Norovirus and ventilation

[zijlweg]

According to this site: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm Norovirus particularly hits on US based cruise lines.

The Italian lines like MSC and Costa do not show up in this list. Strangely enough these lines also allow smoking in the staterooms and therefore have extremely (often 100 % pure) good fresh air circulation in their cabins and public areas.

 

Perhaps Norovirus should be more classified as a "cheap" engineers disease, where fresh air supply is limited, in order to save on heating/airco costs and by simply recirculating the air and germs alike many times over.

 

Just food for thought.....

[CruiserBruce]

Perhaps Norovirus should be more classified as a "cheap" engineers disease, where fresh air supply is limited, in order to save on heating/airco costs and by simply recirculating the air and germs alike many times over.

 

Just food for thought.....

 

This applies to airplanes, where you are probably far more likely to get an unwanted bug.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Until January 2012 HAL permitted smoking in the cabins -- and HAL ships have gotten the Noro Virus. Ventilation was great. All it is takes is for a couple of people to come onto a ship already sick.

[sherryf]

Norovirus isn't an airborne transmitted disease. This argument might work for cold/flu viruses, but not Noro.

[BruceMuzz]

According to this site: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm Norovirus particularly hits on US based cruise lines.

The Italian lines like MSC and Costa do not show up in this list. Strangely enough these lines also allow smoking in the staterooms and therefore have extremely (often 100 % pure) good fresh air circulation in their cabins and public areas.

 

Perhaps Norovirus should be more classified as a "cheap" engineers disease, where fresh air supply is limited, in order to save on heating/airco costs and by simply recirculating the air and germs alike many times over.

 

Just food for thought.....

 

Your first sentence says it all.

NLV is an American illness.

It developed in America, was discovered in America, was named after an American city (Norwalk, Ohio), and exists almost exclusively on ships carrying American passengers.

A higher percentage of the American population suffers from this illness every year than any other country.

Brits, Canadians, and Australians are slowly catching up.

In the rest of the world, it is nearly unknown.

 

By the way, cruise ships all have the same basic ventilation systems. They are all designed and built by the same people in just a few shipyards.

Regardless of nationality or smoking policy, nearly every international cruise vessel mixes an average 35% fresh air into 65% existing air. Your theory doesn't wash.

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

 

Your theory doesn't wash.

 

The "doesn't wash" is the whole problem.

 

[Silvery Seas Cruiser]

Noro-Virus is transmitted by touching surfaces already contaminated with the virus, most especially if you then touch yourr face, eyes, mouth or have open cuts.

 

On ships so many surfaces can be impacted, menus, salt and pepper shakers, door knobs, stair rails,chair arms, elevator buttons, etc. It is really hard to not touch something that an infected person has touched. So the very best known defence is frequent hnd washing or secondarily using hand sanitizers.

 

Noro-Virus has little or nothing to do with ventilation.

[LHT28]

I am not sure it is more on ships with Americans seems Fred Olsen cruises & P & O cruises have had quite a bit of trouble with the Noro virus to a larger extent as well

Maybe they just do not do a very good job of deep cleaning or there are more ships with US people onboard not sure what the answer is

 

I do not want to get it

[Kartgv]

Could the difference be that the US based cruise lines have more stringent reporting requirements than some other countries?

[BruceMuzz]

Could the difference be that the US based cruise lines have more stringent reporting requirements than some other countries?

 

Many countries - especially those in South America and East Asia - have far stricter requirements than the USA.

If a ship has a large Norovirus outbreak before a US port, it is still allowed to visit the port.

In South America and Asia, the ports sometimes refuse to even allow the ship to stop there.

[njhorseman]

According to this site: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm Norovirus particularly hits on US based cruise lines.

The Italian lines like MSC and Costa do not show up in this list. Strangely enough these lines also allow smoking in the staterooms and therefore have extremely (often 100 % pure) good fresh air circulation in their cabins and public areas.

 

Perhaps Norovirus should be more classified as a "cheap" engineers disease, where fresh air supply is limited, in order to save on heating/airco costs and by simply recirculating the air and germs alike many times over.

 

Just food for thought.....

 

Numerous other cruise lines don't show up on the list because you only have to report outbreaks to the CDC if your ship makes a port call in the US. Ships that never enter US ports have no obligation to participate in the CDC's Vessel Sanitation Program or report outbreaks of illness.

 

MSC and Costa itineraries rarely include US ports, lessening the chances of having an outbreak reportable to the CDC.

[njhorseman]

Could the difference be that the US based cruise lines have more stringent reporting requirements than some other countries?

 

The CDC has no jurisdiction over ships that don't enter US ports, so those vessels do not have to report illness outbreaks to the CDC. That's why when reading a CDC report you won't find anything about ships that don't cruise here. It's not about which country has more stringent reporting requirements...it's which about country's data you're looking at.

[Hlitner]

The OP is either badly mis informed or has a personal agenda. So lets discuss his/her post. He/she makes an assumption (which is totally false) that some of the European cruise lines have ships with better ventilation (because they have smokers?). The reality is that most of the major cruise lines use similar marine designs with a similar A/C system. In fact, the op cites Costa which has ships built from the same basic design as some of the Princess and Carnival ships. One reason that more and more cruise lines are banning smoking (in cabins and other inside areas) is because the nature of ship A/C systems means that some of the smoke will be carried to other parts of the ship (they use common A/C returns which allow some return air to flow into other ship areas.

 

As to the comments about Noro, it turns out that many European cruise lines/ships and other ships not calling at US ports are not required to make a Noro report to the CDC (and in many cases to nobody). So the CDC can only report incidents on vessels that happen to be under their jurisdiction. But perhaps the most interesting thing about the OPs post and Norovirus is that Norovirus is generally not an airborne spread virus but rather is generally spread by contact. To use the OPs own source here is a quote from the CDC:

"Norovirus is a very contagious virus that can infect anyone. You can get it from an infected person, contaminated food or water, or by touching contaminated surfaces,"

 

This is why most cruise lines make tremendous efforts to constantly sterilize common surfaces (such as stair railings) with powerful noro-killing chemical agents. On Holland America they go so far as to use a "Code Orange" program which severely restricts passengers access to common areas in the lido buffets during the first 48 hours of any cruise. In simple terms, they replace salt and pepper shakers with individual packets, close off access to many of the buffet areas, and have buffet products served only by crew members (who wear gloves). HA claims they have had a lot of success with this program although it is a bit of an inconvenience for both passengers and crew.

 

 

Oh, and I forget one very interesting fact about the OPs post. He/she cites Costa and MSC as having better ventilation because of smoking in cabins. But the real fact is that both Costa and MSC ban smoking in all passenger cabins (and in many public spaces).

 

Hank

[BruceMuzz]

The CDC has no jurisdiction over ships that don't enter US ports, so those vessels do not have to report illness outbreaks to the CDC. That's why when reading a CDC report you won't find anything about ships that don't cruise here. It's not about which country has more stringent reporting requirements...it's which about country's data you're looking at.

 

Every country on earth requires EVERY ship calling at it's ports to send a sanitation and health report 24 to 48 hours before arrival.

This report requires all details on any illness onboard.

Frequently, local Health officials board the ships to verify the details.

 

If any discrepancies are found (and they do look very hard to find any) there are huge fines for the cruise line and a possible ban from ever calling at that country again.

Any significant numbers on illness very quickly make their way to local newspapers and television.

 

A few years ago when 4 or 5 babies were ill in a remote Chinese village from contaminated milk, CNN had the story the same day - even before the local Chinese networks had it.

 

Does anyone think that any sort of major outbreak on a cruise ship - anywhere in the world - would escape international news coverage?

[njhorseman]

Every country on earth requires EVERY ship calling at it's ports to send a sanitation and health report 24 to 48 hours before arrival.

This report requires all details on any illness onboard.

Frequently, local Health officials board the ships to verify the details.

 

If any discrepancies are found (and they do look very hard to find any) there are huge fines for the cruise line and a possible ban from ever calling at that country again.

Any significant numbers on illness very quickly make their way to local newspapers and television.

 

A few years ago when 4 or 5 babies were ill in a remote Chinese village from contaminated milk, CNN had the story the same day - even before the local Chinese networks had it.

 

Does anyone think that any sort of major outbreak on a cruise ship - anywhere in the world - would escape international news coverage?

 

Of course not...but I'm talking about the legal requirements of who has to report what information to which government agency, not whether CNN will cover a story.

 

Please read the question I was answering, which was :

 

"Originally Posted by Kartgv

Could the difference be that the US based cruise lines have more stringent reporting requirements than some other countries?"

 

Both the question and my reply were about reporting requirements, not news media stories. Some posters apparently don't realize that the CDC is a US government agency that only has jurisdiction over ships making port calls in the US, so you can't read a CDC report and conclude anything about sanitation or disease outbreaks on ships that do not call on US ports. It says nothing about whether other countries have strict or lax requirements relative to the US.

[Hlitner]

One problem we have with this entire Noro topic is that some folks seem to think its unique to Cruise Ships. What is unique is the fact that the CDC requires that ships coming to US ports report any outbreak that exceeds 3% of the total souls onboard. But there is no reporting requirement for airlines (how could they even know), hotels (who would know), trains, and even schools (in some jurisdictions). In fact, Noro is a huge problem in schools that have cafeterias...but most folks will commonly say "there is a stomach virus going around at school." The word Noro is seldom uttered except in the cruise industry.

 

Hank

[PennyAgain]

The public schools in our area have been dealing with a major outbreak of Noro virus and the situation has been aided by the start of winter vacation and closed schools.

 

99.9% of these students have not been anywhere near a cruise ship.

[sail7seas]

One problem we have with this entire Noro topic is that some folks seem to think its unique to Cruise Ships. What is unique is the fact that the CDC requires that ships coming to US ports report any outbreak that exceeds 3% of the total souls onboard. But there is no reporting requirement for airlines (how could they even know), hotels (who would know), trains, and even schools (in some jurisdictions). In fact, Noro is a huge problem in schools that have cafeterias...but most folks will commonly say "there is a stomach virus going around at school." The word Noro is seldom uttered except in the cruise industry.

 

Hank

 

Many of us are aware it is the second most common illness...... second only to the common cold.

 

Most of us realize it is not a 'cruise ship illness'.

It is reported all the time on local TV.... this or that school, nursing home, dorm, church etc