HAL strategy wrong? Go upmarket, better than going down market?

[HappyInVan]

Is there any price at which these problems would be acceptable? ...

 

The combination of generally longer itineraries and generally higher fares for European voyages means a total commitment that is beyond the means of many potential cruisers, myself included.

 

 

Alcarondas,

 

 

I hear you!

 

 

Bear in mind that the perspective of HAL newbies and HAL regulars are different. HAL regulars have many good cruises behind. They can risk a bad cruise because they can average it out.

 

 

However, newbies have only zero to two cruises. They can't average. So, they are focused on the next cruise. Is it the right cruise?

 

 

 

 

On that note, here is a post by Hawaidan which I agree fully with. I didn't even have to cruise once with Regent!

 

 

“I have been sailing Regent/Radission for a bunch of years..I have no idea what " level" that puts me at and I dont care.

The most interesting thing I have discovered is that if you cruise in a Holland suite, and pay all the nickel and dime stuff from soda to special dining tips... the whole shooting match, then you are paying far more on Holland America for what it a second rate experience because of:

 

 

1. Service, space and style

Holland has 3 to 4 times the passeners as Regent... so service on Holland is actulay 1/3 to 1/4 what you experience on Regent.

I did the math and discovered that going up scale on Holland is pennywise and pound foolish. You end up paying almost as much or more on Holland America as you would on Regent. The suites on Holland are suites in name only... same economy decore and trappings with a little more space. REGENT IS CLASS FROM YOUR WET BAR TO FURNATURE TO BATH. I WAS NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE HOLLAND VERANDAS, SUITES... VERY POOR VALUE...VERY POOR. THEY APPEAL TO THE EGO OF BUDGET FOLKS TRYINT TO ACT RICH.. SORRY, I SEE THEM AS HYPE.

I FOUND FOR THE VALUE THE INSIDE J CABINS TO BE FAR FAR SUPERIOR TO THE MORE EXPENSIVE VERANDA AND SUITES, ( and I toured themall with a ships rep in detail) Let me put it it this way...if you own a 1988 chevy and want a 2011 Merceded S class.... dont waste you money on trying to fix the chevy up ....by the Merceded.. or Booking the Presidental Suite at

motel 6

Chasing after luxury on a non luxury ship is a fools folly..... Holland is nice but even at the top lever it dosent even come close to Regent. The suite passenger and the budget passenger all pay the same at the bar, for laundry, internet, liquor, wine ,tipping....etc, etc. So the value is to get the same service or lack of it for the best price...

 

 

2. Ambiance and Passengers. Holland draws on a total spectrum from the creme to the curds of society.

Regent, by virtue of its initial cost drawn from a more, shall I say a more cultured and well mannered group.

There are no buffet bunnies, crying babies, spoiled brats or gold chain lounge lizards on Regent. It is like a refined country club where you are a member and people still act as ladies and gentlemen. People on Regent tend to dress well and above the standard... They enjoy the style of the ship and its haute but not snooty atmosphere such as Crystal.

An aire of subtile and well mannserd consideration.. that you just wont find on non-luxury ships of any line

 

 

3. Quality of food, and cuisine

With Cordon Bleu of Paris on board... plus 4 other venues all outstanding.

Want a special banquet for 12... you design the menue, classic french with paired wines ( all premier cru).. no problem... no charge. Want lobster omlets with grilled baby lamb chops for breakfast every morning

no big deal. Order room service and the wine steward sents up several bottles of wines matched to you dinner.... Bar tenders who know you by name... and know your desires... leave your cabin and when you arrive at the lounge...there is a table set with your favorite libation.... llike how did they do that..... Personal service, non stuffy even the Captain mingels and might slap you on the back like an old friend..... Nothing like that on lesser ships... not even close.... The food was good on Holland... but not even remotely , even in the " pay restauraunts" can you get Regent like. The shore excursion desk can and does put together special custom tours you design And when you return to the gangway you are habded a glass of Cham and told " welcome home" ..... with 600 to 700 passengers it works.... not with 2000+

 

 

If Holland were a Hotel...be would be a Marriott Courtyard. Regent , Ritz carlton Crystal...Hyatt Carnival...Motel-6 NCL...Best western.

 

 

If you want value, culture, cuisine and space and well dressed and mannered folks then Regent

If you want an economy version are are willing to live with much less for the sake of the dollar then Holland will be good

If you love to drink till you pass out, singles bars, vegas buffets and like to stay up all night and think you are 18-20.. then carnival is your ticket

 

 

Thats my take....after 10 years on Regent since 1999.... and recently on Holland. Dont fool yourself.. one is not the other....no way nomatter how much you spend...it just aint."

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

Thanks HappyInVan for the methodology for comparison. Have not thought that much about it but makes sense. Have been on Regent/Radisson only once when they had the Paul Gaugin and thought the whole experience was outstanding.

[Pettifogger]

More than once, I've considered cruises on booze-included cruise lines, but they didn't seem to me to be advantageous for someone so old that his body no longer metabolizes large quantities of alcohol very well. It seemed to me that I'd be subsidizing those who were fortunate enough to be born after the great depression rather than during it, especially since many of them seem to be under the impression that an alcoholic beverage which costs twice as much must be twice as good, a proposition to which I don't think most depression babies would subscribe.

So not being young enough to benefit very much from a booze-included program, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with cruise lines on which drinking is not a competitive sport.

[Jade13]

 

 

 

2. Ambiance and Passengers. Holland draws on a total spectrum from the creme to the curds of society.

 

 

Curds of society, hmm....

[cwn]

".....So not being young enough to benefit very much from a booze-included program, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with cruise lines on which drinking is not a competitive sport."

 

We are just a few years younger than you, apparently, and have sailed on Seabourn and Silver Sea and this coming Jan Regent. We were on the Rotterdam in Sept for 31 days.

 

We like a cocktail and a glass of wine with dinner, but never have a big bar bill on the mass market lines and, of couse, no bill on high end lines.

 

Alcohol is really such a small part of the overall clasic experience on the high end cruise lines. Your comment above indicates you have never sailed on any. Yes, alcohol is included, but I have never seen anyone get as drunk as I have on the mass market lines where people are paying by the drink!

 

The whole experience on the lines like Seabourn is totally different....to being with you won't fine threads on CC about how to get smuggle alcohol on board...there have been comments about rum runners etc on the HAL board.

 

That is not to say we don't enjoy our cruises on HAL, Princess and even Carnival...we do, but we stick with the smaller ships, longer itineraries and sail during the school year if at all possible.

 

If you are paying the price for a suite on HAL, do yourself a favor and try one of the standard suites on the high end lines for the same itiinerary. The price is usually very simular, the experience is totally different in a great way.

[Pettifogger]

cwn:

Thank you for your measured response to my post.

My comment only suggested that I might be tempted to indulge more if it was all prepaid, as I'm afraid I do with cruise meals.

I've never seen anyone get drunk on HAL either, but then I don't consider it a mass market line.

[bepsf]

...from reading this, it would appear that some folks at Cunard aren't all that happy with reductions in services either:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1321506&page=2

[Hlitner]

Somebody brought up booze so there is another option rather than spending the big bucks on a premium line. Celebrity now offers an all-inclusive booze package (about $50 a day) which includes unlimited drinks. We wonder how long it will be until the other cruise lines follow suit. We were recently on a Celebrity Cruise (last week) and debated whether to get the booze package. After some calculations we decided we could not justify more than $100 per day (for a couple) for booze since we would seldom drink anywhere near that amount....especially on port days.

 

Hank

[Jade13]

cwn:

 

I've never seen anyone get drunk on HAL either, but then I don't consider it a mass market line.

 

HAL is a mass market line.

[Jade13]

Somebody brought up booze so there is another option rather than spending the big bucks on a premium line. Celebrity now offers an all-inclusive booze package (about $50 a day) which includes unlimited drinks. We wonder how long it will be until the other cruise lines follow suit. We were recently on a Celebrity Cruise (last week) and debated whether to get the booze package. After some calculations we decided we could not justify more than $100 per day (for a couple) for booze since we would seldom drink anywhere near that amount....especially on port days.

 

Hank

 

Azamara is following Celebrity. Their alcohol packages prices will be announced on Feb 1. Right now all the non-alcoholic is included around the ship and in the staterooms, including bottled water. They will have three packages, one beer, and a standard and a premium alcohol package.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Jade13

[Bill B]

...to the curds of society.

No whey... well, maybe the idiot who drops a stern anchor. ;)

[Jade13]

Is there any price at which these problems would be acceptable?

 

 

 

I think the per-diem figures are somewhat misleading. I don't know of any major cruise line that lets passengers book by the day. You're paying for the entire voyage, so the total price is really the only number that matters.

 

$180/pp/day x 12 days x 2 passengers (double occupancy) = $4,320. Maybe that's not a lot for some people, but it's a deal-breaker for others.

 

The combination of generally longer itineraries and generally higher fares for European voyages means a total commitment that is beyond the means of many potential cruisers, myself included.

 

Like they say: Ship happens.

 

The way to do a fair comparison is in fact comparing the per diem (daily rate). Otherwise you could be comparing a 7 night cruise to a 17 night cruise.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Jade13

[amunhbuu]

Azamara is following Celebrity. Their alcohol packages prices will be announced on Feb 1. Right now all the non-alcoholic is included around the ship and in the staterooms, including bottled water. They will have three packages, one beer, and a standard and a premium alcohol package.

 

Doesn't Azamara already have wine at lunch and dinner?

 

I don't believe that Celebrity has that at the moment.

Edited December 16, 2010 by amunhbuu
Added Celebrity info.

[Jade13]

Doesn't Azamara already have wine at lunch and dinner?

 

I don't believe that Celebrity has that at the moment.

 

Yes they do. It's a selected red and white each day (or each meal). That is probably the reason they are still contemplating what they will charge for the new packages that can be used at all other times. You can also now bring on unlimited wine and the corkage fee outside one's stateroom is $10.00 per bottle.

 

Azamara is (or was) running a Caribbean special with "Drinks on us", so I think giving one of the packages as part of the promotion.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Jade13

[Alcarondas]

The way to do a fair comparison is in fact comparing the per diem (daily rate). Otherwise you could be comparing a 7 night cruise to a 17 night cruise.

 

:confused:

 

If you're comparing equal-length cruises (e.g., 7 days vs. 7 days), the total for the cruise will give just as accurate a picture as the p/d. One's going to be more than the other. All other things being equal, the lower priced one (by either measure) would generally be seen as better. If certain things aren't equal, that would have to be accounted for somehow, but those inequities (cruise line, ship, itinerary, cabin location) often defy easy mathematical quantification. Ultimately, I think the best determiner is the bottom line - the total cost. That's what has to fit within the available budget.

 

Per diem might make sense when comparing trips of close, but unequal, length; e.g. 7 days vs. 9. But while a 9-day trip might boast a lower p/d and be a better value, if the total cost exceeds the traveller's budget and/or available time, it doesn't really matter much.

 

At any rate, the whole point of Happy's thread was to question whether HAL should be moving up-market or not. My argument (for whatever it's worth) has been that there is a valuable place in the modest-priced market for a line that offers a "traditional" and "classic" (but not necessarily "premium") cruise experience.

 

I'd be a very sad panda if the day ever came where the only cruises I could afford are on the ultra-modern, totally-un-ship-like floating amusement parks that are in vogue right now, endlessly plying the tired old FL-San Juan-St Thomas-St Maarten route.

 

As it stands, I can access HAL's more elegant and refined cruise style, and their more interesting itineraries. I wouldn't want that to change.

[Jade13]

[quote name=Alcarondas;27190179)

 

As it stands' date=' I can access HAL's more elegant and refined cruise style, and their more interesting itineraries. I wouldn't want that to change.

 

I can agree with that!

[VermeulT]

My argument (for whatever it's worth) has been that there is a valuable place in the modest-priced market for a line that offers a "traditional" and "classic" (but not necessarily "premium") cruise experience.....

As it stands, I can access HAL's more elegant and refined cruise style, and their more interesting itineraries. I wouldn't want that to change.

 

I think the point of the thread is that HAL's "more elegant and refined cruise style" isn't there anymore.... at least it's fading. And for that, I'm very sad.

[bepsf]

I think the point of the thread is that HAL's "more elegant and refined cruise style" isn't there anymore.... at least it's fading.

 

That's the problem in a nutshell.

[Alcarondas]

I think the point of the thread is that HAL's "more elegant and refined cruise style" isn't there anymore.... at least it's fading. And for that, I'm very sad.

 

Agreed in principle, but something's gotta give to keep the prices down where enough travellers can afford them. As bepsf noted, it's not just HAL. Seems Cunard is feeling the strain too.

 

And even if H-A's lustre is dimmed, it's still a far cry from zip-lines, water slides, surf pools, boardwalk carousels, onboard fast-food franchises, and hairy-chested belly flop contests.

 

I wrote a much longer post, but (wisely, I hope) decided to spare you all of any more of my turgid prose. It was nothing that hasn't already been discussed to death in this and other threads.

[startwin]

Agreed in principle, but something's gotta give to keep the prices down where enough travellers can afford them. As bepsf noted, it's not just HAL. Seems Cunard is feeling the strain too.

 

And even if H-A's lustre is dimmed, it's still a far cry from zip-lines, water slides, surf pools, boardwalk carousels, onboard fast-food franchises, and hairy-chested belly flop contests.

 

I wrote a much longer post, but (wisely, I hope) decided to spare you all of any more of my turgid prose. It was nothing that hasn't already been discussed to death in this and other threads.

 

That pretty much sums it up for me too.

[Petronillus]

And even if H-A's lustre is dimmed, it's still a far cry from zip-lines, water slides, surf pools, boardwalk carousels, onboard fast-food franchises, and hairy-chested belly flop contests.

 

It's taken me, off and on, four days to plow through this thread. While some posts give new meaning to the word quibble, by and large the reflections are perceptive and thoughtful.

 

As for myself, I appreciate what others miss as signs of decline but I am happy with HAL so long as three conditions continue to prevail:

1. Very limited and discreet use of the in-cabin loudspeaker.

2. Absence of musack in the elevators and elsewhere. I can always find a comfortable spot to sit and read or gaze without electronic intrusion.

3. On-board services of a chaplain.

 

I agree with those who appreciate HAL for its classic elegance, which is what I find distinguishes HAL from its competitors in the mass market. I experienced the Norway in its final years of tattered decline. I thought at the time that that was just the cost of non-stop usage and traffic. Then I experienced the continuous steps HAL takes to polish and varnish and replace.

 

I don't know what I would do with a butler. So, in the end, I am pleased to find that HAL's niche is my own.

[HappyInVan]

Agreed in principle, but

SOMETHING'S GOTTA GIVE TO KEEP THE PRICES DOWN WHERE ENOUGH TRAVELLERS CAN AFFORD THEM

. As bepsf noted, it's not just HAL. Seems Cunard is feeling the strain too.

 

 

 

Alcarondas,

 

 

There are enough people willing to pay for a premium experience. Regent has been building all-suite ships since 2001. Oceania (since 2003) and Silversea (since 1995) have been expanding.

 

 

The distribution of income in the States and Britain has widened. The top 10% have more money than ever before. The luxury hotel, resort, automobile and consumer goods industries have soared.

 

 

The problem is that HAL stayed with the value-premium positioning, and over expanded.

 

 

Some say that prices are half that of ten years ago. It's not because core customers have lost their ability to pay. In fact, affluent retirees have grown in numbers and spending power.

 

 

Seems to me that HAL has the wrong ships in the changing market.

 

 

There's pressure from the mass cruise companies with the WOW factor of their mega-ships, and they are able to do it at ever lower costs. HAL cannot maintain prices (and quality levels) in their small ships using their current business model.

 

 

What is HAL's response. They're building larger ships (but without retiring the older ships)! There's the overcapacity.

 

 

They're not willing to invest in a conversion to all-suites. They're not able to change to a two-class clientèle. So, they're trying to stay in the value-premium positioning.

 

 

However, their transition strategy is being crushed by the recession. In the face of general overcapacity, HAL has not been able to maintain a premium price over the mass cruisers.

 

 

In fact, HAL prices have dropped faster than the mass market lines. In some destinations, HAL prices is the same as Carnival. That is the verdict of the market about the value of HAL's newer ships.

 

 

The Carnival Liberty (2005) 7 Night Exotic Eastern Caribbean is priced at OV $100 per nite (March 5). The Eurodam (2007) 7-day Eastern Caribbean is priced at $100 per nite (March 5).

 

 

Oddly, the HAL veranda is cheaper than Carnival's?

 

 

You can't squeeze blood out of stone. HAL built its value reputation based on European officers and an Asian crew. Now, it can only cut costs by hiring less experienced people and reducing staff levels.

 

 

I'm sorry for being pessimistic. I wish it wasn't so.

[MightyQuinn]

I'm sorry for being pessimistic. I wish it wasn't so.

Well don't be pessimistic - be happy! :):)

 

If you want a true premium cruise experience, look beyond HAL to Oceania, Azamara, Regent or any of the all-inclusive luxury lines. Pay more & get more. If you want an upper mass market experience, stick with HAL. It's much easier to accept where HAL has landed in the marketplace than lament what could have been. Trust me, I've been there & back!

[Pettifogger]

To those of you who insist that HAL is a mass market cruise line, there is nothing I would like better than to have a choice between cruise lines rather than being stuck with just one. If you can name one or more other lines that provide what HAL does, at no greater cost, I shall be grateful, if not eternally, at least for the rest of my relatively limited life expectancy.

 

Presently, I'm stuck with HAL for the following reasons among others; they have a school that produces a stream of excellent dining room stewards who make a visit to the MDR gracious even when it's a little slow, they're courteous to those who bring a bottle or two of wine aboard and I've never seen them harass even a whisky smuggler, they offer a choice of fixed or open dining arrangements (if one insists) for those who prefer one or the other, they offer bar setups so one can get an inexpensive start on the evening's festivities, they have a few formal nights so my wife can dress up and pretend she married a good provider instead of me, there are no drunks "sharing" dirty stories with the world while waiting for the elevators late at night (for me after 9:30 pm), and perhaps most important of all, when the recession hit, they didn't choose to sail with empty cabins to maintain their prestige as a premium-priced line, but reduced their fares so that the available cabins could stay full of people like me for our mutual benefit.

 

I do not claim to be especially well informed about the cruise business and there may be one or more other cruise lines which do all of the same things or even more at no greater cost. If you know of any, please let me and others like me know, so we can have a greater choice of ships, dates, itineraries, etc.

[TahoeTraveler]

To those of you who insist that HAL is a mass market cruise line, there is nothing I would like better than to have a choice between cruise lines rather than being stuck with just one. If you can name one or more other lines that provide what HAL does, at no greater cost, I shall be grateful, if not eternally, at least for the rest of my relatively limited life expectancy.

 

Presently, I'm stuck with HAL for the following reasons among others; they have a school that produces a stream of excellent dining room stewards who make a visit to the MDR gracious even when it's a little slow (does "slow" also include never showing up after 15 minutes of sitting at a table, with no water, bread, or anything, until I'm forced to get up and leave, to order room service instead because the Lido is already closed??), they're courteous to those who bring a bottle or two of wine aboard and I've never seen them harass even a whisky smuggler, they offer a choice of fixed or open dining arrangements (if one insists) for those who prefer one or the other (is this choice available for everyone, or only those who book early enough to get their requested seating, or who are not subjected to a large group booking who takes up the entire upper or lower dining area?), they offer bar setups so one can get an inexpensive start on the evening's festivities (I guess my definition of "inexpensive" must be different than most, as paying $32 for a liter bottle of Captain Morgans or Jim Beam, as well as $2.24 per can of soda is well outside of what I consider "inexpensive"...and that is assuming they can even provide the requested soda, which they most certainly did NOT do on our last cruise, even though they assured us repeatedly that they would have it onboard for us), they have a few formal nights so my wife can dress up and pretend she married a good provider instead of me (too bad they don't enforce the dress code, as there were people in cargo pants and baseball caps on formal night in the MDR on our last cruise), there are no drunks "sharing" dirty stories with the world while waiting for the elevators late at night (for me after 9:30 pm) (nope, they're too busy dropping the anchor on a moving ship), and perhaps most important of all, when the recession hit, they didn't choose to sail with empty cabins to maintain their prestige as a premium-priced line, but reduced their fares so that the available cabins could stay full of people like me for our mutual benefit.(and I rest my case about dropped anchors and baseball caps in the MDR. Not that you sound at all like that...in fact, you sound like a courteous cruiser who completely enjoys the joys of cruising).

 

I do not claim to be especially well informed about the cruise business and there may be one or more other cruise lines which do all of the same things or even more at no greater cost. If you know of any, please let me and others like me know, so we can have a greater choice of ships, dates, itineraries, etc.

I am afraid that all cruise lines, to include Cunard apparently, have lowered their standards because of the economy, the bottom line, or some other reason. I think it is wonderful that you enjoy HAL so much, and have found everything with them to your liking. Unfortunately, I have not had the same experiences, and thus will be trying some other cruise lines in the very near future. At "no greater cost?" Nope. But for me personally, a little bit more money and the feeling that I've gotten what I paid for is worth it.