What's wrong with denim?

[DavidTheWonderer]

I certainly do not want to provoke yet another flame war about dress codes. But since dress codes are a recurring theme on the Regent board, I have a question that puzzles me: what is wrong with denim?

 

Please understand that I live my life in denim pants, aka Levis or Wrangler or ..., including when I teach my classes at the University of Toronto. The only exceptions are when I'm on a ship, when they want me to wear non-denim pants in the dining rooms and lounges, and when it is super hot when you will find me in khaki shorts. I don't mind wearing non-denim pants on the ships but the reasoning puzzles me.

 

Also note that I'm not talking about tattered pants, regardless of what they are made of, and certainly not cut-offs. I will agree with practically everybody on this board that this is not acceptable.

 

But denim itself is an honourable cloth, whose name reflects its origins in Nimes France. So if those who don't approve of jeans in the dining rooms or lounges can enlighten me about why, I would appreciate learning about the reasons.

[Responder]

I certainly do not want to provoke yet another flame war about dress codes. But since dress codes are a recurring theme on the Regent board, I have a question that puzzles me: what is wrong with denim?

 

Please understand that I live my life in denim pants, aka Levis or Wrangler or ..., including when I teach my classes at the University of Toronto. The only exceptions are when I'm on a ship, when they want me to wear non-denim pants in the dining rooms and lounges, and when it is super hot when you will find me in khaki shorts. I don't mind wearing non-denim pants on the ships but the reasoning puzzles me.

 

Also note that I'm not talking about tattered pants, regardless of what they are made of, and certainly not cut-offs. I will agree with practically everybody on this board that this is not acceptable.

 

But denim itself is an honourable cloth, whose name reflects its origins in Nimes France. So if those who don't approve of jeans in the dining rooms or lounges can enlighten me about why, I would appreciate learning about the reasons.

 

You'll be sorry you asked..:D

[Threechicks]

Ask Wendy. Isn't she your wife?

[ChatKat in Ca.]

Being a baby boomer, I'd love to wear denim. But, the Country Club dress codes actually say no denim. It's a working man's uniform. Has to do with being Elitist and actually is passe - in my opinion. My husband, who has now shunned suits and ties for the last 20 years as his office attire unless going to an IRS Audit with a client and even then wears slacks and a nice shirt now, would be very happy to dress up in his nice jeans with a stylish shirt and oxford shoes.

[RachelG]

Traditionally, denim was worn as work clothes, and still is. The dress code at the clinic where I work specifically forbids denim. It is casual.

Yes, I know there are fancy and expensive jeans. I happen to own a pair. But I would not wear them to a fine dining type restaurant (though I do see people doing so pretty often these days). The country club where we used to belong also forbade them in the dining rooms.

[Travelcat2]

Denim is great -- wear it all the time. But, it is against the Regent dress code so can't be worn. You would really have to ask Regent.

[Wendy The Wanderer]

Ask Wendy. Isn't she your wife?

 

I'm not getting into this one! I was the one who bought him his first pairs of khaki dockers to go on a cruise!

[WesW]

No advice on Denim wear after 6pm David, but a hearty welcome to Cruise Critic and the Regent Board.

[Swelldame]

OK, call me foolish, but I'll take a crack at an explanation. Please keep in mind I'm talking about traditional perceptions here, and the points expressed may or may not be in line with my opinion unless specifically noted. :D

 

It has to do with dressing appropriately for the occasion and showing respect. Denim is considered to be a casual material suitable for physical work, sports, and leisure. When ones shows up in a nice dining room or more upscale venues, or church or a funeral, it's considered good manners to put effort into one's dress and appearance to say to others, "I spent time and effort to show you I care how you perceive me, and I appreciate you doing the same." Instead of, "Here I am, take me as I am, I don't give a damn what you think: I'm going to be comfortable because it's all about me."

 

It gives a good impression. It displays consideration.

 

Styles come and go and change, and are definitely skewing more casual in society in general. It wasn't so long ago that a man wouldn't consider himself dressed to go outside without a hat.

 

Remember "casual Fridays"? An older gentleman I know who has been very successful in business in his life was very offended when he and some of his board members visited his attorney's offices on a Friday. He and his colleagues were in suits (as the professional gentlemen they purported to be), and all the lawyers were in khakis and golf shirts. He felt very disrespected. "I'm paying you $500 per hour. I'm the CLIENT. And you can't make the effort to put on a tie when you meet with me?" Funny thing, when the recession hit and all the casually dressed young financial workers found themselves applying for jobs again, they started dressing the part, and in many offices casual Fridays have been discontinued. They're figuring out that to get the job, they have to look the part. Traditional barber shops are making a comeback in urban centers too, for the first time since the hippies put them all out of business.

 

Another example I recall is the kerfuffle over the ladies volleyball team that visited the White House to meet President Bush, and most of them turned up in flip-flops. Just not appropriate for the venue.

 

It's all a matter of degrees I suppose. There are many levels of dress (and appropriateness) between cut-offs and tuxedos. Even between nice jeans and dark suits, which is where Regent has placed itself in the evening.

 

One last thing before I duck and run for cover (and here I note this is most definitely in line with my opinion): A well tailored suit is to a woman what lingerie is to a man. :)

[Travelcat2]

That is the most perfect explanation I have ever read. Thank you!

[pacheco18]

That is the most perfect explanation I have ever read. Thank you!

 

Perfect for decades ago. Not for today.

 

Styles change. Perceptions change.

 

When I was a little girl, we could not go into Manhattan without white gloves.

 

My parents went to the theatre with my mom in a cocktail dress and my dad in a suit.

 

Passengers traveled on airplanes dressed up -- men in suits eg. MY father traveled in a prop plane to Europe for 14 hours in a suit and tie!! Yikes.

 

In those days, denim was different. It was, in fact, tantamount to work clothes. It was Lee and Wrangler and Levis.

 

That is not the case today. Some denim is far more upscale and dressy than Dockers or capris.

 

I think these attitudes are simply old fashioned and not at all in tune with the 21st Century.

 

If we want to rely on the traditions of 50 years ago then let's make sure all the women are wearing hats. And don't even think of going without stockings -- declasse in the extreme.

[Responder]

Perfect for decades ago. Not for today.

 

Styles change. Perceptions change.

 

When I was a little girl, we could not go into Manhattan without white gloves.

 

My parents went to the theatre with my mom in a cocktail dress and my dad in a suit.

 

Passengers traveled on airplanes dressed up -- men in suits eg. MY father traveled in a prop plane to Europe for 14 hours in a suit and tie!! Yikes.

 

In those days, denim was different. It was, in fact, tantamount to work clothes. It was Lee and Wrangler and Levis.

 

That is not the case today. Some denim is far more upscale and dressy than Dockers or capris.

 

I think these attitudes are simply old fashioned and not at all in tune with the 21st Century.

 

If we want to rely on the traditions of 50 years ago then let's make sure all the women are wearing hats. And don't even think of going without stockings -- declasse in the extreme.

 

Now you'll be in trouble..:D

[pacheco18]

Now you'll be in trouble..:D

 

I tremble with fear.

[DrHemlock]

Swelldame explains it perfectly. I add my thanks to those of TC.

 

Sure, styles and perceptions change. They go down the drain just like grammar and spelling in recent years leaving mediocrity in their wake, casualties of the new criterion of hyper-casualness in all we say and do.

 

We are sailing on Regent, nor Carnival. Dining room management and staff on Regent ships, as in fine restaurants ashore, work hard to present an elegant environment for our pleasure, to prepare outstanding cuisine from the finest ingredients and to serve us professionally. Is it really such an intrusion into our ever-more-casual (read: slovenly) lives to ask that patrons reflect that same effort and respect not only toward staff but also toward their fellow diners?

 

Personally, I would prefer to wear a wife-beater shirt and backward baseball cap to dinner yet I am able somehow to suppress my personal sartorial desires, to tolerate the discomfort and the implied personal affront of being forced to don trousers and collared shirts, and to go along with the Regent dress code without feeling that my individual liberties and freedoms are being trampled upon.

 

The code is the code. Live with it or cruise with a line whose code (or lack thereof) you prefer. It's an easy choice. The day Regent relaxes the dress code, that's the day I'll be wearing jeans to the dining room. Until then, I pays my money and I brings my good clothes. Shoot, I never get to wear them at home so it's nice to give them some air!

 

Really, hasn't this horse been beaten to death and beyond?

[pacheco18]

Swelldame explains it perfectly. I add my thanks to those of TC.

 

Sure, styles and perceptions change. They go down the drain just like grammar and spelling in recent years leaving mediocrity in their wake, casualties of the new criterion of hyper-casualness in all we say and do.

 

We are sailing on Regent, nor Carnival. Dining room management and staff on Regent ships, as in fine restaurants ashore, work hard to present an elegant environment for our pleasure, to prepare outstanding cuisine from the finest ingredients and to serve us professionally. Is it really such an intrusion into our ever-more-casual (read: slovenly) lives to ask that patrons reflect that same effort and respect not only toward staff but also toward their fellow diners?

 

Personally, I would prefer to wear a wife-beater shirt and backward baseball cap to dinner yet I am able somehow to suppress my personal sartorial desires, to tolerate the discomfort and the implied personal affront of being forced to don trousers and collared shirts, and to go along with the Regent dress code without feeling that my individual liberties and freedoms are being trampled upon.

 

The code is the code. Live with it or cruise with a line whose code (or lack thereof) you prefer. It's an easy choice. The day Regent relaxes the dress code, that's the day I'll be wearing jeans to the dining room. Until then, I pays my money and I brings my good clothes. Shoot, I never get to wear them at home so it's nice to give them some air!

 

Really, hasn't this horse been beaten to death and beyond?

 

Slovenly???

 

A guy in a wrinkled pair of Dockers and polo could be more slovenly than a guy in fabulous denim with say a Tommy Bahama silk shirt. A woman in a pair of beige capris could be more slovenly than a woman in gorgeous black denim with crystals, eg. and fabulous top.

 

 

You are way off the mark IMO.

 

I have no dog in this fight. I follow the dress code on any ship I am on. But the OP asked - what's wrong with denim? The answer is nothing is wrong with denim. Some folks just cannot get beyond a fifty year old connotation.

[Island Cruiser]

Progress seems always to advance slowly. So this is a totally appropriate thread. Just one small step toward bringing Regent's dress code in line with a growing number of it's customers. It is clearly apparent that American dress standards are getting more casual every year. Traditionalists hate that. But they can't stop it. "Progress" is in the direction of casual, casual, casual. I, like David, live in jeans and, in Fred's case, shorts. We entertain in jeans and shorts. We are entertained in jeans and Fred's shorts. Local restaurants are dropping dress codes to exist. You all know the drill. The cruise lines, even the luxury lines, will follow as their customers vote with their pocketbooks.

[Responder]

Progress seems always to advance slowly. So this is a totally appropriate thread. Just one small step toward bringing Regent's dress code in line with a growing number of it's customers. It is clearly apparent that American dress standards are getting more casual every year. Traditionalists hate that. But they can't stop it. "Progress" is in the direction of casual, casual, casual. I, like David, live in jeans and, in Fred's case, shorts. We entertain in jeans and shorts. We are entertained in jeans and Fred's shorts. Local restaurants are dropping dress codes to exist. You all know the drill. The cruise lines, even the luxury lines, will follow as their customers vote with their pocketbooks.

 

You got it. :D

[DrHemlock]

Pacheco 18 is correct about what could be slovenly, but not about what generally is...at least not in my experience. Fabulous denim? Yeah, maybe. But who will be the arbiter at the dining room door regarding which pair of jeans is "fabulous" and which is workmanlike? That should not be the maitre d's job. Just publish a policy and make it apply to everyone.

 

A cruise ship is not a democracy. They own it; we don't. They should be free to set their own business policies, right? If we take our business elsewhere because of their policy, then they will suffer, right? They will be forced to change their policies or go out of business if those who want them to change are speaking for the majority. Until then, it's "No shirts, no shoes, no service" in the metaphorical sense. That's their right.

 

Island Cruiser is correct, of course, right up to the final line...and may well be correct on that line as well. Maybe everything will change in the future. After all, we all were schlepping our tuxedos and formal gowns onto Regent cruises up until a very few years ago. The majority -- or at least a sufficiently vocal minority -- wanted that to change, so it did.

 

As I wrote, when Regent changes the code then I'll wear jeans to dinner despite my personal preferences. Until then, this entire discussion is moot. The code is the code.

 

I would like to hear FDR's opinion but he is probably as weary of this discussion as I was up until today when, for the first time, I read a wonderfully cogent and (for me) convincing presentation of why the dress code is important.

[Island Cruiser]

DrHemlock: God that sounds fatal!!!

 

I agree with you totally. And we, too, dress to code and always will. And we are delighted we have progressed (my take) to elegant casual on Regent. And we are amused when the minority of posters who don't really like elegant casual post that, yes, elegant casual is the policy BUT there is the captain's reception where a more formal attaire is more appropriate. NO IT ISN'T MORE APPROPRIATE. Elegant casual at all times means just that. Or they post WHAT ABOUT AN OFFICER's TABLE? Elegant casual is still appropriate at all times, even at an officer's table. We are delighted by the trend toward casual because it is more people friendly. More comfortable. Easier. Less luggage. More consistent with our life style. Fred still sets an elegant table--in shorts. He serves elegant food--in shorts. We entertain in style--casually. And we will always enjoy the best of all worlds, total comfort and total class, on an elegant casual cruise.

[ChatKat in Ca.]

DrHemlock: God that sounds fatal!!!

 

We are delighted by the trend toward casual because it is more people friendly. More comfortable. Easier. Less luggage. More consistent with our life style..

 

I could see a dress code as I mentioned on another recent thread that is casual and for events becoming quite popular called "Denim and Diamonds". Trying to pack for a 30 day cruise with two changes of clothing per day - or 14 outfits for one person within 100 lbs of luggage for a flight to Europe is a chore. I don't think it's about "costumes" as formal nights were.

 

We were recently invited to dinner at a very upscale country club. Everyone was dressed very impressively. It was a Saturday night and while most of the men were in coats - very few were in ties. Most wore jackets and some wore sweaters. Ladies were all fashionably dressed. The dining room was much like the Grand Dining Room or Compass Rose. Honestly, there is a time and place for every kind of dress. But to travel with a suitcase of clothing, shoes and accessories - even mix and match does make the travel experience more tiring with all the additional security, plane changes and lack of assistance at the airports. We were on a cruise in October and flying home from Budapest with 3 suitcases and 2 carryons at 4:30 in the morning when there were no skycaps available was very difficult. Even with "smart packing" and wardrobing it would be nice to have a dress code that allowed for easier clothing.

[OrpingtonT]

Trying to pack for a 30 day cruise with two changes of clothing per day - or 14 outfits for one person within 100 lbs of luggage for a flight to Europe is a chore. I don't think it's about "costumes" as formal nights were.

 

 

Surely you are not suggesting that we shouldn't wear "an outfit" more than once?

[DavidTheWonderer]

Although I've been reading this board for some years, I've avoided posting to it. So I knew my original question that started this thread could erupt into a flame war. In fact, many of you responded with thoughtful posts that really have helped me think this through, with only one totally off-topic flame about capris and women with fat ankles. The result is that I am more comfortable with the dress codes than I was before, although as I said I have not minded wearing non-denim pants in the restaurants and lounges. Thanks for the help. I'll try to briefly summarise what I have perhaps figured out.

 

I'll use an analogy. In days past, people would ask somebody to do something or other, and would include the phrase "if it pleases you." This has now been contracted to just "please" which we use in our everyday speech all the time. If somebody asks me if I would like a beer, and I respond "yes please" there really isn't any formal meaning to the "please". However we all agree that it is a social lubricant in our conversations, indicating that we are conforming to the social norms in our speech. And those social norms are extremely important in helping us to get along with each other.

 

Non-denim pants, then, is sort of like "please": a social norm which helps us get along with each other. Realising this, with your help on this board, I am now more comfortable with adhering to whatever dress code is in effect wherever I happen to be.

 

Finally, for the question of whether I would like a beer, the answer is almost always "Yes please!"

[ridolphi]

two outfits a day per person is still two outfits a day, whether they be nice slacks or a skirt for evening or jeans for evening. So going more casual doesn't lessen the amount of clothing you bring, just what you bring. Most people will still bring accessories and shoes, casual tops or shirts and then nicer ones for the evening. What is the difference between nice slacks for evening and "nice" jeans as far as the room they take in the suitcase?

 

We follow the dress code, and personally hope it doesn't go more casual in the evening, but that is our opinion. On a cruise last year that was more than 15 days, there were two "formal optional" nights, and amazingly, I would say more than half the passengers chose to dress formally, many men in tuxes or suits, the women in beautiful slack outfits, or skirts or dresses. It was kind of nice for a change, festive and elegant, which like many have said, we just don't get to do anymore.

 

But, the point being, going more casual doesn't change the amount of clothing most people will bring.....unless one plans to dress in the morning and not change I guess. And point being....there are plenty of other options out there, no one is being forced to go on Regent if they prefer something more casual.

[Threechicks]

I'm not getting into this one! I was the one who bought him his first pairs of khaki dockers to go on a cruise!

Wendy and David, my response was meant as a joke. I have no intention of getting into the dress code wars. Elsie

[UUNetBill]

Some social conventions live on, some don't. Yes, dress (and behavior as well, it seems) has gotten increasingly more casual over at least the last 50 years that I'm aware of...

 

Good points have been made on both sides of the fence. White gloves to go into Manhattan? Not any more. Flying in a suit or dress? Not any more. Yes, these things change, and some people welcome that change. Yet some don't.

 

As David stated about saying "please" - apparently, it's more acceptable to NOT say please, or thank you, or to refer to a couple as "you guys" than it was 10, 20, or even 30 years ago. Do we still say "bless you" when someone sneezes? Do we really think that by blessing them we can prevent demons from entering their body and stealing their soul?? Of course not - but we continue to do it out of politeness. And I'll continue to abide by the dress code of whatever establishment I visit, be it a restaurant, friend's home, or cruise ship. It's this thin veneer of civility that helps keep things together, I think.

 

Bottom line - I agree that society changes, but I also applaud and support a company's effort to maintain whatever standard they feel is appropriate. I'll abide by their standard if it suits me, or I'll go elsewhere if it doesn't. That, to me, is the polite way to do things.

 

:D