This Thread Is To Be Used For All Discussions About HAL's On Board Smoking Policies

[hrhdhd]

It would be ridiculous to allot one side to smokers.

 

What I wrote is that HAL should designate a side for nonsmokers. While the other side would allow smoking, it certainly wouldn't be required. Nonsmokers could book on that side, as they do now, and could get a smoker nearby, as they could now.

 

Let's say I prefer cabins on the port side. I find out the starboard side on HAL is nonsmoking. I will have to make a decision about whether I want to guarantee no smokers nearby or whether I want to roll the dice (again, as everyone does now).

 

And it's not, frankly, the end of the world to be on the starboard side even though if I may prefer the port side. :rolleyes: I have to put my priorities in an order.

Edited January 12, 2015 by hrhdhd

[sammiedawg]

Non smokers would have to accept they may have smoking neighbors? How many do you think would do that, unless they got a great deal on that cabin in the smoking section? HAL would end up losing money.

 

I agree with the poster talking about the stages of grief....negotiating. It is only a matter of time for HAL to decide to do what the other lines are doing. Most other lines initiated a no wine policy before HAL. HAL is a little slow, but they will get with the program in time.

 

I'm a health care professional and had lots of training in the five stages of grief,or stages of death and dying. The negotiation stage was termed the bargaining stage, the client grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to change the inevitable. Bargaining is underway on cruise critic but it won't work.

The half of one side smoking arrangement will not be implemented, it will never work. The smoking numbers fluctuate on every booking, there is no way to predict demand.

American society settled the issue of public smoking a couple of decades ago. There was and is no negotiation. Smoking is banned in American public spaces. Holland America will follow suit and ban all balcony smoking, hopefully this year. I think they will ban casino smoking. They will create an indoor smoking den of sorts and there will be a designated side of an open deck for smokers.

I think it is time to start a pool predicting when the announcement will be made. I say June of this year. I'd love to be wrong and have it happen earlier.

[CruiseWhere]

I'm a health care professional and had lots of training in the five stages of grief,or stages of death and dying. The negotiation stage was termed the bargaining stage, the client grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to change the inevitable. Bargaining is underway on cruise critic but it won't work.

The half of one side smoking arrangement will not be implemented, it will never work. The smoking numbers fluctuate on every booking, there is no way to predict demand.

American society settled the issue of public smoking a couple of decades ago. There was and is no negotiation. Smoking is banned in American public spaces. Holland America will follow suit and ban all balcony smoking, hopefully this year. I think they will ban casino smoking. They will create an indoor smoking den of sorts and there will be a designated side of an open deck for smokers.

I think it is time to start a pool predicting when the announcement will be made. I say June of this year. I'd love to be wrong and have it happen earlier.

 

Thank you!!! Well said!!!

[LMaxwell]

I'm a health care professional and had lots of training in the five stages of grief,or stages of death and dying. The negotiation stage was termed the bargaining stage, the client grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to change the inevitable. Bargaining is underway on cruise critic but it won't work.

The half of one side smoking arrangement will not be implemented, it will never work. The smoking numbers fluctuate on every booking, there is no way to predict demand.

American society settled the issue of public smoking a couple of decades ago. There was and is no negotiation. Smoking is banned in American public spaces. Holland America will follow suit and ban all balcony smoking, hopefully this year. I think they will ban casino smoking. They will create an indoor smoking den of sorts and there will be a designated side of an open deck for smokers.

I think it is time to start a pool predicting when the announcement will be made. I say June of this year. I'd love to be wrong and have it happen earlier.

I think you're pretty accurate calling June [emoji568]

[sail7seas]

I'm a health care professional and had lots of training in the five stages of grief,or stages of death and dying. The negotiation stage was termed the bargaining stage, the client grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to change the inevitable. Bargaining is underway on cruise critic but it won't work.

The half of one side smoking arrangement will not be implemented, it will never work. The smoking numbers fluctuate on every booking, there is no way to predict demand.

American society settled the issue of public smoking a couple of decades ago. There was and is no negotiation. Smoking is banned in American public spaces. Holland America will follow suit and ban all balcony smoking, hopefully this year. I think they will ban casino smoking. They will create an indoor smoking den of sorts and there will be a designated side of an open deck for smokers.

I think it is time to start a pool predicting when the announcement will be made. I say June of this year. I'd love to be wrong and have it happen earlier.

 

Thank you for this post.

I hope you are right and wrong....... right HAL will ban smoking on balconies during 2015 and wrong it won't be until June. :)

 

[cruz chic]

June sounds like a winner. That will be a very happy day :).

 

Sammiedawg, your post is excellent.

Edited January 12, 2015 by cruz chic

[erewhon]

I think you're pretty accurate calling June [emoji568]

 

Hopefully it will be before June.

[sppunk]

I'm a health care professional and had lots of training in the five stages of grief,or stages of death and dying. The negotiation stage was termed the bargaining stage, the client grasping at straws in a desperate attempt to change the inevitable. Bargaining is underway on cruise critic but it won't work.

The half of one side smoking arrangement will not be implemented, it will never work. The smoking numbers fluctuate on every booking, there is no way to predict demand.

American society settled the issue of public smoking a couple of decades ago. There was and is no negotiation. Smoking is banned in American public spaces. Holland America will follow suit and ban all balcony smoking, hopefully this year. I think they will ban casino smoking. They will create an indoor smoking den of sorts and there will be a designated side of an open deck for smokers.

I think it is time to start a pool predicting when the announcement will be made. I say June of this year. I'd love to be wrong and have it happen earlier.

 

+1

 

June sounds about right. Six months before Kdam sails, which is when the fleet wide policy like it takes effect.

[freestyling]

After posting earlier in this thread stating that I have not had a problem with smoke on balcony...well ..it happened. Just back from a quick 7 day on the NA and had a cigar smoker next to me and on the balcony above me! I can now clearly state that cigar smoke does "hang" in the air both in port and when cruising. I am hoping that cigar and cigarette smoking on balconies will be stopped soon by HAL

[LindaM]

What I wrote is that HAL should designate a side for nonsmokers. While the other side would allow smoking, it certainly wouldn't be required. Nonsmokers could book on that side, as they do now, and could get a smoker nearby, as they could now.

 

Let's say I prefer cabins on the port side. I find out the starboard side on HAL is nonsmoking. I will have to make a decision about whether I want to guarantee no smokers nearby or whether I want to roll the dice (again, as everyone does now).

 

And it's not, frankly, the end of the world to be on the starboard side even though if I may prefer the port side. :rolleyes: I have to put my priorities in an order.

 

Your idea isn't logical. If only 20% of the ship smokes, why should an entire side be devoted to them, and only one side to non smokers? Why should a non smoker be stuck on the smoking side because they booked late. And, how late is late??? Like I stated earlier, we booked well over a year and had one suitable cabin to choose from. You are implying I should book as soon as the itinerary comes out, to assure my spot. If this idea was logical, don't you think HAL would have done this??? You are implying your priorities are the most logical for all of us. I don't care what side of the ship I'm on, but if people do care, I'm not going to roll my eyes and think there is something wrong with their priorities.

 

I will roll the dice and assume that most people on the itineraries I choose will be non smokers because they are able to pay big bucks for a cruise, except for the sprinkling of Europeans, who seem to still think smoking is safe. Maybe they don't have all the pollution in their air, which exacerbates COPD/cancer.

 

Most importantly, HAL WILL ban smoking. Now my hopes are up, because people mentioned June. We had a "mole" who let us know about the wine....wish this mole would come forword and drop some hints about the smoking!

[richwmn]

Your idea isn't logical. If only 20% of the ship smokes, why should an entire side be devoted to them, and only one side to non smokers? Why should a non smoker be stuck on the smoking side because they booked late. And, how late is late??? Like I stated earlier, we booked well over a year and had one suitable cabin to choose from. You are implying I should book as soon as the itinerary comes out, to assure my spot. If this idea was logical, don't you think HAL would have done this??? You are implying your priorities are the most logical for all of us. I don't care what side of the ship I'm on, but if people do care, I'm not going to roll my eyes and think there is something wrong with their priorities.

 

I will roll the dice and assume that most people on the itineraries I choose will be non smokers because they are able to pay big bucks for a cruise, except for the sprinkling of Europeans, who seem to still think smoking is safe. Maybe they don't have all the pollution in their air, which exacerbates COPD/cancer.

 

Most importantly, HAL WILL ban smoking. Now my hopes are up, because people mentioned June. We had a "mole" who let us know about the wine....wish this mole would come forword and drop some hints about the smoking!

Actually your response is the one that is not logical. You, and others, continue to express the problem as "black and white" where this issue contains many shades of gray. While you contend that the split is 20% smokers and 80% that can't stand to be around smoke, the split is more like 20% smokers, 60% tolerant to various degrees, and 20% that can't stand to be around smoke.

Allowing one side to be guaranteed to be smoke free gives the 20% a place they can book that will satisfy them. It may not be the side they prefer, but nobody gets everything they want.

Smokers would be on the other side and would also have many choices of cabins. They too, might not get the side of the ship they prefer but we all have to make choices.

The rest of the ship would be filled with the 60% who, for what ever reason, don't care and are not bothered by smoke and smokers. These people are out there, but generally don't respond to smoking threads because it doesn't effect them.

As far as your Prinsendam cruise, you said you had only one cabin that met your requirements to book. What would you want HAL to do? Guarantee that you could get your choice of cabins whenever you book, moving people who had already booked if the happen to have booked your cabin? I seem to remember Sail7seas mentioning one time that she changed weeks on a cruise in order to get the cabin she wanted.

[Loujul]

I think the cruise lines are crazy for banning smoking on balconies because now smokers congregate in more confined spaces such as casinos, pool areas, and designated outdoor areas. If smoking was allowed on balconies, there would be less smoke in these areas, which would benefit all of us who don't smoke. I can't go into the casinos anymore because the smoke is so thick. I think the lines should reconsider their choices or make their ventilation system more efficient.

[LMaxwell]

The rest of the ship would be filled with the 60% who, for what ever reason, don't care and are not bothered by smoke and smokers.

 

Let's assume your made up and based on nothing statistic is accurate for a moment: If you asked this silent majority if they had a preference between a smokey area or a non-smokey area what do you suppose they might answer?

[richwmn]

Let's assume your made up and based on nothing statistic is accurate for a moment: If you asked this silent majority if they had a preference between a smokey area or a non-smokey area what do you suppose they might answer?

I am not sure why you think that your "made up and based on nothing statistic" is accurate either. If you have taken any statistics courses you would find that nothing has a sharp cut off point. In this case, several people have posted on this, and other threads, that they are not bothered by smoke and smokers.

As far as what this group might answer - again it would vary. In my case if I had a balcony I would really not care. Given a choice, others might ask for the non smoking side but be ok with it if given the smoking side.

[Hlitner]

When folks start tossing around statistics, it is helpful to look at statistics as they apply to cruisers....not the population as a whole. For the moment, lets keep this to the USA since the CDC does publish some interesting and up-to-date statistics. It is now estimated that approximately 18% of all adults (in the USA) smoke. But, a look behind the basic numbers shows something quite interesting when it comes to demographics. Folks who are better educated smoke a lot less then folks with a basic high school education. In fact, of those with a 4 years college degree, less then 11% smoke. And this higher educated group represents a majority of cruisers who tend to be a higher educated higher income group as compared to the general population.

 

It is also interesting to note that smoking substantially decreases among those with graduate degrees....of which only about 7% smoke! One can draw their own conclusions as to why better educated folks shun smoking :)

 

Hank

 

P.S. For those who think that some of us are making up statistics here is a refrerence:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6302a2.htm?s_cid=mm6302a2_w

Edited January 12, 2015 by Hlitner

[sammiedawg]

When folks start tossing around statistics, it is helpful to look at statistics as they apply to cruisers....not the population as a whole. For the moment, lets keep this to the USA since the CDC does publish some interesting and up-to-date statistics. It is now estimated that approximately 18% of all adults (in the USA) smoke. But, a look behind the basic numbers shows something quite interesting when it comes to demographics. Folks who are better educated smoke a lot less then folks with a basic high school education. In fact, of those with a 4 years college degree, less then 11% smoke. And this higher educated group represents a majority of cruisers who tend to be a higher educated higher income group as compared to the general population.

 

It is also interesting to note that smoking substantially decreases among those with graduate degrees....of which only about 7% smoke! One can draw their own conclusions as to why better educated folks shun smoking :)

 

Hank

 

P.S. For those who think that some of us are making up statistics here is a refrerence:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6302a2.htm?s_cid=mm6302a2_w

 

Bingo, this post is very factual, sad but true.

Edited January 12, 2015 by sammiedawg

[Lizzie68]

Actually your response is the one that is not logical. You, and others, continue to express the problem as "black and white" where this issue contains many shades of gray. While you contend that the split is 20% smokers and 80% that can't stand to be around smoke, the split is more like 20% smokers, 60% tolerant to various degrees, and 20% that can't stand to be around smoke.

Allowing one side to be guaranteed to be smoke free gives the 20% a place they can book that will satisfy them. It may not be the side they prefer, but nobody gets everything they want.

Smokers would be on the other side and would also have many choices of cabins. They too, might not get the side of the ship they prefer but we all have to make choices.

The rest of the ship would be filled with the 60% who, for what ever reason, don't care and are not bothered by smoke and smokers. These people are out there, but generally don't respond to smoking threads because it doesn't effect them.

As far as your Prinsendam cruise, you said you had only one cabin that met your requirements to book. What would you want HAL to do? Guarantee that you could get your choice of cabins whenever you book, moving people who had already booked if the happen to have booked your cabin? I seem to remember Sail7seas mentioning one time that she changed weeks on a cruise in order to get the cabin she wanted.

 

 

Where on earth did you get your figures? I would really like to see where 60% are tolerant. And what percentage of your smokers are considerate of non-smokers? Further, if indeed 60% was tolerant, what percentage of those would remain tolerant if they had to tolerate a smoker on the next balcony impacting the use of their own? When someone quotes statistics, they have to be willing to back them up with hard facts and data.

[LMaxwell]

I am not sure why you think that your "made up and based on nothing statistic" is accurate either. If you have taken any statistics courses you would find that nothing has a sharp cut off point. In this case, several people have posted on this, and other threads, that they are not bothered by smoke and smokers.

As far as what this group might answer - again it would vary. In my case if I had a balcony I would really not care. Given a choice, others might ask for the non smoking side but be ok with it if given the smoking side.

 

What does it count for if I taught a statistics course rather than just taking one?

 

Your statistic has no basis (none that you supplied). You are telling me that 3/4 of smokers are ambivalent about smoking to the point that they do not mind a smokey environment and if given a preference between a smoke free or smokey environment they would say there is no difference or willingly select the smokey environment? I do not believe that for one second. It is an absurd assertion on your behalf with nothing to back it up.

 

Smoking is going away on HAL. Be prepared for it.

[AV8rix]

I think it is time to start a pool predicting when the announcement will be made. I say June of this year. I'd love to be wrong and have it happen earlier.

 

I hope you're wrong (about June). I've got an 18-day on Amsterdam coming up in May.

 

I'm a blackjack player and I can only play when the casino first opens on sea days and then only for a couple of hours before the casino space starts to become smoke-soaked.

 

Between HAL's current smoking policy and the fact that HAL is not joining the other lines that have instituted a loyalty-point policy for solos that's more commensurate with the burdensome supplement that we must pay, I'm seriously considering switching to X.

[Blue Mudshark]

... this higher educated group represents a majority of cruisers ...

...

 

P.S. For those who think that some of us are making up statistics here is a refrerence:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6302a2.htm?s_cid=mm6302a2_w

 

I don't see anything in the reference you cite that supports the made-up statistic that "this higher educated group represents a majority of cruisers."

[hrhdhd]

Your idea isn't logical. If only 20% of the ship smokes, why should an entire side be devoted to them, and only one side to non smokers? Why should a non smoker be stuck on the smoking side because they booked late. And, how late is late??? Like I stated earlier, we booked well over a year and had one suitable cabin to choose from. You are implying I should book as soon as the itinerary comes out, to assure my spot. If this idea was logical, don't you think HAL would have done this??? You are implying your priorities are the most logical for all of us. I don't care what side of the ship I'm on, but if people do care, I'm not going to roll my eyes and think there is something wrong with their priorities.

 

Repeating: I am not suggesting an entire side be devoted to smokers. One side will be designated for nonsmokers, and on the other, people will be allowed to smoke. That doesn't mean that side will be filled with smokers.

 

People who book late®, smokers or no, have limited selection of cabins, dining seating preferences, specialty dining reservations, and shore excursions, to name a few things. If being on the nonsmoking side is YOUR priority, then you'll have to book early enough to get the cabin you want on the side you want. How early is that? I have no idea; it probably depends greatly on the specific ship/cruise itinerary/dates.

 

Meanwhile, this idea is logical; because it hasn't been implemented has nothing to do with its logic. HAL has a lot of illogical policies now (letting people carry on soda, for example, or having a dress code that isn't enforced). Obviously, they make decisions based on other criteria.

[cruz chic]

Where on earth did you get your figures? I would really like to see where 60% are tolerant. And what percentage of your smokers are considerate of non-smokers? Further, if indeed 60% was tolerant, what percentage of those would remain tolerant if they had to tolerate a smoker on the next balcony impacting the use of their own? When someone quotes statistics, they have to be willing to back them up with hard facts and data.

 

Those are likely people that don't book a balcony. If they turned the lower promanade (for instance) into a smokehouse all of a sudden it would be a problem:D.

[Sow There]

It was stated earlier, but it's worth repeating, that the present policy means those who are adamant anti-smokers have no opportunity to select a balcony cabin that will be guaranteed not to have neighbors who smoke.

 

If the suggestion that the policy be changed to permit balcony smoking on just one side of a ship, the adamant non-smoker would have an accommodation far better than he/she has now.

 

I'm a member of the 60% who don't smoke but are ambivalent about being exposed to occasional puffs of second hand smoke. However HAL decides to go with the smoking policy, I'm not affected so I'm not a strong advocate of any proposed changes.

 

Life is made up of personal choices and personal responsibility. That means people must be tolerant of things they cannot directly control and must make personal choices consistent with their own preferences.

 

In the present discussion, if I am in the 20% that don't smoke and cannot accept being in an environment where I may be involuntarily subjected to second hand smoke, then it's my responsibility to avoid that environment. Simply put, that means don't book a balcony.

 

Same thing if you are allergic to peanuts, don't eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Advocating for, and expecting, a total ban on peanuts is not realistic.

 

In other words, I'm pro choice. Everyone is responsible for making his/her own choices on virtually anything, including choosing which cruise line to book, if any; whether or not to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich; or anything else that involves personal health and/or preferences.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Sow There

[LMaxwell]

It was stated earlier, but it's worth repeating, that the present policy means those who are adamant anti-smokers have no opportunity to select a balcony cabin that will be guaranteed not to have neighbors who smoke.

 

If the suggestion that the policy be changed to permit balcony smoking on just one side of a ship, the adamant non-smoker would have an accommodation far better than he/she has now.

 

I'm a member of the 60% who don't smoke but are ambivalent about being exposed to occasional puffs of second hand smoke. However HAL decides to go with the smoking policy, I'm not affected so I'm not a strong advocate of any proposed changes.

 

Life is made up of personal choices and personal responsibility. That means people must be tolerant of things they cannot directly control and must make personal choices consistent with their own preferences.

 

In the present discussion, if I am in the 20% that don't smoke and cannot accept being in an environment where I may be involuntarily subjected to second hand smoke, then it's my responsibility to avoid that environment. Simply put, that means don't book a balcony.

 

Same thing if you are allergic to peanuts, don't eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Advocating for, and expecting, a total ban on peanuts is not realistic.

 

In other words, I'm pro choice. Everyone is responsible for making his/her own choices on virtually anything, including choosing which cruise line to book, if any; whether or not to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich; or anything else that involves personal health and/or preferences.

False equivocation but sounds nice. Your neighbor eating peanuts won't impact you negatively.

[cruz chic]

It was stated earlier, but it's worth repeating, that the present policy means those who are adamant anti-smokers have no opportunity to select a balcony cabin that will be guaranteed not to have neighbors who smoke.

 

If the suggestion that the policy be changed to permit balcony smoking on just one side of a ship, the adamant non-smoker would have an accommodation far better than he/she has now.

 

I'm a member of the 60% who don't smoke but are ambivalent about being exposed to occasional puffs of second hand smoke. However HAL decides to go with the smoking policy, I'm not affected so I'm not a strong advocate of any proposed changes.

 

Life is made up of personal choices and personal responsibility. That means people must be tolerant of things they cannot directly control and must make personal choices consistent with their own preferences.

 

In the present discussion, if I am in the 20% that don't smoke and cannot accept being in an environment where I may be involuntarily subjected to second hand smoke, then it's my responsibility to avoid that environment. Simply put, that means don't book a balcony.

 

Same thing if you are allergic to peanuts, don't eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Advocating for, and expecting, a total ban on peanuts is not realistic.

 

In other words, I'm pro choice. Everyone is responsible for making his/her own choices on virtually anything, including choosing which cruise line to book, if any; whether or not to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich; or anything else that involves personal health and/or preferences.

 

If everyone thought this way there would still be smoking in theaters, offices etc. Thankfully, people fight for change and thankfully win. It will be the same here, no matter how many kick and scream.