Concerns I have about decisions made on Pride.

[mg33626]

I was on the Thanksgiving cruise with my wife and son. I anticipated this cruise and many fun shore experiences we would be doing on this trip. Before I get to the point, I want to say the 2.0 upgrades were great. The New Mexican restaurant was fantastic and included a salsa bar worthy of a great Cabo taco stand. The slides were fun, and had virtually no lines. Guy's burgers was great the first time, but maybe a little less so after a couple tries. I recommend just getting a plain burger and using the toppings bar to personalize it. The food was pretty darn good overall. This was our first time using an aft cabin, which we loved. Now to the point: we missed 2 ports and also added an unplanned stop in Costa Maya. Here is my take and concern on how things happened:

 

Even though I'm certain sea conditions were known, we did temporarily anchor in Belize only to soon leave. If conditions were bad, I can't imagine why we pulled in and anchored. To make matters worse, there were 2 other NCL ships also in port. It was sad to have an aft cabin and watch us leave based on what the captain described as rough seas for using tenders yet the NCL ships clearly felt differently. I watched the ships in pretty sunny weather as we left, and later talked with passengers on the NCL Dawn the next day. They remarked how the day turned out sunny and nice, and how they enjoyed. Belize. Although I'm not the biggest fan of the NCL experience, I do recognize they have a stellar safety record and feel they made the right call that day.

 

I feel a much better choice would have been for the captain to inform the passengers that they would likely have a rough ride using the tenders and left the choice up to the passengers. Instead we headed south where it was clear that the next 48 hours would have far worse weather. This was known to me, so it certainly was known to the officers of the Pride. I will also add that I was part of a navigation crew aboard a submarine for 10 years, and feel very well versed in this area.

 

So after losing Belize, we headed into certain terrible conditions and they were exactly that. I realize the Captain does not control the weather, but his reactions to them were embarrassing and wrong. So, after all the extra time on a bad sea day we get to the shortest stop of Roatan for a very terrible day and then get stuck in port. Again, this should have been pretty clear to the crew; it certainly was to me. We remained in port in Roatan for hours which quickly meant we were very unlikely to make Grand Cayman. I won't assume to know that the seas significantly went down during those few hours, but I can't believe it was a huge difference. This in turn left us with changing our destination to Costa Maya. Costa Maya is not the worst stop in the world, but has far less quality options than Grand Cayman.

 

There were plenty of weather issues out of the Captain's control, but I was very displeased for his decision making based on the weather. Additionally, with watching the NCL ships stay in and apparently enjoy Belize; it makes me wonder about why some decisions were made. Sadly my opinion overall is that cruise lines need fun itineraries and ports to get the public to want to choose cruising as a vacation option. But I am also certain that it's much better for the bottom line of the cruise line when ports are missed as guests than will spend money onboard rather than in shops and with independent tours on shore.

 

Over the last 15 years another similar trend has happened with more "artificially created" port stops. 2 decades ago almost every line regularly used "private islands" mostly in the Bahamas which was one thing. Since then, there have been ports that only exist because the cruise lines make them up. It's very obvious to experienced cruisers that so much of the entire fake port experience in places like Costa Maya, the new seperate port in Roatan, and Grand Turk among others are really just an extension of your onboard experience. I have discussed this with people in these "shops" that look independent and unique but are really controlled by the cruise lines.

 

It's a good business model, and I understand CCL is a business. With that said, on this recent cruise we missed 2 of the 4 ports we were scheduled to stop in. I don't think it's a coincidence that these were not the type of ports that I was describing above. Additionally, we did find a way to make it two 2 stops with the big Carnival influence ( and one of those was not even on are scheduled itinerary). All of this certainly left me with a bad taste in my mouth for how decisions were made or more importantly why they were made.

 

On a side note, ship announcements were poorly organized. This ship could learn from other Carnival ships and lines and have far less announcements or at least better planned. Many times the cruise director would make ship wide announcements within a short perios before and after the captain. I reccomend working together and make your announcements at the same time to lessen the interruptions to the vacation experience.

[RWolver672]

Please don't take this wrong. The ship's captain is responsible not only for his crew and passengers but also for his ship. Moving a cruise ship in the ocean is a lot different than moving a submarine under the surface. They are experienced enough to know if it will be safe for the passengers or not.

 

Had he made those ports with tenders, people would be on here complaining that the seas were too rough and that they never should have stopped at that port.

 

Grand Cayman is also a tender port and many cruises never make it there if the seas are choppy. Roatan is also missed if the wind is strong. That's one of the things that Carnival has the right to do according to their contracts when you book. They have the right to change their itinerary if the Captain feels it needs to be done.

 

You are absolutely right though that if the ship is in port, they aren't making any money. I sometimes wonder if they do intentionally miss a port. We were within talking distance to the people on the pier in Roatan and pulled out supposedly because it was too windy.

 

I know it's frustrating but the Captain has the final say.

[sparks1093]

As a former sailor you know that the decision is the Captain's to make and the Captain's alone. He alone is responsible and 100% accountable. Some will choose to sail close to shoal waters, others will avoid it like the plague. C'est la vie. He did his job and kept everyone as safe as he could.

[BND]

What gets me is your use of "it was known to me" as if you know better than the Master of the vessel who is responsible for the ship and everyone onboard. I'm sure he had information you did not. Sorry, but they do not make port cancellations lightly. My DH was a US Navy Captain (he's actually driven a ship) and he never questions the decision to skip any port (and yes they skip docked ports for weather too, just not as often). The Captain will not make a decision until he gets to the port and the decision is made jointly by the Captain and the port officials.

 

They do not skip ports in order to make money. Happy cruisers spend more onboard than angry ones. It also means the crew has to work more and the Captain isn't looking for an unhappy crew either. The Captain is not there to make anyone happy, just to keep everyone safe. The Cruise Director's job is to make everyone happy.

 

We had made it into Grand Cayman once out of two attempts. It's very common. The first time we tried to go there, the weather did not allow it. We met someone who had been on ships 4 or 5 times that never made it. The decision is made not just on sea state, but on winds and the forecast. You don't want to get people ashore only to have them stranded there.

Edited December 7, 2014 by BND

[ahoys]

I was on this cruise as well. As you know, the waves were awful coming through the pier at Costa Maya. I'd hate to try to board tenders in those conditions. We were rocking pretty hard when we left Belize, so despite what the NCL passengers said, I still believe the choice to skip the tender ports and have us dock in Costa Maya was the right one. Costa Maya is not one of Carnival's "ports" (like Grand Turk), so I don't believe the decision was based on trying to get more money from us.--Just my opinion, of course.

I hope you were still able to enjoy the trip.

[winddawn]

Although I know how missing ports can cause disappointment, I would much prefer the Captain err on the side of caution when it comes to the safety of passengers and crew members. I can't tell you how many times I've missed ports due to weather, but it is understood when you choose a cruise vacation that you are at the mercy of conditions out of your control; not to mention that you agree to in the cruise contract you sign online with Carnival. Tender ports in particular are vulnerable to cancellations due to weather. The one thing I wanted for my 50th birthday was to spend the day at Half Moon Cay, so I booked a cruise around that, but ended up disappointed when that port was cancelled due to weather. I won't have a second chance of celebrating that milestone birthday, but that is part of cruising.

 

I'm sorry that you are disappointed. Maybe you would be better suited to a land-based vacation where you have more control over your activities. We all work hard to earn our vacation time and deserve to enjoy that time with our families.

 

From my perspective, I understand every time I take a cruise that I have to be flexible and make the best of what happens on the cruise. That is just part of the cruise experience. And after 31 cruises, I can tell you that I have lots of stories to tell related to those types of unexpected events. Flexibility is key to maximum enjoyment of the cruise experience IMO. And especially in late fall and winter in the Caribbean, wind is more common and can lead to itinerary changes.

 

Better luck next time.

[scoobyfish]

It's absurd to say the cruise ships intentionally skip ports. They make a fair amount of revenue from shore excursions booked through them. They lose that money when the port stop is cancelled.

 

As far as the decision to skip the ports, I agree with the responses by others one this thread.

[Orison]

Sometimes I think some passengers think that the captain should bring everyone up to the bridge just to make sure altered itineraries are approved by each an every passenger.

 

I put my COMPLETE trust in the captain (unless I sail Costa), and believe that if he thinks conditions are bad not to call on a specific port, that his decision is the correct one. There is no monetary loss to the passenger if they mISS a port.

 

I will say I am happy that we have never needed an altered itinerary, and would probably appreciate moving the ship to better weather if the port is less than satisfactory.

[okgirl]

I can say from experience that it is absolutely terrifying trying to reboard the ship from a tender in rough sea's. Several years ago in Grand Cayman both the ship and the tender were pitching in opposite directions. The crew literally grabbed us by our upper arms and pulling us onto the ship. We had hand print bruises on each of our arms.

 

My sister has never tendered again.

 

I also don't think that Carnival chooses to cancel ports so they can make more money. I'm pretty sure it's a losing proposition for them. The crew has to work extra hours, they lose the revenue (which is considerable) from shore excursions. They have to prepare extra food. They refund port fee's.

[evandbob]

Sometimes it's not even about bouncy tender rides. It can be more about damage to the ship, or even difficulty staying anchored. A moving cruise ship can damage the reef, which would cause large fines and terrible publicity for the parent line.

[packedandready]

Is it possible that the wind picked up after the NCL ships docked and they made it in port before the wind?

[RuthlessBoss]

Is it possible that the wind picked up after the NCL ships docked and they made it in port before the wind?

 

I was thinking that too. We also have no idea what undercurrents are doing. To the layman, sunny skies and looking down on the ocean waves is not an indication that all is well. The cruise line knows full well that people book for itinerary, so they won't miss a port just for he heck of it. That's just not good business.

[mg33626]

In my post I never said with any certainty that any port was missed on purpose. I was simply speculating that the benifit to the cruise line may in some cases enter into the decision. I realize many people on these boards are very loyal, and that is understandable. I can say with all certainty that I do understand it's totally up to the captain to make these choices, but people on board have a right to their opinion and speculation as well. I will also say with some certainty that I may not have as much time at sea as the captain, I have more time plotting and planning navigation for a 500 foot vessel than any of you who have replied.

 

Go ahead, and bring it. By the way, Costa is owned by CCL. Please spare the safety comments when virtually all of the issues of safety have come from the same parent company.

[BND]

In my post I never said with any certainty that any port was missed on purpose. I was simply speculating that the benifit to the cruise line may in some cases enter into the decision. I realize many people on these boards are very loyal, and that is understandable. I can say with all certainty that I do understand it's totally up to the captain to make these choices, but people on board have a right to their opinion and speculation as well. I will also say with some certainty that I may not have as much time at sea as the captain, I have more time plotting and planning navigation for a 500 foot vessel than any of you who have replied.

 

Go ahead, and bring it. By the way, Costa is owned by CCL. Please spare the safety comments when virtually all of the issues of safety have come from the same parent company.

 

Wow is all I can say. You are so much smarter than the Captain. Let him/her know next time you cruise so they can call on your expertise.

 

My DH has done plotting and navigation as a Naval Officer and he agrees with what I posted.

 

BTW, I'm not loyal to CCL as you can see by my cruising history so don't play that card which is generally done by those that don't like the responses they get.

[elliair]

We've had the same kind of experience of missing the first port due to weather. It was a clear sunny day, but the waves for tendering were a little high. The captain said I can get you to the island, but getting you back to the ship is another thing. It would have been a costly event if he couldn't get the passengers back to the ship. We anchored, but the captain decided to pull the anchor and leave for the next island. All were disappointed, but were relieved that the captain was looking out for our safety.

 

Don't forget that the cruise lines lose big time for excursions that were not taken and had to be refunded.

[Tapi]

I feel a much better choice would have been for the captain to inform the passengers that they would likely have a rough ride using the tenders and left the choice up to the passengers.

 

 

With all due respect, but that has to be one of the worst and most absurd recommendations I've ever read on all the years I've been posting on Cruise Critic. You NEVER leave a decision concerning safety at the hands of the passengers. This is not a matter of an uncomfortable ride ashore, but a matter of safety that can quickly become life threatening.

 

This type of comment shows the severe lack of understanding of the expertise required to make the type of decisions that the Captain, along with a team of other professionals at Carnival, are required to have in order to keep you and others safe and away from dangers.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tapi

[CruiserBren]

I was on the Freedom for a Thanksgiving cruise. The water in general was rough for most of the cruise. ON Thanksgiving Day, Grand Cayman closed the port, so we too missed the port.

[sparks1093]

In my post I never said with any certainty that any port was missed on purpose. I was simply speculating that the benifit to the cruise line may in some cases enter into the decision. I realize many people on these boards are very loyal, and that is understandable. I can say with all certainty that I do understand it's totally up to the captain to make these choices, but people on board have a right to their opinion and speculation as well. I will also say with some certainty that I may not have as much time at sea as the captain, I have more time plotting and planning navigation for a 500 foot vessel than any of you who have replied.

 

Go ahead, and bring it. By the way, Costa is owned by CCL. Please spare the safety comments when virtually all of the issues of safety have come from the same parent company.

 

I really don't care what your level of expertise is, onboard the vessel you are just another passenger and while you are entitled to your opinion that opinion carries the same weight as passed gas in the wind since the Captain's opinion is the only one that matters. Has nothing to do with loyalty to any line, I would say the same thing on any forum.

[cjknox]

In my post I never said with any certainty that any port was missed on purpose. I was simply speculating that the benifit to the cruise line may in some cases enter into the decision. I realize many people on these boards are very loyal, and that is understandable. I can say with all certainty that I do understand it's totally up to the captain to make these choices, but people on board have a right to their opinion and speculation as well. I will also say with some certainty that I may not have as much time at sea as the captain, I have more time plotting and planning navigation for a 500 foot vessel than any of you who have replied.

 

Go ahead, and bring it. By the way, Costa is owned by CCL. Please spare the safety comments when virtually all of the issues of safety have come from the same parent company.

 

While everyone certainly is entitled to their opinion, I can't seem to understand how someone with your experience cannot see the wisdom in the captains decision. What if the Captain anchored and left the decision to the passengers and someone got injured or worse? Or what if the ship drifted uncontrollably towards another ship or the reef? In this case it's better to be safe than sorry and if the captain had actually docked and something happened he'd be out of a job and Carnival would be looking at some serious litigation and bad press. When lives are at stake you can never be too careful.

[CatgirlNC]

I don't disagree with your point about the cruiselines focusing more and more on the "created" ports such as Costa Maya. I personally would love to spend more time having authentic experiences in each destination, and less time at Diamonds International.

 

However, I agree with the other posters who say that safety always must come first. In your specific cruise example (by the way, I am taking the same ship and itinerary in February), that's just way the chips fell in missing Belize and Grand Cayman, which, as tender ports, are commonly missed due to weather/water conditions.

 

I've been to Belize before, and one of the times, we stopped and tendered off as planned, but the conditions were a lot rougher when we returned to the ship after our excursion. Even as two able-bodied adults, getting from the tender onto the ship (Radiance of the Seas), was an adventure to say the least. It could been downright scary for a little kid, someone holding a baby, a disabled person, etc.

 

I know it's disappointing to miss any port, and those are 2 great ports, but sometimes that's what happens on a cruise.

[DKane]

We cruised on the Grandeur over Thanksgiving week and we missed Key West because the Captain, and I'm sure his officers, felt that it was too dicey trying to dock there because of the winds and the narrowness of the channel.

 

We were told that the weather conditions there were not great. Our captain said he would make every effort to avoid the nor'easter that was going up the coast and to give us a sunny day, and he did! So, our cruise ended with three sea days instead of two.

 

We had a wonderful vacation!

[Earl Colby Pottinger]

It may have nothing to do with the weather, port or ship.

 

A couple of cruises ago, we arrived at Rotan, only to have the ship not anchor and go back out to sea.

 

Watching CNN on the TV we were able to see the riot around the local prison that had been set on fire and prisoners escaping. If I remember right over a hundred of them were not accounted for.

 

The prison was nowhere near our port, but the captain thought it better not to stop there. And yes, we saw other ships that seemed to be staying anyway. We were only in sight of the port for half-a-hour so maybe they left a little later.

[mg33626]

With all due respect, but that has to be one of the worst and most absurd recommendations I've ever read on all the years I've been posting on Cruise Critic. You NEVER leave a decision concerning safety at the hands of the passengers. This is not a matter of an uncomfortable ride ashore, but a matter of safety that can quickly become life threatening.

 

This type of comment shows the severe lack of understanding of the expertise required to make the type of decisions that the Captain, along with a team of other professionals at Carnival, are required to have in order to keep you and others safe and away from dangers.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

For all of you who keep saying the decision was the right one, would you say that the choice to tender to the port by the Norwegian Captain was the wrong one? You can bash me all you want, but there were 4 captains facing the same conditions, and 2 did choose to stay. Were they wrong? If safety and ensuring there are never any issues or injuries occur, they could just stay tied to the dock and act as a hotel I guess.

 

I don't think I'm smarter than the captain, and did not say that. I understand who's authority matters, but that doesn't mean others aren't entitled to an opinion. We found a way to go to 2 ports Carnival controls, but not 2 that they don't. I am not a conspiracy nut, and do not think it was planned; I just think it was interesting and does play a factor.

 

I won't add more other than to say I really like the. Carnival experience and cruising in general. If you could read my posts, you'd likely see this is the only negative comment I have ever posted and yet I get bashed for daring to have a different opinion on one aspect of one cruise. Happy Sunday and safe sailing to all of you ( just please don't dare say anything negative on these boards).

[crusinpsychRN]

I really don't care what your level of expertise is, onboard the vessel you are just another passenger and while you are entitled to your opinion that opinion carries the same weight as passed gas in the wind since the Captain's opinion is the only one that matters. Has nothing to do with loyalty to any line, I would say the same thing on any forum.

 

Agreed.

 

OP, there are so many other variables you don't know the answers to, second guessing the Captain is pointless. If you asked him and he said he'd rather wave to his friends at another port, you'd have something to argue about.

 

Missing Belize is an oxymoron anyway...

[Out to sea!]

Even though I'm certain sea conditions were known, we did temporarily anchor in Belize only to soon leave. If conditions were bad, I can't imagine why we pulled in and anchored. To make matters worse, there were 2 other NCL ships also in port. It was sad to have an aft cabin and watch us leave based on what the captain described as rough seas for using tenders yet the NCL ships clearly felt differently. I watched the ships in pretty sunny weather as we left, and later talked with passengers on the NCL Dawn the next day. They remarked how the day turned out sunny and nice, and how they enjoyed. Belize. Although I'm not the biggest fan of the NCL experience, I do recognize they have a stellar safety record and feel they made the right call that day.

 

I don't know if it will make you feel any better but I was on one of those NCL ships at Belize (NCL Sun) and watched y'all sail off while scratching my head wondering why. It did take an extraordinary legnth of time for people to disembark (2+ hours to get the NCL tour groups off and then another 2+ hours to get passengers without NCL tours off). People were so late getting off the ship that about 30 minutes after we set sail to leave, the ship slowed and let 4 boatloads of people pull along side to get back on board, in the dark! :eek: The next day in Costa Maya we shared a taxi with a couple from the Sunshine (who also left with y'all) and she claimed their captain told them that all 4 ships were leaving due to the weather. She got right mad when I told her we did not leave.