Teen accuses RCI employee of rape

[jessicalorene]

do you know this for a fact???

 

The article states at one point she had a moment of being able to think clearly and wanted to leave and it is worded to make us think she was not allowed to leave.

 

Thank the lord, I have never beem raped nor held against my will to be anywhere with anyone and if either of the above happened, I do not know what my reaction would be.

 

Stags-your frightening comment was one that said many that go back to someones room wants sex. Ryano thinks you hit the nail on the head. That mentality frightens me in my opinion. We're all entitled to them, we'll all agree to disagree!;)

 

I agree with this post 100% and also find some of the responses here appalling. Quick to defend the man as innocent until proven guilty but quick to call the girl a liar, money grubber and stupid. The simple facts are intoxicated persons cannot give consent and even if you go up to someones room shouting from the rooftops that you wan to have sex you are always within your right to change your mind and say no at any time. Rape doesn't always equal violent like they show on tv but it always equals wrong on the part of the rapist not the victim

[ryano]

Ryano thinks you hit the nail on the head. That mentality frightens me in my opinion. We're all entitled to them, we'll all agree to disagree!;)

 

None of us have any good information to properly access this situation but to those who threw this girl under the bus immediatly might want to look at some human compassion for a bit-that's all I'm trying to say.

 

First of all, I said Stags "hit the nail on the head" with this part below. Secondly, I never ONCE threw the girl in front of the bus. All I said is NONE of us were there and all this is none other than opinions floating around of which we ALL are entitled to as you just said and we will agree to disagree on this one. Im sorry my opinion frightens you but sometimes reality IS frightening.

 

The parents were probably sleeping. This isn't a 13 year old girl - she's a 17-18 year old girl. While still young, she is college-bound and likely won't have her parents there to hold her hand any longer.

 

Seems like she was having a fun night, gettin a nice buzz on some free drinks - went back with a guy and in the end when all was said and done she felt some guilt. My opinion... if it weren't for the photos - we wouldn't even be reading about this.

 

Truth is... girls this age get drunk and have sex all the time. I don't know why everyone is reacting like it never happens or like they never did it. The photographer thing was probably a bit too much... and like someone said - if there ARE pictures and she doesn't seem to be resisting then it will likely be very difficult if not impossible to charge him with rape. Is it wrong? Yea, it's wrong... but we could be dealing with a 22 year old magician which... 17 and 22 year olds "get together" all the time. We do not know the facts.

[ryano]

I agree with this post 100% and also find some of the responses here appalling. Quick to defend the man as innocent until proven guilty but quick to call the girl a liar, money grubber and stupid.

 

Why dont you point out to me where I said the girl was a liar a money grubber and stupid. In fact I dont believe anyone here has said that?

 

Good luck with that. ;)

[Aquahound]

I'm not an expert but it is possible the FBI doesn't have jurisdiction in international waters on a non-U.S. flagged / registered ship. I'm also not sure the FBI is the law enforcement agency that handles rape charges. I'm sure there are legal experts or actual FBI agents that would know far better than me.

 

The short answer is yes, they most certainly do have jurisdiction. Ship's flag is irrelevant in these matters.

 

However, there is one other aspect not mentioned here that is very important. According to an act called Stepansky, the state of Florida also has jurisdiction on cruise ships whose itineraries start and end in Florida. There are sex abuse/assault statutes under both federal and state law. If the U.S. Attorney was not willing to pursue charges, the state of Florida would have had the option. Apparently, and I'm just guessing here, the state also declined charges. The U.S. attorney tends to decline unless a case is solid, but for the state to decline sex assault charges, there really has to be a lack of evidence.

 

Why dont you point out to me where I said the girl was a liar a money grubber and stupid. In fact I dont believe anyone here has said that?

 

This is a good point. People really need to stop taking sides because no one knows what really happened.

[chef_christoph]

I have read everyone's opinions and I respect that we all aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this topic. I hope everyone will keep that in mind as I share my own opinion on the matter.

 

For many years now, I have volunteered my time and energy by volunteering in a capacity that puts me in a position to support survivors of rape and childhood sexual abuse. I have listened while survivors tell of their experiences and the aftermath of them.

 

I can't even begin to tell you how many times these events happen with no criminal charges being laid. Sometimes it has to do with a lack of evidence but most of the time the nature of the events do not lend themselves to fit the definition of rape currently written in the criminal code. The definition can vary widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and the problem is that the authorities can't just charge someone based on if they want to or not. The events must fit a pre-defined set of criteria in order for a rape charge to be laid.

 

I believe the problem here is, although most like to put agencies like the FBI on a pedestal and think that if they don't lay a charge then obviously a rape didn't occur, unfortunately the FBI's definition of the act of rape is very narrow and is basically confined to events where there was force involved.

 

I will echo what other people have said about Schooner Bar Girl's post being spot on. If someone is not able to give consent or consent is withdrawn at any time, most people, as well as many jurisdictions, recognise that as rape. The FBI's definition is far less encompassing so it really doesn't surprise me that a charge of rape was not laid in this case, even given the small amount of information available.

 

My support for the young girl is not a presumption of guilt against the employee of the cruise line. However, it sounds to me like he saw a young girl and, even though it is against company policy and could get himself fired, he still chose to buy her several drinks. Then, after she was intoxicated, he invited her back to his cabin.

 

These are not the actions of an honourable man and I don't care what the justice system says about innocent until being proven guilty, his actions even before getting anywhere near his cabin with this girl are those of a scum bag.

 

It makes it much easier for me to believe the events transpired as portrayed in multiple sources I found aside from the one quoted in my original post.

 

I wish the girl well in her efforts to recover from this experience.

[Aquahound]

I believe the problem here is, although most like to put agencies like the FBI on a pedestal and think that if they don't lay a charge then obviously a rape didn't occur, unfortunately the FBI's definition of the act of rape is very narrow and is basically confined to events where there was force involved.

 

I just read over the federal statutes concerning rape. They are covered under 18 USC 109A. It appears to me there has to be some sort of custody involved for the federal statutes to apply, meaning in a federal penitentiary or some other form of holding facility. If my interpretation is correct, the FBI would not have been able to pursue charges in this case.

 

However, that leads me back to the state of Florida option I mentioned in my last post.

[Stags14]

I am really tired of reading these responses about the girl's responsibility in this. What about the guy, who was older, and more worldly? What was his responsibility?

 

At least in Ohio, if you have sex with someone unable to consent, that is considered rape. And drunk = unable to consent. (As a side note, this doesn't only pertain to rape. As an RN, I know that consent for treatment cannot be obtained from a person who has taken narcotic pain meds because they are considered impaired.)

 

My husband was in a college fraternity. They were very big on "risk management." One HUGE thing drilled into their heads was not to engage in sexual activity with an intoxicated woman - because she cannot legally agree to it, and you are culpable for rape. Not saying everyone stuck to that advice, but it was there.

 

I don't know the laws that pertain to Florida, or what kind of evidence would be needed to prove rape, but I have to say that several of the responses in this thread are disturbing to say the least.

 

Not every 18 yr old girl has experience with or understands the effects of alcohol on her body, especially large amounts of alcohol.

 

Not every 18 yr old girl believes (or understands that men believe) that going back to a guys room = sex.

 

If some 20-something cruise ship musician (singer? I forget.) violates his employer's policies, provides a teenager with several alcoholic drinks and then takes her back to his room to have sex with her, and then later gets accused of rape (lets leave the "photographer" part out for now)? I know who I think has more responsibility in that case.

 

I thought this might be of interest to you:

 

 

 

 

http://yalecollege.yale.edu/content/definition-sexual-misconduct-including-sexual-assault-and-sexual-harassment

 

Who said the singer isn't responsible? They are BOTH responsible for their actions in this case. She made a bad decision and ended up in a place she didn't want to be in. The real question is WHEN did she decide that she didn't want to be in this situation? Seems to me it was after the incident occurred.

 

There is more to being intoxicated and being able to give consent - it differentiates from state to state and case to case.

 

And why is it so frightening to believe that when a girl goes back to a guy's room at 2AM after a night of drinks that having sex is typically what occurs? Did you not live through your teenage years and 20's? If you don't want to engage in sexual activities - don't go back to the dude's room. Period. And in regards to the guy (who everyone is implying is MUCH older - he could be 20 for all we know) if the girl says "NO" or say's "I want to leave" than he should let her leave - otherwise it IS rape.

 

But like I said - it seems she accused him afterwards to me.

 

Seriously, some of you are acting like this is the first time a 17 yr old girl has every gotten drunk and had sex - it happens ALL THE TIME! And for all we know - the guy didn't know how old she was - usually at a bar you don't say "how old are you?" But he could get the free drinks so he hooked her up. Again, it happens ALL THE TIME.

[chef_christoph]

Who said the singer isn't responsible? They are BOTH responsible for their actions in this case. She made a bad decision and ended up in a place she didn't want to be in. The real question is WHEN did she decide that she didn't want to be in this situation? Seems to me it was after the incident occurred.

 

There is more to being intoxicated and being able to give consent - it differentiates from state to state and case to case.

 

And why is it so frightening to believe that when a girl goes back to a guy's room at 2AM after a night of drinks that having sex is typically what occurs? Did you not live through your teenage years and 20's? If you don't want to engage in sexual activities - don't go back to the dude's room. Period. And in regards to the guy (who everyone is implying is MUCH older - he could be 20 for all we know) if the girl says "NO" or say's "I want to leave" than he should let her leave - otherwise it IS rape.

 

But like I said - it seems she accused him afterwards to me.

 

There is at least one source quoting court records stating she was 17 and he was 31 years old at the time of the incident. The same source quotes her as saying "I want to leave" and he did not allow her to.

[chef_christoph]

I just read over the federal statutes concerning rape. They are covered under 18 USC 109A. It appears to me there has to be some sort of custody involved for the federal statutes to apply, meaning in a federal penitentiary or some other form of holding facility. If my interpretation is correct, the FBI would not have been able to pursue charges in this case.

 

However, that leads me back to the state of Florida option I mentioned in my last post.

 

Thanks Paul, I appreciate and respect your experience when it comes to the law.

 

I guess the point I was trying to make is that, in my own experiences with matters such as these, the absence of a criminal charge doesn't negate the severity of the events or mean that a rape (using the widely recognised definition) did not occur.

[crusinmama06]

My support for the young girl is not a presumption of guilt against the employee of the cruise line. However, it sounds to me like he saw a young girl and, even though it is against company policy and could get himself fired, he still chose to buy her several drinks. Then, after she was intoxicated, he invited her back to his cabin.

 

These are not the actions of an honourable man and I don't care what the justice system says about innocent until being proven guilty, his actions even before getting anywhere near his cabin with this girl are those of a scum bag.

 

It makes it much easier for me to believe the events transpired as portrayed in multiple sources I found aside from the one quoted in my original post.

 

I wish the girl well in her efforts to recover from this experience.

 

WELL SAID SCOTT!!!!! :D:D:D

 

I have been waiting for this! THANK YOU!

[Maryscooking]

The real question is WHEN did she decide that she didn't want to be in this situation? Seems to me it was after the incident occurred.

 

What are information are you basing this on?

[Debde]

First of all, I said Stags "hit the nail on the head" with this part below. Secondly, I never ONCE threw the girl in front of the bus. All I said is NONE of us were there and all this is none other than opinions floating around of which we ALL are entitled to as you just said and we will agree to disagree on this one. Im sorry my opinion frightens you but sometimes reality IS frightening.

 

To explain-I put a paragraph in the middle to state 'to those who threw the girl under the bus'. That was no way directed at you to clarify.

The post you highlighted that stated where stags 'hit the nail on the head'- then this is the mentality that frightens me so we're clear:

 

Seems like she was having a fun night, gettin a nice buzz on some free drinks - went back with a guy and in the end when all was said and done she felt some guilt. My opinion... if it weren't for the photos - we wouldn't even be reading about this.

 

Because I'm not quite sure if this is reality or the norm in life. And yes, we'll agree to disagree:)

[galavant3]

Tragic. Regardless of the circumstances. And a reminder to those of us that travel with young adults that cruise ships are like small cities and you just cannot be too careful.

[Stags14]

What are information are you basing this on?

 

I think I've made my point here and I think that if you've read all my posts you probably know where I'm coming from. I do feel bad for her, it's unfortunate no matter what. But given the circumstances around the incident - it seems consentual. They were all drunk, they went back to the room and they had sex. It really doesn't seem like they had to twist her arm.

[believer33323]

Unfortunately we live in a world that sex is a very big part of everyday life. On TV, radio, and young people go to bars to get drunk and many (Not all) to find a partner and have sex. Maybe the best thing that could come our of all this is maybe some will learn NOT to put themselves in that position. Maybe parents will take the responsibility to actually talk to there kids about Not putting themselves in that type of position.

[jessicalorene]

Why dont you point out to me where I said the girl was a liar a money grubber and stupid. In fact I dont believe anyone here has said that?

 

Good luck with that. ;)

 

Please point out where I said YOU specifically said that.

 

Early on in the post one user commented on her trying to pad her pockets for her college tuition by making this accusations. I think that covers money grubber.

 

There have been MULTIPLE posts accusing the girl of not telling the truth and either lying due to guilt or regret, trying to set the guy up by crying in the hallway afterwards, etc

 

And lets not forget the stupid part! She went to the guys room, she should have known that = sex ! And again, multiple people pointing fingers at her for making bad decisions and essentially BEING STUPID.

 

Now, if you want to contest that these statements came from this thread by all means I can through and pick out and quote all my examples specifically. Just let me know! :rolleyes:

[Stags14]

Please point out where I said YOU specifically said that.

 

Early on in the post one user commented on her trying to pad her pockets for her college tuition by making this accusations. I think that covers money grubber.

 

There have been MULTIPLE posts accusing the girl of not telling the truth and either lying due to guilt or regret, trying to set the guy up by crying in the hallway afterwards, etc

 

And lets not forget the stupid part! She went to the guys room, she should have known that = sex ! And again, multiple people pointing fingers at her for making bad decisions and essentially BEING STUPID.

 

Now, if you want to contest that these statements came from this thread by all means I can through and pick out and quote all my examples specifically. Just let me know! :rolleyes:

 

I'll tell you right now, I said that. At 2AM after a night of drinking why else would you go back to a guys room? You think she thought he wanted to play connect 4? Let's be real here. It's no different than a girl being at a bar all night then going back to his apartment with him.

 

It was absolutely a bad decision. I didn't use the words "being stupid" and I also said if she said she wanted to leave, he should have let her... this is getting really old. What I say is my opinion, and certainly not fact. But the facts are this: she took the free drinks, she got drunk, she went back to his room and she took her clothes off. Don't you think that puts her into a situation where sex is to follow? This is rape? Come on...

[jessicalorene]

I'll tell you right now, I said that. At 2AM after a night of drinking why else would you go back to a guys room? You think she thought he wanted to play connect 4? Let's be real here. It's no different than a girl being at a bar all night then going back to his apartment with him.

 

It was absolutely a bad decision. I didn't use the words "being stupid" and I also said if she said she wanted to leave, he should have let her... this is getting really old. What I say is my opinion, and certainly not fact. But the facts are this: she took the free drinks, she got drunk, she went back to his room and she took her clothes off. Don't you think that puts her into a situation where sex is to follow? This is rape? Come on...

 

Yeah, it is rape, if at any point she said NO. Actually, by most laws it is rape because she was too intoxicated to give consent.

 

I don't care if she was dancing around naked. I said it before and I'll say it again - any woman (or man) is WELL within their rights to change their mind at and moment during and sexual encounter and that needs to be respected regardless of what your personal expectations may have been.

[Cruzaholic41]

Yeah, it is rape, if at any point she said NO. Actually, by most laws it is rape because she was too intoxicated to give consent.

 

 

And how do we know he wasn't too intoxicated to give consent?

 

Always so quick to victimize the girl. Poor little girl brutalized by the big, bad man. How do we know at some point he didn't try to stop it? How do we know she wasn't aggressive in the sexual conduct? How do we know she didn't ask him to take her to his room?

 

This was a ship's employee. Wouldn't going back to his room necessitate walking down the busy I95 crew corridor? Wouldn't that have meant at least a handful of ship's crew saw this? Wouldn't you think at some point she would have said something if this was against her will?

 

Is it possible she expected him to have a private room and then regretted it after the thought set in about the observing, picture taking roommate?

 

Get a grip people. First of all, nothing good happens at 2am, and going back to a guy's room absolutely does mean sex. I agree with Stags on that point.

 

I'm not trying to further victimize a victim, but I don't know that she actually was a victim. No charges have been filed in any jurisdiction, so that, alone, speaks volumes. I live and work in Dade County and I know Broward County pretty well. If there was evidence of a sex assault, that man would be in jail.

 

People need to stop believing one-sided articles posted in the media. Possible rape on a cruise ship - that's exactly the sort of story papers down here salivate over. Nevermind getting both sides of the story.

[kbmeow]

Who said the singer isn't responsible? They are BOTH responsible for their actions in this case. She made a bad decision and ended up in a place she didn't want to be in. The real question is WHEN did she decide that she didn't want to be in this situation? Seems to me it was after the incident occurred.

 

There is more to being intoxicated and being able to give consent - it differentiates from state to state and case to case.

 

And why is it so frightening to believe that when a girl goes back to a guy's room at 2AM after a night of drinks that having sex is typically what occurs? Did you not live through your teenage years and 20's? If you don't want to engage in sexual activities - don't go back to the dude's room. Period. And in regards to the guy (who everyone is implying is MUCH older - he could be 20 for all we know) if the girl says "NO" or say's "I want to leave" than he should let her leave - otherwise it IS rape.

 

But like I said - it seems she accused him afterwards to me.

 

Seriously, some of you are acting like this is the first time a 17 yr old girl has every gotten drunk and had sex - it happens ALL THE TIME! And for all we know - the guy didn't know how old she was - usually at a bar you don't say "how old are you?" But he could get the free drinks so he hooked her up. Again, it happens ALL THE TIME.

 

 

Harsh but true. I know going home with or leaving with someone at 2 am means hookup . Unless she was the most sheltered high school graduate, in which that case she should not have been alone on the ship. Also we do not know if there was force or not or buyers regret. The camera there creeps me out but , I am thinking she was basking in attention and the realized there are photos, anyone can see them. Golden rule is no cameras allowed so there is no proof. I regret the night that my friends and I were so drunk in a car that we flashed every trucker. Twice!!! Everybody has stupid 2am stories.

 

Now that being said she could have been skipped something, but I think if she were that would have clearly shown in pictures and they would have been prosecuted super fast. I think it may have been getting caught up in the moment and the spotlight and she went further that she is normally comfortable and then got scared. Either was I hope she is getting counseling

[ryano]

And how do we know he wasn't too intoxicated to give consent?

 

Always so quick to victimize the girl. Poor little girl brutalized by the big, bad man. How do we know at some point he didn't try to stop it? How do we know she wasn't aggressive in the sexual conduct? How do we know she didn't ask him to take her to his room?

 

This was a ship's employee. Wouldn't going back to his room necessitate walking down the busy I95 crew corridor? Wouldn't that have meant at least a handful of ship's crew saw this? Wouldn't you think at some point she would have said something if this was against her will?

 

Is it possible she expected him to have a private room and then regretted it after the thought set in about the observing, picture taking roommate?

 

Get a grip people. First of all, nothing good happens at 2am, and going back to a guy's room absolutely does mean sex. I agree with Stags on that point.

 

I'm not trying to further victimize a victim, but I don't know that she actually was a victim. No charges have been filed in any jurisdiction, so that, alone, speaks volumes. I live and work in Dade County and I know Broward County pretty well. If there was evidence of a sex assault, that man would be in jail.

 

People need to stop believing one-sided articles posted in the media. Possible rape on a cruise ship - that's exactly the sort of story papers down here salivate over. Nevermind getting both sides of the story.

 

Exactly. Enough said.

[jessicalorene]

Exactly. Enough said.

 

Seriously? Maybe because he didn't file any charges or accuse her of doing anything to him, that is why we aren't jumping to assume he may have been the victim.

 

I think the point that is being missed is that it doesn't MATTER of people interpret 2am as the "bootycall" hour, she could have been all for it and then changed her mind and its still considered RAPE.

[Stags14]

Yeah, it is rape, if at any point she said NO. Actually, by most laws it is rape because she was too intoxicated to give consent.

 

I don't care if she was dancing around naked. I said it before and I'll say it again - any woman (or man) is WELL within their rights to change their mind at and moment during and sexual encounter and that needs to be respected regardless of what your personal expectations may have been.

 

Did I not say a million times that if she wanted to leave at any point that he should have allowed her to? And you are speaking about a perfect world - this world isn't perfect. Girls should and MUST understand what going back to a guys room means instead of "oh don't worry honey, when you say no it means no, he will un-horney himself and just watch you put your clothes back on and leave." Forget that - don't put yourself in the situation - especially with a stranger!

 

I think they we can all agree that she consentually was having sex with the guy and then at some point during or after decided no (I am assuming because of the photographer). Come on... in the middle of having sex you're going to decide you're getting raped? Hopefully she is ok, and hopefully she learned a valuable lesson and perhaps lays off the booze for a while. Given the fact of photographic evidence, I would imagine they would have charged the guy before he even walked off the boat if they thought it was rape.

 

Furthermore, how do we know she didn't lie about her age and say she was 18, or 20 but still couldn't buy drinks. You can give consent at that age regardless of intoxication level.

 

Back in my single days I've been in this situation when a girl has changed her mind. And whenever it happened I would tell them - you are lucky it's me because most guys out there just would not be happy about this. Girls need to be a little smarter about their decisions also. But they were never strangers because I was always scared of some chick pulling this kind of thing. Ridiculous.

[Lynnees]

 

I think they we can all agree that she consentually was having sex with the guy and then at some point during or after decided no (I am assuming because of the photographer). Come on... in the middle of having sex you're going to decide you're getting raped? Hopefully she is ok, and hopefully she learned a valuable lesson and perhaps lays off the booze for a while. Given the fact of photographic evidence, I would imagine they would have charged the guy before he even walked off the boat if they thought it was rape.

 

 

No we cannot all agree that she consentually was having sex - that is your best guess on something you know nothing about.

 

I blows my mind the ignorance that is being shown on here. Thank goodness there are really not that many people in the world that have any interest in this site. The behaviour on here by some is absolutely disgusting.

[patseacruiser]

I think I've made my point here and I think that if you've read all my posts you probably know where I'm coming from. I do feel bad for her, it's unfortunate no matter what. But given the circumstances around the incident - it seems consentual. They were all drunk, they went back to the room and they had sex. It really doesn't seem like they had to twist her arm.

 

Consensual? At 17? Really?