suite, etc. This is on a ship that is similar to the Renaissance brand, same smoking policy and size of ship (700 passengers). Please explain where the $1,000 per passenger per day comes from?????

 

Not sure we want to get into detailed price discussions, but prices do vary depending on the crusie and time of year. Regarding Regent, if you were to look at 5/11/11 Venice to MC cruise on the Mariner you might notice that the cheapest price is over $13000 per person for only 10 days. Of course its true that you can sometimes get the ultra premium lines for about $500 per day when demand is down. On the other hand, we just returned from a 12 day Celebrity Mercury cruise that cost us $1240 (total cost for two including taxes and port charges). When netted with our on board credits that cruise cost us $43 per passenger day for a high category outside cabin. And we would disagree about comparing Renaissance to Regent. Although we loved cruising on Ren, that line was not in the same class as Regent. But not really sure how to compare HA to Regent given that one can often cruise on HA for under $100 a day and even the more expensive cruises can be easily booked for no more than $150 per day.

 

Hank

Edited December 14, 2010 by Hlitner