The Cruise Experience is changing!...

[navybankerteacher]

I challenge UNTRUE statements.

 

I have not noticed that approach - rather I have observed your reluctance to let OPINIONS which displease you go unchallenged.

[navybankerteacher]

HAL did build a core of loyal repeat cruisers - and that original core is indeed dwindling - but there is still a spectrum of tastes out there: not everyone wants the some-activity-for-everybody approach which is fueling the race to the bottom among the bulk of the mass market lines. And not everyone can afford the true premium lines.

 

In virtually every industry it is the niche-fillers which flourish---- and a distinct niche is opening up: a mid-size, mid-priced provider positioned between the ever-larger nickel-dimers (who you yourself observe have become addicted to selling cruises at a loss and making it up on "discretionary" spending - which is actually less and less "discretionary" as they slash the quality of what is included in the basic fare) --- and the yacht-like premium lines. If such a mid-sized, mid-priced provider focuses on maintaining quality, that niche is theirs.

 

From much of what you have posted, you do not appear to have that high a regard for the current approach of the managements of the mass market lines.

[time4u2go]

It is very common knowledge in the cruise industry that the smallest cruise ship that can currently make a profit - at any price point - carries over 2,000 passengers.

Anything smaller than that just does not have the economies of scale to make the operation profitable.

 

So Crystal and Silversea and other luxury cruise lines do not make a profit? How do they stay in business?

[swedish weave]

So Crystal and Silversea and other luxury cruise lines do not make a profit? How do they stay in business?

 

Silversea is owned and operated by the Vlasov group and LeFebvre family. It is a private company headquartered in Monaco so finances are not public information. The owners are former owners of Sitmar cruise lines. Rumor has it that Sitmar was won by one of the owners in a poker game many years ago.

 

Crystal is owned and supported by the Japanese shipping company NYK lines.

Edited September 6, 2014 by swedish weave

[swedish weave]

I have not noticed that approach - rather I have observed your reluctance to let OPINIONS which displease you go unchallenged.

 

Your personal comments are not necessary as part of the discussion on these boards. I will see how well the "ignore" function works. No need to clutter the boards with this drivel.

[time4u2go]

Silversea is owned and operated by the Vlasov group and LeFebvre family. It is a private company headquartered in Monaco so finances are not public information. The owners are former owners of Sitmar cruise lines. Rumor has it that Sitmar was won by one of the owners in a poker game many years ago.

 

Crystal is owned and supported by the Japanese shipping company NYK lines.

 

All of that is great, but I was responding to BruceMuzz's statement that a cruise ship has to carry at least 2000 passengers to be profitable. I find it hard to believe that every luxury cruise line operates at a loss, unless there are ones with ships that carry more than 2000 passengers.

Edited September 6, 2014 by time4u2go

[sail7seas]

Silversea is owned and operated by the Vlasov group and LeFebvre family. It is a private company headquartered in Monaco so finances are not public information. The owners are former owners of Sitmar cruise lines. Rumor has it that Sitmar was won by one of the owners in a poker game many years ago.

 

Crystal is owned and supported by the Japanese shipping company NYK lines.

 

 

This sets out ownership but doesn't discuss profit which is the issue presented.

 

You state Monaco finances are not public information re: Silversea but do you have information regarding Crystal's profitability?

 

 

[swedish weave]

This sets out ownership but doesn't discuss profit which is the issue presented.

 

You state Monaco finances are not public information re: Silversea but do you have information regarding Crystal's profitability?

 

 

 

You can check NYK lines financial statements and try to unravel the figures if it is important. They show Crystal and one other cruise line owned by them as 1.9 percent of their total revenue. The charts show a profit but don't separate the two cruise lines figures.

 

Corporate accounting can make a losing segment show a profit or loss by juggling numbers (Example -Enron - until they went down.

 

At any rate, some large corporations carry losing segments on the books for tax purposes and actually make money for the corporation by doing this.

 

Back to the original question -- Bruce Muzz is very knowledgible about the cruising industry, so I would not dispute his generalities just for the sake of argument. He works in the "nuts and bolts" of the business.

 

To put some of this in a simple form, many corporations have planes and boats that they use to entertain customers and others. They show these on the books as expenses, but in the big picture, they gain market share with them. This may or may not be the case with the cruise lines.

Edited September 6, 2014 by swedish weave

[swedish weave]

All of that is great, but I was responding to BruceMuzz's statement that a cruise ship has to carry at least 2000 passengers to be profitable. I find it hard to believe that every luxury cruise line operates at a loss, unless there are ones with ships that carry more than 2000 passengers.

 

A slick corporate accounting department can make a giraffe look like a race horse.

[time4u2go]

A slick corporate accounting department can make a giraffe look like a race horse.

 

I still get back to my original point - that it's hard to believe that no luxury cruise line is profitable.

 

Same for river cruises. They obviously have passenger capacity less than 2000. It's hard to believe that none of them are profitable.

Edited September 6, 2014 by time4u2go

[swedish weave]

I still get back to my original point - that it's hard to believe that no luxury cruise line is profitable.

 

Same for river cruises. They obviously have passenger capacity less than 2000. It's hard to believe that none of them are profitable.

 

You believe what you want to believe. None of us can change that.

 

My years of experience in the transportation industry and Bruce Muzz knowledge of the business are not enough.

 

Enjoy !!!

Edited September 6, 2014 by swedish weave

[calliopecruiser]

I challenge UNTRUE statements.

 

Someone's opinion is not untrue just because you disagree with it. They are truthful that it IS their opinion. The only way it would be untrue is if they told you they liked something when they didn't.

[worldspan]

Bottom line, the LUXURY, the ELEGANCE, the GLAMOUR, and finally the EXCLUSIVITY are long gone!

 

Worldspan

135 cruises ( and taking no more!)

[time4u2go]

You believe what you want to believe. None of us can change that.

 

My years of experience in the transportation industry and Bruce Muzz knowledge of the business are not enough.

 

Enjoy !!!

 

OK, simple question. Do you believe there are NO luxury cruise lines and NO riverboat cruise lines that are profitable?

[calliopecruiser]

I still get back to my original point - that it's hard to believe that no luxury cruise line is profitable.

 

I agree, and NYK's annual report says that there was a profit in fiscal 2013 in their cruise division, but not in 2012......but that's for both Crystal (2 ships) and Asuka (1 ship).

[BruceMuzz]

So Crystal and Silversea and other luxury cruise lines do not make a profit? How do they stay in business?

 

Crystal Cruises is owned by NYK (Nippon Yusen Kaisha), one of the largest and most profitable cargo shipping companies in the world. Crystal is an expensive hobby for the owners.

 

Silversea is owned by a very wealthy Italian Family that wants to have the best cruise line in the world and is willing to pay for it.

 

Seabourn was owned by a very wealthy Norwegian family that was willing to pay to own one of the best cruise lines in the world. But the losses were too much even for them. They sold out to Mickey Arison, who was willing to pay to have one of the best cruise lines in the world. But then it got too expensive even or him. He transferred Seabourn to HAL, hoping the could reduce the losses. So far no luck. Still bleeding money.

[BruceMuzz]

I still get back to my original point - that it's hard to believe that no luxury cruise line is profitable.

 

Same for river cruises. They obviously have passenger capacity less than 2000. It's hard to believe that none of them are profitable.

 

River boats are not cruise ships. They operate under different legal conventions, different safety rules, different unions, and have far lower operating costs than ocean going vessels.

[time4u2go]

River boats are not cruise ships. They operate under different legal conventions, different safety rules, different unions, and have far lower operating costs than ocean going vessels.

 

Fair enough. But do you believe there are no luxury cruise lines that make a profit?

[jayblue]

River boats are not cruise ships. They operate under different legal conventions, different safety rules, different unions, and have far lower operating costs than ocean going vessels.

 

I'm going to interrupt and disagree with you a bit. While the riverboats are different behind the scenes, the customers are seeking a similar experience. Just like people that cruise the Great Lakes.

 

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Forums mobile app

[time4u2go]

I agree, and NYK's annual report says that there was a profit in fiscal 2013 in their cruise division, but not in 2012......but that's for both Crystal (2 ships) and Asuka (1 ship).

 

Thank you.

[simplelife]

Ok, first of all: Excuse me if I am breaking any forum rule, but by reading all the most current threads here on the RCI Forums, I wanted to start a thread that may be a general reflexion on how the entire Cruise Experience is changing nowadays.

 

Some 30 years ago, Cruiseing was seen as an extremely expensive luxury only available for some rich and very rich individuals. Now it is a well stablished industry with options that can be affordable by almost any average class citizen. While some 30 years ago, nearly all the companies offered more or less the same product, in part due to technical limitations on size and operationality of the ships and of the general maritime industry, now, even the smaller ships are more efficient with better designs and technology. On top of that the industry strarted to develop in many ways, creating different segments in the market to cater for different needs. There was the beggining of what is now the "classical" division between Luxury, premium and Mainstream Cruising.

 

Well, let us now put Luxury and premium Cruise Experiences apart (they are evolving themselves too...) and and let us concentrate ouselves on the Mainstream experience to where RCI belongs now. On the Mainstream Experience the trend seems to be that larger is better, and that more impersonal is more efficient. Ah! And let us bring land entertainment and amenities in general to the game, while ships are becoming larger and larger... And there is another factor to take in consideration: Weight limits for luggage in the planes...

 

And here we are now on the advent of the new Mainstream Cruising era: Computers and more computers on one side; casual and even more casual evenings on the other side... Ok, it may not be for all... But it is where the times are going... Ah! And to be Mainstream means appealing to the masses, and that will one day mean differenciate prices with the kind of amenities you want on your cruise, from the most simple inside room with basic amenities and services included to the largest suite with an all inclusive environment and SPA access included with many options in between, like the Italian lines and others are starting to implement. Sooner than later that will become standard as well...

 

Gone are the days of the pillow chocolates or of the huge midnight buffets... But another exciting world is coming: Better dining options; better passenger traffic inside the ships; better service management on any level of the ship; in summary, better passenger satisfaction in different ways may be comig!... Of course at some traditions expense... I'm curious on how RCI will deal with the captains reception now that there will no be any formal night in the ship?... Will it be another private event?... Or just another pool event?...

 

On one thing I'm certain: We will have a new Cruising Experience coming soon and I'm ready to be on the "poll position" for that!... And you?...

 

Our last cruise the captains party was am afternoon affair on one of the sea days and people came casually dressed to one of the theaters. The house band played dance music and there were free drinks being passed. I don't remember if there were hors d'oeuvres for not.

[swedish weave]

OK, simple question. Do you believe there are NO luxury cruise lines and NO riverboat cruise lines that are profitable?

 

The only thing I believe is that you need to do your own research to get the answers you seek. I will not do that for you.

 

Why would you ask me that question when you won't accept what I have already told you?

 

Never mind answering, because I won't respond to any more of your nonsense.

Edited September 7, 2014 by swedish weave

[BruceMuzz]

Fair enough. But do you believe there are no luxury cruise lines that make a profit?

 

Having managed ships for the luxury lines for many years, I do not BELIEVE they are losing money.

I KNOW they are losing money.

[BruceMuzz]

I'm going to interrupt and disagree with you a bit. While the riverboats are different behind the scenes, the customers are seeking a similar experience. Just like people that cruise the Great Lakes.

 

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Forums mobile app

 

No disagreement necessary.

Yes, the passengers on both types of vessels are looking for similar products.

But the operators are looking at two completely different operations.

 

A 1,500 passenger cruise ship cannot possibly make a profit - at any price point.

A 500 passenger river boat can be very successful.

[CPT Trips]

No disagreement necessary.

Yes, the passengers on both types of vessels are looking for similar products.

But the operators are looking at two completely different operations.

 

A 1,500 passenger cruise ship cannot possibly make a profit - at any price point.

A 500 passenger river boat can be very successful.

 

What about the smaller European river boats? Do they make profits at their capacity?