Why the Navy Ships Don't Seem to Get Norovirus

[johhnnyt]

It's an interesting article, the way I read it is their secret is prevention/isolation of the symptoms rather than damage control once its onboard

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/11/health/navy-norovirus

[memory-minus]

"Welcome aboard! Champagne? Mimosa? Please step to the left for your complimentary inoculation and medical screening."

 

As inconvenient as norovirus and its effects are, I would personally rather not submit to that level of control from X or any other cruise line. IMHO, the ideal answer is to offer full value vouchers (upon confirmation by a doctor, of course) for self-selecting and just being honest about your symptoms. The pressure caused by inflexible refund policies or complicated travel insurance claims causes sick people to hide their symptoms in an effort to "enjoy their vacation." I know I would.

[johhnnyt]

If a cruise line was more proactive in looking for symptoms, I think they might catch some of these early.

 

The other part of it is, if they promoted looking for it early it would bring out every hypochondriac on board to the medical facility with every real and imagined symptom around

 

The full value vouchers (upon confirmation by a doctor, of course) is a great idea though as everyone wins on that one

[spookwife]

It's an interesting article, the way I read it is their secret is prevention/isolation of the symptoms rather than damage control once its onboard

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/11/health/navy-norovirus

 

let's just say isolation on a Big Grey Ugly Thing is NOT as much fun as isolation in even an interior stateroom. no room service, No booze, no TV and absolutely no private bathroom! heheheh

[RDC1]

If all the passengers were doing 6 month cruises, just like a typical Navy deployment. All passenger on a given cruise were from the port the cruise ship left from and did not have to fly or do any other kind of mass transit to get there. If the passengers had to report to a given sport where they had a supervisor and co-workers that would notice if they were ill.

 

Then I suspect cruise ships rates for Novo would drop significantly. Just as cruise ship crew have much lower rates, even on ship with major breakouts.

[memory-minus]

The other part of it is, if they promoted looking for it early it would bring out every hypochondriac on board to the medical facility with every real and imagined symptom around

 

The full value vouchers (upon confirmation by a doctor, of course) is a great idea though as everyone wins on that one

 

This is a good point, but perhaps the threat of quarantine will reduce the hypochondriac factor. I just can't imagine the cost of vouchers outweighs the extreme negative press from a full-blown outbreak. Besides, in most cases of norovirus where they cut the trip short, they give some type of voucher to everyone on board regardless!

[Maligator]

I had a co-worker who caused us to raise our eyebrows when he used his napkin to pick up salt & pepper shakers, etc, on the table. He was in the navy and told us bugs spread like wildfire. This technique kept him from getting sick again.

 

To this day, I use that ideology in my daily life, though not to that extreme. I don't touch door handles or community pens without washing my hands shortly thereafter. I use my feet, knuckles or hips to open doors and such. Cut my sick days down to just a few a year. I think this has kept me illness-free on our cruises, too.

[miched]

If the cruise lines allowed the employees to enforce the rules it would greatly reduce the problem.

 

Many times a attendant will be in a restroom to open the door. Passengers will walk out without washing their hands. Asked the attendant about it and was told that we can't do anything.

 

Seen people reusing a glass or filling up a personal bottle at a bev station. Was told that we can't do anything.

 

People using their fingers at the buffet. Same answer, we can't do anything.

 

The problem is those passengers that caused the problems because they don't want to be responsible or feel that they are excluded from rules that are an insult to them and are quick to blame the cruise lines if they get the virus.

 

 

.🌅🚢🍸🍻

[phoenix_dream]

Let's be honest (and realistic). One of the reasons cruise ships are in the news so much for this topic is that they are required to report it after a certain percentage of people onboard are sick. That report goes straight to the news, if it is significant enough. I seriously doubt if a US military ship that encountered such an issue is going to be publicizing it world-wide. If it got really big, yes, then I would imagine it would get out. But I don't care how much you clean or don't clean, wash your hands, isolate yourself, or whatever. That virus is virulent, and it will spread despite precautions. According to the CDC, you can be contagious for up to TWO WEEKS past your initial outbreak, long after you are back to feeling well. I doubt the Navy isolates their crew for two weeks.

 

I am not anti-military (heavens no, my son was a Marine stationed on an aircraft carrier!), nor do I doubt that their approach does a better job than the cruise lines at limiting the spread. But just because CNN runs an article does not mean it is necessarily all it is presented to be.

 

Thanks for posting - it was an interesting read.

[NAVFAM]

After 20+ years in the Fleet and many 1000’s of sea-days aboard 5 Carriers, 2 Battleships and various small boys, I can say that only once did I see a large gastrointestinal outbreak.

 

That was following a port visit to Karachi, Pakistan in the 80’s. If you’ve ever walked the streets of Karachi, you’ll understand how gastrointestinal issues might be commonplace.

 

Maybe I wasn’t watching, but I don’t recall any large scale isolation. In fact it was common-place after that Karachi port call to see a great many sailors in passageways with a roll of TP in their hand. There were always at least two rolls in my desk drawer. If we were to “isolate” everyone with symptoms, we would have had to drop the hook and wait it out. Catapult shot s didn’t mix well with gastrointestinal distress, so it did impact the flight schedule somewhat.

 

Sick call and even “light duty” was usually a last resort for most of the crew, because you were viewed as a malingerer. If you couldn’t do your job, then someone else had to do it for you. That didn’t go over well in the crew berthing compartments or junior officer bunk-rooms.

 

Clean, clean, clean everyday & all day; but living in such close quarters made isolation impossible. With crews being a cross-section of society, weighted heavily middle class & below, hygiene was often problematic. Google “G.I. Shower” to see how proper hygiene was occasionally encouraged. I doubt anybody can get away with that these days. It was effective, however.

 

There is a lot of self-serving BS in the CNN article, but the USN tried hard to keep people healthy. From what I saw of the UK, Australian & Canadian navies; they devoted comparable effort. However, given the close quarters and uncomfortable conditions, I have no idea how we escaped the Noro threat. On the other hand, our port visits were relatively few and far between; so there might be something there.

 

On the surface, I see similar efforts on Celebrity. What goes on behind the scenes is not readily visible, however bad press virtually guarantees considerable attention to the problem.

 

On the other hand, I’ve regularly observed a significant number of passengers who simply are not interested in washing their hands after using the public restrooms. I imagine washing up after using cabin restrooms is similarly entertained. And of course, we are usually making port calls more days than not.

 

MARK

Edited February 14, 2014 by NAVFAM

[Dizney]

Yes, my dad spoke of the showers for those with less than desirable hygiene practices. He mentioned scrub brushes too! :eek:

He spent 20 years active duty on Midway mostly.

 

After 20+ years in the Fleet and many 1000’s of sea-days aboard 5 Carriers, 2 Battleships and various small boys, I can say that only once did I see a large gastrointestinal outbreak.

 

That was following a port visit to Karachi, Pakistan in the 80’s. If you’ve ever walked the streets of Karachi, you’ll understand how gastrointestinal issues might be commonplace.

 

Maybe I wasn’t watching, but I don’t recall any large scale isolation. In fact it was common-place after that Karachi port call to see a great many sailors in passageways with a roll of TP in their hand. There were always at least two rolls in my desk drawer. If we were to “isolate” everyone with symptoms, we would have had to drop the hook and wait it out. Catapult shot s didn’t mix well with gastrointestinal distress, so it did impact the flight schedule somewhat.

 

Sick call and even “light duty” was usually a last resort for most of the crew, because you were viewed as a malingerer. If you couldn’t do your job, then someone else had to do it for you. That didn’t go over well in the crew berthing compartments or junior officer bunk-rooms.

 

Clean, clean, clean everyday & all day; but living in such close quarters made isolation impossible. With crews being a cross-section of society, weighted heavily middle class & below, hygiene was often problematic. Google “G.I. Shower” to see how proper hygiene was occasionally encouraged. I doubt anybody can get away with that these days. It was effective, however.

 

There is a lot of self-serving BS in the CNN article, but the USN tried hard to keep people healthy. From what I saw of the UK, Australian & Canadian navies; they devoted comparable effort. However, given the close quarters and uncomfortable conditions, I have no idea how we escaped the Noro threat. On the other hand, our port visits were relatively few and far between; so there might be something there.

 

On the surface, I see similar efforts on Celebrity. What goes on behind the scenes is not readily visible, however bad press virtually guarantees considerable attention to the problem.

 

On the other hand, I’ve regularly observed a significant number of passengers who simply are not interested in washing their hands after using the public restrooms. I imagine washing up after using cabin restrooms is similarly entertained. And of course, we are usually making port calls more days than not.

 

MARK

[Maligator]

Bottom line for me is that when you consider the percentages of sick to not sick. For instance, the recent outbreak on Caribbean Princess sickened 172 passengers and crew. Assuming a full load and compliment of crew, that's 172 out of 4280, which is just a hair over 4%. Compare that to your average school or large business office, where little booger-eaters and their parents are walking disease vectors.

 

I'll take my chances on a cruise any day.

[phoenix_dream]

Mark, thank you for your service.

 

I think your mention of port calls brings a couple other factors to mind. Unlike military ships, cruise ships call on various ports over the course of a week. The passengers disembark and are then subject to whatever viruses are running around each port. The other point is that also unlike military ships, cruise ships are turning over virtually ALL of their passengers every 7 or so days. Yes, crew comes on and off military ships, but certainly not the sheer numbers that change on civilian cruises, nor with the same frequency. When you consider those odds, it's really amazing that these outbreaks are not more common than they are!

[robsaw]

Comparing a military ship with multi-month crew rotations and cruise-ships that switch 3000+ passengers a week is simply meaningless.

 

Preventative measures are one thing but when the potential exposure level is completely different it really is irrelevant.

[jcrandle]

I believe that it is the required reporting, with the news media visibility that give the impression that noro is rampant on cruise ships. If the same reporting were required of child care and nursing homes, I suspect that cruise ships would rank a distant third.

[riclop]

It's an interesting article, the way I read it is their secret is prevention/isolation of the symptoms rather than damage control once its onboard

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/11/health/navy-norovirus

Lots more peolple on a cruise ship.

[kevinyork]

If the cruise lines allowed the employees to enforce the rules it would greatly reduce the problem.

 

 

 

Many times a attendant will be in a restroom to open the door. Passengers will walk out without washing their hands. Asked the attendant about it and was told that we can't do anything.

 

 

 

Seen people reusing a glass or filling up a personal bottle at a bev station. Was told that we can't do anything.

 

 

 

People using their fingers at the buffet. Same answer, we can't do anything.

 

 

 

The problem is those passengers that caused the problems because they don't want to be responsible or feel that they are excluded from rules that are an insult to them and are quick to blame the cruise lines if they get the virus.

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

Totally agree. They should include rules about sanitary behaviour in their terms and conditions then allow staff to enforce them. If a passenger refuses or complains....call security. Its passengers such as this that cruise lines dont want onboard anyway.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums mobile app

[phoenix_dream]

I hate when people are ignorant about following good sanitary practice, but to expect the cruise ship to enforce that to any extent? Come on, that would be crazy. Don't wash my hands after using the bathroom? Maybe I am allergic to the soap and have already used my own personal hand sanitizer. Maybe I only went into the stall to adjust my clothing and used a paper towel to open and close the door. Using my hands on the buffet? Does it count if I grab a piece of bread where there are tongs, but I didn't touch anything else but my own bread? Or a piece of fruit? Or a piece of cheese? Or only if I touch something that someone else may want to eat? Refuse to use the hand sanitizer on the way into the MDR? Maybe I have a skin condition. Maybe when I touch those menus that everyone else is also touching that hand sanitizer is pretty useless anyway! (I personally bring my own and use it also AFTER I order my food). What if I sneeze in the hallway but don't cover by mouth? Or maybe I sneeze and cover my mouth with my hand and then touch the elevator button, when I really should be sneezing into the crook of my elbow instead? Is a crew member walking by supposed to report me to his/her boss or turn me in? No way is this going to happen.

 

I think a much better idea is to have some more, and more prominent signage that goes up around the food areas. It would not solve the problem but could help. Beyond that, unless someone is really, really being obscenely nasty about what they are doing the cruise lines can't be expected to police such things. Frankly, as much as some of that stuff disgusts me and I would absolutely never do it, I would not want to be on a cruise line where the crew was watching and policing me that much.

[daisymay1960]

Hand sanitisers can lull people into a false sense of security , they are not a substitue for soap and water. In fact research has shown santisers do not stop the spread of some viruses such as norovirus .

 

If people are using them alongside washing their hands as normal then thats ok , but some people will think that they just using the sanitisers is just as good or even better , and this is a big problem .

 

Of course keeping your hands clean stops you passng on any germs but of course doesnt keep you safe from other peoples !

[jimmy2x]

Lots more peolple on a cruise ship.

 

Not necessarily. An aircraft carrier with the airwing embarked will have in excess of 5000 sailors.

 

I suspect the biggest reason for the apparent discrepancy is that USN sailors are far younger than most cruise ship passengers. And no kids.

 

USN, Retired

[upwarduk]

-----as cruise ship crew have much lower rates---

 

They don't play in the Casino either!!!

 

In 20 cruises. I have never contracted Noro, neither am I a casino player.:p

I am sure a new pack of cards isn't used every day.

Are the machines sanitised in 'deap cleans?'

[cbr663]

I think one of the greatest challenges with sanitary practices is that most people think that it isn't their problem. Everyone else has unsanitary practices, not them.

 

Washing your hands after using the washroom is not very effective if you are not washing them properly. Merely making them wet, adding soap, a quick couple of rubs and rinsing isn't enough. It's a false sense of security. Washing your hands doesn't destroy the virus - it merely rinses it off your hands and down the sink.

 

Same goes for toilet procedures. How many people actually put the toilet seat cover down before they flush? I can't tell you how many homes I have been in and have seen bathroom counters littered with personal products and toothbrushes in such close proximity to the toilet. If you are flushing with the cover open, just think of all that over spray.

 

And how about how many times people touch their nose in the run of a day? I read somewhere that the average person touches their nose about 5 times an hour.

 

Also remember that a clean cabin is not necessarily a disinfected cabin. The procedures to disinfect are very different than those that clean. Crew members are working under tight time lines and more often than not, they also may not follow the rules to the letter. They are people after all and also play a roll in the spread of the illness.

[Clydesmom7865]

As someone who also was in the Navy there is two other issues that you are not considering:

 

1) service members are technically "government property" and therefore the government can enforce a lot more cleanliness standards than private citizens who are paying to sail. Another issue that solves it was mentioned i.e. the GI shower. When you have a crew mate who has less than desirable hygiene the fellow shipmates deal with it and there are few if any consequences. On a cruise ship other passengers can't do that and often the crew takes an attitude of "we can't do anything" out of not wanting to lose the revenue from an unhappy cruiser. The government has being happy at or near the bottom list of their concerns when it comes to hygiene and cleanliness.

 

2) service members aboard ship live together for months to years. Unlike cruisers who might be on board for up to 28 days. When you put animals or humans in a close environment eventually the immune system builds up from the continuous exposure to each other and the bugs in that environment so they become more resistant to getting sick. Cruisers are on board with each other for as little as a few days and as clean as that cabin looks after the previous occupant left, we all know that not ever cabin attendant cleans to the same standard. All it takes is a less than thorough job in cabins where the occupants don't have good hand washing or hygiene combined with a constant influx and departure of new immune systems for the chance of an outbreak of SOMETHING to get a foothold that even the heartiest of travelers cannot overcome.

[smitty4971]

Sailors are experts at cleaning.

 

That's why they make such good housewives after their service!

 

;)

[BecciBoo]

Good article, but the key there is nobody can force passengers to do the right thing....in the Navy, you do or you are disciplined. It's their job!

 

Cruise ship passengers just have their grubby hand slapped and they go their way continuing their bad habits.

 

I actually think cruise ships are more thoroughly cleaned than the Navy ships. Don't we see that on every single cruise, every day??? I do on RCCL at least. I've seen the same brass banister rail cleaned and polished every single day by the same person...I took special note of it.

 

The passengers are the culprits here and they will never change their tunes. If it wasn't important enough to wash up after every visit to the head before, why would it be during an outbreak? Just sayin..........filthy pigs;)