Costa Concordia sinking (merged threads)

[sail7seas]

Investigations will take months, but it would surprise me if they didn't look at the squat effect, too. The QE2 accident near Cutty Hunk (Martha's Vineyard area) was attributed to it, as I recall from reading the NTSB report on that accident. (The captain of the Wind Star happened to have the report and shared it with me when sailing that vessel in the 1990s.)

 

 

Wasn't speed the issue with QE2 and Cape Cod Canal?

[RMLincoln]

I just read that a crew member said they only have life boat muster drill once every 15 days, while passengers get on and off almost every day. m--

[Barrick]

There is more and more talk on all the news channels that the captain was one of the first to abandon the ship. They are interviewing passengers that are all saying there was no direction whatsoever from the bridge, nothing at all. They are saying that fellow passengers were leading the rescue efforts, and manning the lifeboat stations.

 

No announcements from the bridge, no mayday calls transmitted, how can this be possible on a cruise ship operating in Europe?

 

If this turns out to be accurate, then shame on them.

[MSH from Norway]

I am a firm believer in that "things" happen in 3's. Last week we had the MSC Poesia running aground at Half Moon Cay, I pray that Veendam hitting a crane as she was leaving port was the 2nd and now this....... If the Veendam was not the 2nd mishap in the cycle of 3's......

---------

 

.......and don't forget the small fire onboard Zuiderdam during the Christmas-cruise in Panama! The fire-alarm went on thru our dinner. The captain was on the speakers every three minutes, saing don't worry, smoke-firemenn are working with the fire.

Not a big fire, but a fire in engine-room is something one should take seriously.

 

Whats worried me, was that everybody was still eating, and the waiters only were smiling.

 

I don't live far away from where MS Nordlys in September 2011 had a fire in the engine-room and almost went over.

http://maritimematters.com/2011/09/fatal-fire-on-ms-nordlys/

 

Every eurepean news-web-side is nov telling more and more dark stories about the costa-ship. Latest news is that the captein said the same as the Zuiderdam-captain, don't worry. Its nothing and that the crew refused to use the lifeboats in the beginng

 

Hal, Costa and Carnival is as I understand the same company?

Do they also have the same policy? Don't worry, be happy until it is time to swim?

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/14/world/europe/italy-cruise-scene/index.html

Willits and her husband managed to get into a lifeboat about an hour to 90 minutes after the alarm was raised, and were among the first to be taken to land.

 

..........they should have been into a lifeboat on the water under 15 till 25 minutts......

 

The captain did not send any sos/maydays.

No, that was not necessary. He could have been jusing whatever cell-phone an called the local police for help instead for waiting over an hour. The ship sends a lot of sos when the people are beginning to swim...

 

[WriterOnDeck]

Wasn't speed the issue with QE2 and Cape Cod Canal?

 

Speed was a contributing factor -- slower speed would have lessened or eliminated squat. (The ship was south of Cutty Hunk, not in the Canal, just as a point of reference.)

[Boytjie]

I am a firm believer in that "things" happen in 3's. Last week we had the MSC Poesia running aground at Half Moon Cay,

 

MSC Poesia did not run aground at Half Moon Cay but at Port Lucaya, Bahamas, the day before it called on Half Mon Cay.

 

Video shows buildings not at HMC: http://youtu.be/-ZQKpFHbZ04

[BeachFan53]

RE: the "squat" effect, below is a cut and paste from Capt. Mercer's HAL blog on the Amsterdam on his cruise into Belem, Brazil on Friday...explains it very well:

 

 

 

 

 

Submitted by: Captain Mercer

Friday, Jan. 13, 2012

Belem, Brazil. It lies on the Para river and is one of the large, southerly tributaries of the mighty Amazon river. We entered the mouth of the delta as planned, at 2 a.m. Considering the length of the passage and its complexity, Friso, my 2nd in command and Chief Officer, took the first part of the channel and then I, having had some sleep, did the second.

There is a very strong current, in our case against us and although we were making rpm for around 19 knots, we were making, at best 17 and at worst, 15. The passage was exacerbated by the varying depths in the river and at stages, we had less than 5 meters under the keel. At these clearances, the “Amsterdam” becomes subject to ‘squat’. This is a hydraulic effect that occurs when the water being displaced by the ship’s passage of the bottom doesn’t have sufficient time or clearance to be replaced fast enough; as a consequence the hull sinks bodily and this morning it was up to 0.6 of a meter. One always had to bear this in mind and the easiest solution is to slow down, thereby giving the water more time to ‘rush in’ and replace the water being displaced. Just before the anchorage, we sailed over a bank which had 11 meters of water over it and consequently we took this very slowly, at 10 knots to be precise, to reduce ‘squat’.

[Topsham]

Stephen,

Thank you for your reply.

You must have really seen some "stuff" to entertain the idea that they had done it before.;) I guess only previous gps records would show for sure, but that would be insane with a 600+million dollar ship and 4200+ souls.

Indeed, a sad thing.

Mark...

 

Mark,

 

I think is where the investigation will be headed.

 

Some "stuff'? I'll tell you this, I've never made the same mistake twice!!!;)

 

But as I said, "sightseeing' is very normal for cruise ship and a planned alteration of course etc for the purpose is just fine... but if you 'wing it'... look out!

 

Stephen

[Oceanwench]

MSC Poesia did not run aground at Half Moon Cay but at Port Lucaya, Bahamas, the day before it called on Half Mon Cay.

 

Video shows buildings not at HMC: http://youtu.be/-ZQKpFHbZ04

 

Thanks for posting the correct facts on this incident! :)

[AZWTRLVR]

I've been following this thread all day with interest. To speculate from another direction...I do not know if it has been definitely determined if the captain was on the bridge from the beginning. Obviously the captain cannot be expected to be on the bridge 24/7, that is what the mates are for. Each mate stands a specific watch during a twenty-four hour period and is in charge.

 

How many times have we seen the captain in the passenger areas of the ship - captain's receptions, chatting with passengers, lunching in the Lido etc. all the while, I am sure, able to be in contact with the bridge.

 

That being the case, whatever started the emergency began under a mate's watch, wherever the captain was. What was initially relayed to the captain hasn't been determined at this point. How long it took the captain to get to the bridge, visually determine what was happening and take command other than by cell (?) phone is unknown.

 

This is not to absolve the captain of responsibility at all, just an observation from another direction. After all, when the last mooring line is thrown from the ship at a dock, the captain is the absolute authority and the final responsibility for the ship, passengers and crew is his.

 

It is totally reprehensible if he left the ship before all passengers were accounted for. I'm sure he will face very severe penalties for his actions.

[RMLincoln]

Just catching up on this thread...

 

Wouldn't it have been too dark to be sightseeing?

 

There was also Greek cruise ship that sank off of Santorini just a few years ago, maybe 2007, in which a father and daughter died. The captain abandoned the ship with the excuse that he could manage the rescue better from on land! I think he's in jail now, still.

 

I read that they only did muster station drill on this ship every 15 days becasue passengers were getting on and off at every port, as relayed by a crew member. I'd bet that will change!

 

I like the way Princess does the muster drill, inside, away for the weather and in a more controlled atmosphere.

 

I think when we board in March, we will look for an alternate location to find each other in an emergency, maybe somewhere on an upper deck where there are benches with life jackets, in case we can't get to our cabin. Just starting to think more now... We work in emergency response and regularly look for phones, exits, fire extinguishers etc, but now need to add to the list.

 

Blessings to each involved in this horror. m--

[sail7seas]

I've been following this thread all day with interest. To speculate from another direction...I do not know if it has been definitely determined if the captain was on the bridge from the beginning. Obviously the captain cannot be expected to be on the bridge 24/7, that is what the mates are for. Each mate stands a specific watch during a twenty-four hour period and is in charge.

 

How many times have we seen the captain in the passenger areas of the ship - captain's receptions, chatting with passengers, lunching in the Lido etc. all the while, I am sure, able to be in contact with the bridge.

 

That being the case, whatever started the emergency began under a mate's watch, wherever the captain was. What was initially relayed to the captain hasn't been determined at this point. How long it took the captain to get to the bridge, visually determine what was happening and take command other than by cell (?) phone is unknown.

 

This is not to absolve the captain of responsibility at all, just an observation from another direction. After all, when the last mooring line is thrown from the ship at a dock, the captain is the absolute authority and the final responsibility for the ship, passengers and crew is his.

 

It is totally reprehensible if he left the ship before all passengers were accounted for. I'm sure he will face very severe penalties for his actions.

 

 

:confused:

 

How do you know the Captain was not on the bridge?

I'm having a hard time making that leap that the Captain was not on the bridge.

Maybe it is so but did you hear this reliably reported somewhere? (I did see you used the word 'speculate'.)

[jschm27]

Just catching up on this thread...

 

 

 

I think when we board in March, we will look for an alternate location to find each other in an emergency, maybe somewhere on an upper deck where there are benches with life jackets, in case we can't get to our cabin. Just starting to think more now... We work in emergency response and regularly look for phones, exits, fire extinguishers etc, but now need to add to the list.

 

Blessings to each involved in this horror. m--

 

Agree. Always a good idea to have an escape plan/route in place no matter where you are, i.e. hotel, restaurant, sporting event, etc. You never know....

 

John

[Modern_Viking]

Ship's captain arrested for manslaughter investigation according to CNN link:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/14/world/europe/italy-cruise-deaths/index.html

 

NB: I wonder if "detained" and held for investigation would have been a better translation than "arrested for manslaughter" implication.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I would guess that Italian law might be similar to French law. In France, accident investigations (ships, airplanes, etc.) are always criminal investigations and the officers (or mechanics or any other people found to be a part in the root-cause of the accident) can be held criminally liable and jailed for manslaughter. It is not like the USA (or, as far as I can tell, places like Canada and Australia) where the primary purpose of the investigation is to find the truth of what happened and how to prevent it from happening again. In some places, the primary purpose is to fix blame and send people to jail.

 

Granted, the US also jailed (briefly) a ship captain for being intoxicated while in command (although not on the bridge), so it isn't like this is the first time in recent history a captain has been jailed. A link: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003012581_captain23m.html?syndication=rss

[Indycal]

CNN just reported the rescue of 2 people who were stuck in the hull of the ship!!:)

[bozemanman]

I think this is very interesting from the Costa boards...

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt_BJ

my two cents based on sitting in the Captain's chair for a couple of years and investigating officer for a couple of marine 'incidents' but these are just first thoughts

 

- looking at the overall layout of where the ship was due to go and where it went I have to suspect there was a deviation from the normal course.

 

- tracks show a deviation to port, toward the island that makes no navigational sense

 

* my opinion is this was an electronic error. 'Someone' had reprogrammed the GPS tied to the auto-pilot and had fat fingered a course entry (note the one digit error mentioned by another post), This error turned the ship TOWARD the island rather than north leaving the island safely to the west. (maritime cases are loaded with "radar assisted collision" cases, easily expanded to electronic because folks relied TOO hard on the magic of electrons)

 

* OPINION - SADLY the bridge watch noticed this error WAY too late. (In the vernacular of 'Bridge Resource Management', we call this 'loss of situational awareness) Once detected they notified the Captain who knew they were far off track and getting back on track would cost dollars in either a late arrival or consumption of addition fuel to increase speed.

 

* OPINION - The Captain then saw a short cut ..... a pass between two islands that was narrow but 'just enough' and allowed for minimal loss of time and distance

 

* OPINION - He went for it ..... and learned it was not well charted, because no significant vessels sail thru it!!!!! Oops, turned trying to avoid a rock but the stern swing (a ship turns from the back, your car turns from the front) had him catch the rock "full and by" - he's got a SERIOUS problem now.....

 

* OPINION - Once holed he saw he was close to the port and thought if I can dock the ship the risk is FAR FAR less, so he heads north to the port, only a few miles away while trying to manage the flooding. During this time he tells his crew, do NOT abandon, because I'm going to dock......

 

* the port entrance faces north and he approaches from the south so he must do a 180 degree turn about. Doing so allows enough of the water taken on thru the MASSIVE hole to shift (free surface effect) and the ship lists significantly to starboard resulting in a decision (or an uncontrolled event) to ground the ship just outside the port entrance. (ship damage control . . . )

 

My opinion . . . .

 

Capt BJ,

 

As a fellow USCG Captain Retired, I see the logic of your scenario. One additional factor that puzzles me, however, is the course change shown on the chart found at http://www.seanews.com.tr/article/AC...ational-error/ . This chart shows that the course change occurred at 2210 and news reports indicate that passengers were just beginning their meals when the initial event occurred. Since late dining is advertized as beginning at 2100 and early dining is at 1900, there may be some discrepency in the time zones being reported. Do you suppose that reflects the use of Greenwich Mean Time on the charts? If so, and the course change is the result of "fat fingers," then there would be no reports of the disruption during dinner, as such an error would not cause the noise and listing reported by the diners. Either way, I cannot reconcile a collision in the passage between the rocks of Giglio with the dining times.

 

I know that we will need to wait for the official investigative reports to find out if our speculations have any validity. Knowing how difficult it is on the sea when things start going wrong, I'm just thinking that the Captain and crew must have done something right to have managed the safe evacuation of so many of the passengers, though so sorry to hear of the loss of life.

 

Regards,

MorganMars

[Indycal]

http://www.shipcruise.org/cruise-articles/435-costa-concordia-accident

 

A video replay using AIS (Automated Identification System) transponders information...

[IRL_Joanie]

MSC Poesia did not run aground at Half Moon Cay but at Port Lucaya, Bahamas, the day before it called on Half Mon Cay.

 

Video shows buildings not at HMC: http://youtu.be/-ZQKpFHbZ04

 

Thanks Peter, the only report I saw of it was here on the boards and then it was stated by the poster that it was HMC. I never questioned it..

 

Still counts, in my thoughts of Things Happen in 3's though:(

 

I am concerned though for the first time ever about an incident at sea while I am aboard. I've never been worried before today...I know that I am much safer aboard a ship than I am at home, in a car or a plane, but still something about this horrible incident has me worried for the first time...

 

I will get over the fear/dread that I have right now. But I know that NOW I will take more steps to insure things are at my finger tips in case of an emergency. That I WILL attend all Muster Drills, even if I have to crawl to attend (some ships like NA have a lip that a scooter cannot get over). No longer will I wait in my cabin as I've been told to do (by ships officers) and watch the drill on the TV instead of actually attending one... I will shush anyone in my immediate vicinity to enable that I and my fellow passengers can hear what we need to know, and on and on, but I will be prepared!!

 

Joanie

 

Joanie

[castellina]

I don't know if you can possibly attend enough muster drills to address what happened to the Costa Concordia. The muster drills do not address what to do if the ship tips over and all the lifeboats on one side are not operable. It is amazing that even though the passengers said there was no supervision or instruction that the great majority managed to get off the ship. I am very impressed and those passengers were brilliant in handling this horrible situation.

[mariner]

So much for scenic cruising.

 

It's clear the ship was not sailing at slow speed because the stabilizers automaticly retract at 5 knots or less.

 

Pretty troubling it would appear the watertight doors were not closed. Carnival requires all its masters to close the doors when sailing in restricted waters.

 

Carnival also requires a boat drill before sailing unless there's some extenuating circumstance.

 

It would also appear this was the course the captain had set.

 

There is a black box and all conversations on the bridge are recorded. The preliminary report into the cause should be pretty clear cut.

[RMLincoln]

.......

There is a black box and all conversations on the bridge are recorded. The preliminary report into the cause should be pretty clear cut.

 

I saw photos posted on CNN that showed the retrieval of a "black" box, really it's orange. But the authorities (looked like the Italian Coast Guard) seem to have it now. m--

[cruz chic]

I don't know if you can possibly attend enough muster drills to address what happened to the Costa Concordia. The muster drills do not address what to do if the ship tips over and all the lifeboats on one side are not operable. It is amazing that even though the passengers said there was no supervision or instruction that the great majority managed to get off the ship. I am very impressed and those passengers were brilliant in handling this horrible situation.

Agree 100%. Also to say that doing roll calls at these drill would help is a huge stretch.

[AZWTRLVR]

Sail...I did not know whether or not the captain was on the bridge or not. Everyone was automatically assuming he was and I was only trying to say there were other scenarios possible which might have affected the actions of the captain and the timeline of events.

 

Since posting, I read an article that said originally he wasn't believed to be on the bridge but it was later determined that he was. No question we'll have to wait for the official investigation for answers to many questions.

[RMLincoln]

CNN has reported that the two passengers trapped on board have been rescued to a waiting ambulance. m--

[sail7seas]

So much for scenic cruising.

 

It's clear the ship was not sailing at slow speed because the stabilizers automaticly retract at 5 knots or less.

 

Pretty troubling it would appear the watertight doors were not closed. Carnival requires all its masters to close the doors when sailing in restricted waters.

 

Carnival also requires a boat drill before sailing unless there's some extenuating circumstance.

 

It would also appear this was the course the captain had set.

 

There is a black box and all conversations on the bridge are recorded. The preliminary report into the cause should be pretty clear cut.

 

I saw photos posted on CNN that showed the retrieval of a "black" box, really it's orange. But the authorities (looked like the Italian Coast Guard) seem to have it now. m--

 

 

 

I asked earlier in this thread whether it was true cruise ships have 'black boxes'. Apparently, they do. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

 

 

 

Sail...I did not know whether or not the captain was on the bridge or not. Everyone was automatically assuming he was and I was only trying to say there were other scenarios possible which might have affected the actions of the captain and the timeline of events.

 

Since posting, I read an article that said originally he wasn't believed to be on the bridge but it was later determined that he was. No question we'll have to wait for the official investigation for answers to many questions.

 

 

It was an interesting theory and obviously caught my attention as I chose to read it all and comment. :)

 

Captain is going to have a lot of 'talking' to do. It will probably be quite a while until we hear the results of an investigation but this is a truly horrid event.

 

We all seem quite horrified by it.