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GASP .... We're Ready to Give Up Formal

sail7seas

By sail7seas,
in Holland America Line

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arewethereyet

arewethereyet

Posted
Posted

 

I have read enough here to know that some people do eat in the MDR with dirty, sloppy clothes and are in need of a shower & shampoo, but I have yet to encounter anyone like that in the MDR on any of my cruises.

 

 

Like you, I don't deny that there are people who do that, but I've never noticed any in 20 years of cruising either. I suspect the "dirty, in need of a shower" characterization is a strawman to a great extent.

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3rdGenCunarder "Live from...." Rare

3rdGenCunarder

Posted
Posted
Anyone have any thoughts on formal wear for kids? I was just going to pack slacks, and a shirt and tie for my son (age 8) as he doesn't have a jacket. Would that be OK?

 

That sounds fine for his age. I think it's great to see kids dressed nicely, and it's a good thing for them to practice early.

 

Don't flame me about fashion police, but I have seen passengers smiling at a kid who is dressed nicely for formal night. You can almost hear them say, "What a good kid, to dress up to eat a proper meal with his/her family!"

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3rdGenCunarder "Live from...." Rare

3rdGenCunarder

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I can't resist making a few comments ...

 

It sometimes amuses me that some of the sticklers for enforcing the dress code for formal wear advocate what is in reality smart casual. Formal is a tux or suit for men, and a gown for women. Dressy slacks for women can be very expensive, very well cut, very well everything - but slacks for women are not formal. Cocktail dresses are not formal.

 

(snip)

 

 

I think most of the people who post in favor of enforcing the dress code know very well what true formal wear is. Many of us own such garments. But if I were to say "HAL needs to keep formal night FORMAL, tuxes and gowns only!!" I'd be flamed from here to the moon and back and told to take my sorry overdressed self back to Cunard or the 19th century.

 

People who like formal night have often tried to encourage the naysayers to try it by pointing out that HAL's definition of formal does not require a tux or a ballgown and is pretty easy to meet. Perhaps the naysayers are taking the word "formal" as literally as you are, and they are reluctant to dress up to that degree.

 

I can't speak for all of the posters who like formal night, but when I point out that HAL does not requrie a tux or gown, I'm trying to give people a little encouragement. Perhaps someone who goes the suit and cocktail dress route on their next cruise might get inspired and go for a tux and gown on a subsequent cruise. I'd rather encourage people than lecture them.

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kzooknoedel

kzooknoedel

Posted
Posted
That sounds fine for his age. I think it's great to see kids dressed nicely, and it's a good thing for them to practice early.

 

Don't flame me about fashion police, but I have seen passengers smiling at a kid who is dressed nicely for formal night. You can almost hear them say, "What a good kid, to dress up to eat a proper meal with his/her family!"

 

Thanks. Yes, I am glad we'll have this chance to dress up and eat a "fancy" meal. I was just hoping not to have to buy a jacket when he really has no reason to wear one at home and would grow out of it soon.

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SilverDollarDoll

SilverDollarDoll

Posted
Posted
We loved eating in Canaletto on our last cruise and the food and service were so good we ate there twice. Looking forward to doing it again in January. Once seated, we didn't even know we were near the Lido.

 

Just wondering what you do about tipping? Should you? How much is acceptable. What do you think is the average tip?

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RuthC

RuthC

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Thanks. Yes, I am glad we'll have this chance to dress up and eat a "fancy" meal. I was just hoping not to have to buy a jacket when he really has no reason to wear one at home and would grow out of it soon.

You could try a second-hand shop to see if there's anything available at a steal. Sometimes you can pick up clothing for a couple of bucks. Literally---a dollar or two.

Or, have you considered a vest, or sweater vest over the shirt, to kind of polish off the look?

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Countrygent

Countrygent

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Oh, why not make my first post on CC on a subject that will never be closed nor lack for another point of view?

 

I'd make the observation that what has changed over time is the balance between personal choice and a sense of obligation and courtesy towards others.

 

A sad proportion of people seem more inconsiderate of others in many ways than what I recall when I was younger: they speak on the telephone in a crowded elevator or during meals at the table; they cut-in lines, fail to give up a seat to somebody older or burdened with children or packages, don't hold doors or offer to assist strangers in small ways. Table manners, driving manners, simple things like greeting guests, making introductions, putting the comfort of others before one's own. How many times have we seen an older or smaller person trying to wrestle a bag into an overhead bin on an airplane while able young people sit on their backsides and watch without moving a muscle? Have another person push rudely in front of us at a retail store, or a busy bar? I find an alarming number of members of the public simply rude and selfish, and it cuts across all ages and economic standing.

 

Dress and grooming have very broad standards these days but there is an aspect about how we present ourselves to others that at times speaks to whether or not we care to recognize others, to show we respect them, or wish to make them feel welcomed and at ease. Sloppy dress at the beach or informal venues where the societal norm is "we let it all hang out at this time and place"? Great. Don't want to shave on vacation, or wear the old tattered outfit to lie in the sun ... only a prude would take notice unless the outfit is literally dirty, or indecent. A man or women can carry themselves with any degree of nobility even in rags. It is about attitude.

 

I can hear my mother's voice when we used to be chided about table manners as kids - "It isn't about you, dear, it is about making other people feel comfortable and appreciated." Emily Post used to say manners are about kindness and consideration, so that we can give and receive hospitality to make social situations pleasant, comfortable, gracious, graceful, fun and entertaining. That goes for hot dogs by the pool as much as formal dining. Pass the mustard .... PLEASE. Thank-you. "I'm going for a drink, can I get anybody else anything?".

 

To me the whole debate about dress boils down to being considerate of others. For some guests a formal evening dinner is a particular vacation or cruise event, a chance to dress-up and enjoy a sense of occasion, and well, some formality. I believe it is simply inconsiderate to reduce that ambiance by dressing-down and attending in the same room, especially when it is a designated special evening and other alternatives are available. There isn't much ambiguity about it - the Maitre'D should enforce the formal evening dress code or HAL isn't meeting the fair expectations of guests who are looking forward to the well-advertised ambiance of a more formal experience in the MDR. People who flaunt the rules are just plainly rude and inconsiderate in my opinion.

 

On the other hand HAL leaves some ambiguity in their request for formal evenings with regard to the public spaces other than the MDR. Large numbers of more casual guests can't be expected to scamper between their cabins and the Lido to eat like children banished from the downstairs during an adult dinner party.

 

Personally, if I was directing HAL, on formal evenings I would also designate specific adjacent areas to the MDR and at least one of the principal lounges as also being formal areas after a clearly fixed hour, and spell it out plainly. To the extent of putting velvet ropes across some areas and small signage saying "formal evening guests only". Maybe the promenade deck would be included so the formal crowd could have an exterior venue as well. And strictly enforced. To balance that, they could conversely designate public areas or decks of the ship that would remain resort casual for those who choose not to participate in formal evenings, in the same way as they have made the Lido an alternative venue. Anybody who broke the rules could be thrown over the railing and into the sea where they probably belong. (OK, just kidding).

 

So I suppose I cut two ways - I would make the formal requirement clear and strict; but on the other hand in this day and age it just isn't realistic for a 1400 guest ship to expect all their guests to want to participate in a formal evening. Time for those that want 100% compliance to look for smaller venues, or cruises that are designated as "formal". Can't really see that happening, but ...

 

What I really do miss and recall from my childhood was a time when more people took it upon themselves to feel obliged towards the comfort and enjoyment of others.

 

I have a theory it relates to the great swings of the economy - as we come to end of period of great expansion of prosperity a smaller proportion of people experience anxiety about making the best impression possible on the people they meet. They are economically secure and they just don't care ... good times have floated even the leaky boats among us. When times become harder, then people will once again become more self-conscious and wish to distinguish themselves by showing greater gentility and consideration for others, partly as a matter of self-preservation, but perhaps also because once one learns the reciprocal joys of manners and gentility, they stick for life for their own sake. And I hasten to protest I am not being snobbish - it is all about respect for other people, not how rich or poor, educated or advantaged one may or may not be.

 

Caring about manners and being considerate of others may not mean any more people will want to dress-up, they may embrace a casual lifestyle, but it will mean they might take the time to think about when and where it is appropriate to do just as they themselves please, and when they should accommodate the wishes of others.

 

Is it no small surprise that the crew members who come from financially disadvantaged countries are almost universally at pains to appear polite and accomodating?

 

Whew. Forgive me for rambling. Rudeness gets my dander up! :cool:

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Countrygent

Countrygent

Posted
Posted
Excellent post, Countrygent.

But maybe you set the bar too high? I don't know, can you can keep up that standard?

 

Thanks.

 

You're right, I'll post something terrible soon to even things out. The literary equivalent of a tank top at the dinner table to keep it real.

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SantaAna,CA

SantaAna,CA

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If people want to show up in formal night wearing...well...whatever, that's up to them. I'm still packing, and wearing, my gowns.

 

I'm on the Maasdam in December. One of the reasons I chose Holland over Azamara/Oceania was just that...the other two lines have no formal nights.

 

Jane

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Watson's aunt

Watson's aunt

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Hi

 

I did not have a gown but I did have a very nice pair of slacks, dress blouse with a dressy top and shawl. If the Hal went with just gowns and tux on my last cruise (4 nights formal) they would have no more than 25 people in the dinning room. So where do other people eat? I am somewhat over weight I would look more foolish in a gowm than what I wore. I did see one man without a suit and tie. he never came to the other Formal nights. I did see a large family of 18. from elderly to toddler, They were a few tables away. I never heard a shound from the children and there were a lot of them. On fomal night the little boys had a white shirt and tie some had a jacket. Little girls had on nice dresses. Other nights the were dressed as going to church. I think everyone was very nicly dressed on formal and other nights.

AlsoI had late seating and I would watch people leaving the MBR I would say less that 1 0/0 had on gowns and tuxs. I might have invested in a gown but I am not sure how many times I would wear a gown or take a cruise

 

Mary

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