Will we be denied boarding?

[Karysa]

Please explain this clearly. Why would you not be able to hold a passport but be able to leave the country?

[mapsmith]

Just want to mention, that there are many reports of people in exactly this same situation being detained upon return to the US when going thru Customs and Immigration coming back into the Country.

 

As others have said, he probably needs at least a letter from the Case Manager approving the trip or even a letter from the Family Court Judge allowing the trip.

 

Just to be on the safe side and make the vacation enjoyable.

[Spoiledliz]

Just want to mention, that there are many reports of people in exactly this same situation being detained upon return to the US when going thru Customs and Immigration coming back into the Country.

 

As others have said, he probably needs at least a letter from the Case Manager approving the trip or even a letter from the Family Court Judge allowing the trip.

 

Just to be on the safe side and make the vacation enjoyable.

 

I actually found this, although it is a bit outdated. (Go to page 6)

 

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/pubs/2008/csr/csr0804.pdf

 

According to this article, these two men were detained because they had warrants out for their arrest for nonpayment of child support. My brother has no warrants or anything like that and pays his child support.

 

I just called our travel agent and she is going to talk to some people for me but quite honestly, I am too worried to just take her word for it.

[Realblonde474]

You might have him check the quality of his birth certificate. Some companies require that the BC have an embossed (raised) seal from the county/hospital on it. I know that we just had to do this for something else.

 

Just check on that! I would hate for everyone to give you all of this advice and it all comes down to a BC without a seal.

[Spoiledliz]

You might have him check the quality of his birth certificate. Some companies require that the BC have an embossed (raised) seal from the county/hospital on it. I know that we just had to do this for something else.

 

Just check on that! I would hate for everyone to give you all of this advice and it all comes down to a BC without a seal.

 

Thank you for the recommendation!

 

We did just obtain a long form with the perfectly raised seal! Knowing he wouldn't get a passport, we made sure the birth certificate and license are perfect!

[greatam]

Chill out. You have no idea if there is a court order or not, you don't know this case, neither do I. I asked a question and then told the OP her brother needs to contact the agency involved. Because of privacy laws, the OP is not going to be able to discuss the exact details of this case and the brother needs to make the calls.

 

While you may be denied a passport for child support arrears, there is NOTHING to prevent you from LEAVING the country UNLESS you have a court order preventing you from leaving and those are issued in 99% of cases BECAUSE the person is on probation/parole (for child support where the person has spent time in jail or prison or another reason). And even then, the parole/probation officer can give permission to leave the country.

 

I have been working on and off for the last 4 years overseas in the war zones. Quite a few of those with child support arrears were able to get passports to be able to GO TO WORK overseas and pay their arrears. IF there were no warrants (some got their warrants pulled with the presentation of an overseas job) for non payment, and they could get a court order to get a passport (with the proviso that the employing company deduct XXX dollars and remit for child support arrears), they were cleared by Treasury, State and the US Military. Took some work and usually the help of an attorney BUT is it better to be employed overseas or sit in the USA unemployed and letting the child support just build up?

[greatam]

Just want to mention, that there are many reports of people in exactly this same situation being detained upon return to the US when going thru Customs and Immigration coming back into the Country.

 

As others have said, he probably needs at least a letter from the Case Manager approving the trip or even a letter from the Family Court Judge allowing the trip.

 

Just to be on the safe side and make the vacation enjoyable.

 

Those that area detained have warrants or are "persons of interest" for whatever reason.

 

What would be the reason for getting a letter from the case manager or Family Court Judge?? If there are no warrants, I fail to see what a letter would do.

[reallyitsmema]

Thank you for the recommendation!

 

We did just obtain a long form with the perfectly raised seal! Knowing he wouldn't get a passport, we made sure the birth certificate and license are perfect!

Is he going to call his case manager today? Make sure he gets something in writing saying he can leave the country. I know your TA is trying to help but you need something official. No matter how many stories are posted here, all cases are different. You want to be able to have a great cruise with nothing hanging over anyones head.

[2wheelin]

Thank you for all of your advice.

 

My brother had taken the wrong path after the birth of his daughter for several years. He has been paying his weekly support in addition to his arrears for 4 years now. This cruise is a gift from my husband and myself to him to celebrate his 5 years of being sober. I understand the preemptive strikes against his character but I ask you to judge when all facts are known. He has made his mistakes and is working diligently to correct them.

 

I understand due to this cruise being a closed loop cruise he does not need a passport but my concern lies with the fact that if because he is not able to possess a passport, does that mean he cannot board a cruise ship? I can't seem to find any information on the DOR website or WHTI or Royal Caribbean.

 

I contacted DOR and they said even though he is not in default and even though he is paying his arrears, he is not able to get a passport but they did not mention that he is not able to travel. As I said previously, he was able to board a plane and fly to St. Thomas. Is there any difference than him flying to Puerto Rico and boarding the ship given that its a closed loop cruise?

 

I commend your brother on his sobriety and hope he continues on the right path. HOWEVER, maybe your could better spend your money paying the $2500 FIRST to the mom raising his child without benefit of support for many years (probably also had to deal with his "wrong path" shenanigans). Sure he has been sober 5 years but obviously he hasn't paid his debt so this is a pretty big reward. Maybe you could send his child and mom on a cruise too.

Not judging your family personally but these types of behavior in general cost us all money.

[Spoiledliz]

I commend your brother on his sobriety and hope he continues on the right path. HOWEVER, maybe your could better spend your money paying the $2500 FIRST to the mom raising his child without benefit of support for many years (probably also had to deal with his "wrong path" shenanigans). Sure he has been sober 5 years but obviously he hasn't paid his debt so this is a pretty big reward. Maybe you could send his child and mom on a cruise too.

Not judging your family personally but these types of behavior in general cost us all money.

 

I understand what you are saying but I assure you, the mother and my God-daughter have never gone without anything. My brother wasn't always able to be there but we always were. And yes, I have taken my niece/God-daughter on several vacations so again, I assure the skeptics out there that the mother and the child are supportive of this trip.

[smeyer418]

BTW its not an IRS or State department rule. Its a law passed by Congress and signed by the then President...

The law allows the withholding of a passport for a parent who is seriously in arrears in payment of child support. Normally this is reported by the state agency that is tasked in assisting in collecting child support(each state has one). The purpose was to force parents who could pay to do so, instead of the state having to pay welfare(or similar) payments. there does not need to be an order of arrest to have a passport withheld. Its my understanding that if there is a payment arrangement for arrears most states either withdraw or suspend or don't report to the State department to withhold the passport. Its only when payments are not being made pursuant to an order or an agreement that passports are withheld.

What the individual circumstances are here we don't know.

[Spoiledliz]

So I just contacted the US Passport Office and they stated that because he does not need a passport to board the cruise he will not have a problem boarding the ship with the proper birth certificate. She stated that the arrearage issue is solely related to obtaining the passport and does not restrict his traveling if a passport is not needed. She said it is the equivalent of traveling state to state.

[greatam]

I actually found this, although it is a bit outdated. (Go to page 6)

 

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/pubs/2008/csr/csr0804.pdf

 

According to this article, these two men were detained because they had warrants out for their arrest for nonpayment of child support. My brother has no warrants or anything like that and pays his child support.

 

 

 

You are EXACTLY correct. It is the WARRANTS that induce the arrest or may prevent leaving the country when Homeland Security matches up the cruise ship manifest to the databases. DH also has no warrants and has been in and out of the USA many, many times for work and fun in the last 12 years. No questions asked whether he enters via land, sea or air. In fact, we just walked back across the border in Algodones Mexico into Arizona (where part of DH's child support action is) two weeks ago (medicine run) and the only comments that were made were something like 'I have never seen a passport with so many pages in it.' And the lady got to talking with him about working overseas and all the places he has traveled.

[Karysa]

So I just contacted the US Passport Office and they stated that because he does not need a passport to board the cruise he will not have a problem boarding the ship with the proper birth certificate. She stated that the arrearage issue is solely related to obtaining the passport and does not restrict his traveling if a passport is not needed. She said it is the equivalent of traveling state to state.

 

Fascinating but really, really messed up if you think about it. Being able to get off of a ship in Mexico or the Caribbean is just not the same as traveling state to state.

[sail7seas]

In the realm of discussing travel documents with the issuer of such document (passport), it is the same. A passport is not needed for state to state transit nor is it reqired for this closed loop cruise.

 

[greatam]

BTW its not an IRS or State department rule. Its a law passed by Congress and signed by the then President...

 

I certainly understand that it is a Congressional law. But it is IRS and State that have enforcement action within the law and interact with the states.

 

 

The law allows the withholding of a passport for a parent who is seriously in arrears in payment of child support. Normally this is reported by the state agency that is tasked in assisting in collecting child support(each state has one). The purpose was to force parents who could pay to do so, instead of the state having to pay welfare(or similar) payments. there does not need to be an order of arrest to have a passport withheld. Its my understanding that if there is a payment arrangement for arrears most states either withdraw or suspend or don't report to the State department to withhold the passport. Its only when payments are not being made pursuant to an order or an agreement that passports are withheld.

What the individual circumstances are here we don't know.

 

You are exactly correct. I have been through this for 10 years and we got the court order from the State of Iowa to allow DH to have his passport while the conflicting laws were worked out. The States do not have to have a active warrant to deny a passport (or license plate renewal or DL renewal). All they have to do is send a letter to the corresponding agency asking to withhold a passport, license plates or DL renewal. IRS automatically withholds tax refunds if YOU HAVE EVERY been on the State ordered list to withhold tax refunds UNTIL you go to court and get an order to stop the withholding.

[2wheelin]

Fascinating but really, really messed up if you think about it. Being able to get off of a ship in Mexico or the Caribbean is just not the same as traveling state to state.

In the realm of discussing travel documents with the issuer of such document (passport), it is the same. A passport is not needed for state to state transit nor is it reqired for this closed loop cruise.

 

So if I have a roundtrip air ticket to Mexico and back to the states, that is a closed loop trip. Why do I need a passport? They may be closed loop cruises but passengers may get off at any port and not return to complete the loop.

[Karysa]

In the realm of discussing travel documents with the issuer of such document (passport), it is the same. A passport is not needed for state to state transit nor is it reqired for this closed loop cruise.

 

So if I have a roundtrip air ticket to Mexico and back to the states, that is a closed loop trip. Why do I need a passport? They may be closed loop cruises but passengers may get off at any port and not return to complete the loop.

 

Exactly. It just does not make any sense.

[johneeo]

 

So if I have a roundtrip air ticket to Mexico and back to the states, that is a closed loop trip. Why do I need a passport?

 

Because it is the law.

 

To fly to another country you need a passport.

[1025cruise]

When the US decided to mandate passport usage, they had intended to include cruises as well. The cruise industry lobbied against this as it would be bad for business, so the exception for closed loop cruises was put in.

[sail7seas]

In the realm of discussing travel documents with the issuer of such document (passport), it is the same. A passport is not needed for state to state transit nor is it reqired for this closed loop cruise.

So if I have a roundtrip air ticket to Mexico and back to the states, that is a closed loop trip. Why do I need a passport? They may be closed loop cruises but passengers may get off at any port and not return to complete the loop.

 

Exactly. It just does not make any sense.

 

 

 

 

 

Who said it has to make sense?

 

There is one rule for international air travel and another for international cruising in closed loop itinerary.

 

Edited January 10, 2012 by sail7seas

[fishywood]

Yes, it is 100% correct that a closed-loop itinerary such as this does not require a passport for US or Canadian citizens. The logic and motive for this rule (or absence of rule, depending on one's perspective) is moot here. The cruiselines have the same obligation on closed-loops as they do on all voyages: to deny boarding to anyone not eligible to return to the United States. That is why some of us feel it is necessary for the gentleman who has been denied a passport to make sure he is not on any "watch list" that could bring his vacation to an unjust conclusion.

 

Thankfully this does not appear to be the case. Have a wonderful time on your cruise!

[okbowler]

In the realm of discussing travel documents with the issuer of such document (passport), it is the same. A passport is not needed for state to state transit nor is it reqired for this closed loop cruise.

 

 

So if I have a roundtrip air ticket to Mexico and back to the states, that is a closed loop trip. Why do I need a passport? They may be closed loop cruises but passengers may get off at any port and not return to complete the loop.

 

In both cases you would need your passport to get on transportation to the USA , land, air or water as you have broken the closed loop. The ship has sailed, need passport when you check in to fly home. :D Bill

[sail7seas]

In both cases you would need your passport to get on transportation to the USA , land, air or water as you have broken the closed loop. The ship has sailed, need passport when you check in to fly home. :D Bill

 

 

That is correct.

[Karysa]

Would you be able to fly home if you were unable to return on the same closed loop cruise? Would you be able to get travel health insurance.

?