"service" animals-where do we draw the line?

[keithm]

The funny part, is where you are thinking they are breaking some laws, what you suggest amounts almost to harassment on your part.

 

I guarantee you that should someone call out another on the ship and not let it go, all that person with the animal needs to do is get X Security who will likely tell you to lay off and follow the onboard Code of Conduct - remember, X has already deemed the animal acceptable by way of allowing it on the ship - your argument to the contrary will bear zero weight in the discussion.

I have allergies & I'm sorry, but if I spot a faker(and they are easy to spot) I will try to get that person booted out of a rest. We had an issue here last year where a person(I'll admit,a vet)had a therapy dog(his statement,not mine)He went into a diner & the owner asked him to put the dog outside. Of course it hit the new & the diner was besieged by protestors. The owner relented(and apologized) & allowed the rather ratty looking dog to be brought in. He should have exposed the hypocracy of this service v/s "Therapy" animals.

[keithm]

excellent advice - in fact I would say that you would be the person most likely escorted off the ship for being a "threat".

Not if the pet owner is faking the service animal routine.

[WpgCruise]

There's no way I would confront one of these posers, for as Curt has suggested, confrontation could easily escalate to the point where harassment allegations were leveled on me.

 

While I might be "Right" do I want to be Dead Right and escorted off the ship ?

 

If the circumstance were such I thought something had to be done, I'd provide the Front Desk with a written complaint and ask it be acknowledged while I was on the ship. If nothing is done, I'd address the matter with Celebrity upon my return home.

 

The staff on the ship don't set policy, that's a Corporate responsibility and that's who needs to address the issue. All the staff on the ship can do is the best they can with the resources Corporate makes available.

[dkjretired]

There's no way I would confront one of these posers, for as Curt has suggested, confrontation could easily escalate to the point where harassment allegations were leveled on me.

 

While I might be "Right" do I want to be Dead Right and escorted off the ship ?

 

If the circumstance were such I thought something had to be done, I'd provide the Front Desk with a written complaint and ask it be acknowledged while I was on the ship. If nothing is done, I'd address the matter with Celebrity upon my return home.

 

The staff on the ship don't set policy, that's a Corporate responsibility and that's who needs to address the issue. All the staff on the ship can do is the best they can with the resources Corporate makes available.

 

Well said and realistic..

[k9x8]

I have allergies & I'm sorry, but if I spot a faker(and they are easy to spot) I will try to get that person booted out of a rest. We had an issue here last year where a person(I'll admit,a vet)had a therapy dog(his statement,not mine)He went into a diner & the owner asked him to put the dog outside. Of course it hit the new & the diner was besieged by protestors. The owner relented(and apologized) & allowed the rather ratty looking dog to be brought in. He should have exposed the hypocracy of this service v/s "Therapy" animals.

 

As in veteran?

Shame on you. PTSD dogs have been a godsend. These dogs are assessed, trained, and the human/dog team is trained. They are most assuredly service dogs.

 

Good on the protesters and the owner.

Hypocrisy? No way. Do your homework.

[dkjretired]

As in veteran?

Shame on you. PTSD dogs have been a godsend. These dogs are assessed, trained, and the human/dog team is trained. They are most assuredly service dogs.

 

Good on the protesters and the owner.

Hypocrisy? No way. Do your homework.

 

Don't blame Keith on this one. I agree with you about the dogs but unfortunately the Dept of Veterans Affairs does not agree with us, PTSD dogs are not considered service dogs by the people who count.

 

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/PTSD/public/treatment/cope/dogs_and_ptsd.asp

 

Here's a story of a Vet being kicked out of a VA Emergency Room because he had a PTSD dog.

 

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/03/12/va-clinic-turns-away-veteran-because-of-service-dog/21152707/

[DirtyDawg]

Another one thrown off the ship....You realize that if you ask the person with the dog, they have no obligation to answer you and if you ask the crew they are not allowed under law to tell you...

 

Don, I can't wait until we start reading threads around here about cruisers being thrown off ships because they were harassing another cruiser who had a service/therapy animal. It will be a change from all the Formal wear/tipping/booze smuggling threads anyways.:D

[dkjretired]

Don, I can't wait until we start reading threads around here about cruisers being thrown off ships because they were harassing another cruiser who had a service/therapy animal. It will be a change from all the Formal wear/tipping/booze smuggling threads anyways.:D

 

My guess is that it may have already happened, if you go back to the original thread that is several years old, there were a lot of ticked off people about that one woman.

[DirtyDawg]

My guess is that it may have already happened, if you go back to the original thread that is several years old, there were a lot of ticked off people about that one woman.

 

I must have missed those "I got thrown off the ship" threads. ;) Eagerly waiting.

[Lady Chew]

Another one thrown off the ship....You realize that if you ask the person with the dog, they have no obligation to answer you and if you ask the crew they are not allowed under law to tell you...

 

:rolleyes: Du-uh. :rolleyes:

 

No one is going to get thrown off the ship for asking a question or two ...

 

I repeat, as long as no one complains to the authorities about those who are abusing this legal privilege for their own selfish desires, they have no reason to even think about tightening the rules ...

[dkjretired]

:rolleyes: Du-uh. :rolleyes:

 

No one is going to get thrown off the ship for asking a question or two ...

 

I repeat, as long as no one complains to the authorities about those who are abusing this legal privilege for their own selfish desires, they have no reason to even think about tightening the rules ...

 

But that is not all you said, I can agree with what you said in this post but would not go on a cruise ship and start questioning people which is what you said in your first post.

 

You would be surprised what people are thrown off cruise ships for.

Edited May 23, 2015 by dkjretired

[k9x8]

Don't blame Keith on this one. I agree with you about the dogs but unfortunately the Dept of Veterans Affairs does not agree with us, PTSD dogs are not considered service dogs by the people who count.

 

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/PTSD/public/treatment/cope/dogs_and_ptsd.asp

 

Here's a story of a Vet being kicked out of a VA Emergency Room because he had a PTSD dog.

 

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/03/12/va-clinic-turns-away-veteran-because-of-service-dog/21152707/

 

Yes, I realize the law is murky, and if we have to wait for the VA's approval, heaven help us. Meanwhile, I believe most people can tell the difference between a veteran, whose wounds may not be visible, and the person who lies in order to take Fluffy along for free.

 

I am honored to have participated in the process, and it is way more involved than getting a doctor's note stating that Madame needs Fluffy to ward off melancholy. It is indeed a blessing for our veterans.

[keesar]

On our cruise, the woman with the little dog in the baby carriage took the dog out of the carriage and walked it over to the buffet and beverage station. Some passengers were petting the dog but I had a different perspective, especially when I heard that 'fluffy' was being fed from her plate. Next time, I get out my camera.

 

I suspect some of these people are trying to avoid placing 'fluffy' in a kennel and saving some $$$.

[Winnigirl]

I have allergies & I'm sorry, but if I spot a faker(and they are easy to spot) I will try to get that person booted out of a rest. We had an issue here last year where a person(I'll admit,a vet)had a therapy dog(his statement,not mine)He went into a diner & the owner asked him to put the dog outside. Of course it hit the new & the diner was besieged by protestors. The owner relented(and apologized) & allowed the rather ratty looking dog to be brought in. He should have exposed the hypocracy of this service v/s "Therapy" animals.

 

Wow. Just exactly how did you know the man was a "faker"? You admit he was a vet. Are you an expert in therapy dogs? Or just "ratty" dogs? Therapy dogs have done wonders for veterans who have returned and are dealing with horrible traumas and PTSD. Are you saying that his traumas aren't as important as your allergies? I have allergies and I'd happily give my seat in a diner to the vet and his dog. I'd just move right over and make room - and then thank him for his service. And pat the dog if he let me. There's a little thing called compassion. Try it. It might make you a happier person.

[Lady Chew]

But that is not all you said, I can agree with what you said in this post but would not go on a cruise ship and start questioning people which is what you said in your first post.

 

You would be surprised what people are thrown off cruise ships for.

 

This is just making me chuckle ... I'm not even going to try to explain ... but I will keep doing what I do when I see people taking advantage of regulations which are put in place for individuals with handicaps ... and I guarantee I will never be thrown off a cruise ship for it!

[k9x8]

Wow. Just exactly how did you know the man was a "faker"? You admit he was a vet. Are you an expert in therapy dogs? Or just "ratty" dogs? Therapy dogs have done wonders for veterans who have returned and are dealing with horrible traumas and PTSD. Are you saying that his traumas aren't as important as your allergies? I have allergies and I'd happily give my seat in a diner to the vet and his dog. I'd just move right over and make room - and then thank him for his service. And pat the dog if he let me. There's a little thing called compassion. Try it. It might make you a happier person.

 

Yes!!!!!!

Thank you.

[dkjretired]

This is just making me chuckle ... I'm not even going to try to explain ... but I will keep doing what I do when I see people taking advantage of regulations which are put in place for individuals with handicaps ... and I guarantee I will never be thrown off a cruise ship for it!

 

It makes me chuckle too since I agree with you except for the confrontational part which you admitted.

Edited May 24, 2015 by dkjretired

[keithm]

Wow. Just exactly how did you know the man was a "faker"? You admit he was a vet. Are you an expert in therapy dogs? Or just "ratty" dogs? Therapy dogs have done wonders for veterans who have returned and are dealing with horrible traumas and PTSD. Are you saying that his traumas aren't as important as your allergies? I have allergies and I'd happily give my seat in a diner to the vet and his dog. I'd just move right over and make room - and then thank him for his service. And pat the dog if he let me. There's a little thing called compassion. Try it. It might make you a happier person.

It was in our local paper & the local TV showed the vet & his dog. Sorry, but if it's a service animal,fine. "Therapy" animal, sorry no way! There was a posted sign on a bar in Woodstock,VT. this weekend.(Memorial Day weekend).."Service animals, admitted. Therapy animals whose sole purpose is to provide therapy or comfort,but DO NOT conform to the standards as set by the "ADA" guidelines for service animals, will not be admitted at any time". I guess that settles it for me. When the VA goes along with the ADA, then I'll support it, but not until. Call me heartless whatever! By all means feel free to give up your seat. By sanitary guidelines, I'm just not in favor of animals in restaurants around food.. If the dog fouls the floor right by where you're sitting, by all means feel free to clean up after it!

Edited May 26, 2015 by keithm
additions

[alexspepa]

It was in our local paper & the local TV showed the vet & his dog. Sorry, but if it's a service animal,fine. "Therapy" animal, sorry no way! There was a posted sign on a bar in Woodstock,VT. this weekend.(Memorial Day weekend).."Service animals, admitted. Therapy animals whose sole purpose is to provide therapy or comfort,but DO NOT conform to the standards as set by the "ADA" guidelines for service animals, will not be admitted at any time". I guess that settles it for me. When the VA goes along with the ADA, then I'll support it, but not until. Call me heartless whatever! By all means feel free to give up your seat. By sanitary guidelines, I'm just not in favor of animals in restaurants around food.. If the dog fouls the floor right by where you're sitting, by all means feel free to clean up after it!

 

this is from the 2011 ADA section on Service Animals:

 

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

 

I am not sure why you think the VA trumps the ADA, but the first is a government agency while the second is a law. The ADA specifically recognizes dogs trained to intervene in PTSD anxiety attacks as a Service Animal; the question regarding the vet and his dog would be was the animal trained to intervene or was it just a comfort dog? Either way the VA has no jurisdiction or bearing in this matter as far as I can tell.

[keithm]

this is from the 2011 ADA section on Service Animals:

 

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

 

I am not sure why you think the VA trumps the ADA, but the first is a government agency while the second is a law. The ADA specifically recognizes dogs trained to intervene in PTSD anxiety attacks as a Service Animal; the question regarding the vet and his dog would be was the animal trained to intervene or was it just a comfort dog? Either way the VA has no jurisdiction or bearing in this matter as far as I can tell.

Sorry, I didn't word that properly.It's up to the ADA to change the law involving therapy animals for vets. To get back to Winigirl's gripe..It was a therapy dog,not a service dog. The pet owner/vet looked like he was 75, not exactly someone recently back from service. The poor cafe owner was besieged by people who had no knowledge of the law, but ONLY what THEY thought was right. The cafe owner gave in. Now there's all kinds of dogs being let in. The sign posted on that bar door in Woodstock,Vermont obviously shows the propriator trying to weed out the legitimate from the illegitimate, when it come to service v/s therapy dogs. Again this morning I saw a woman walk out of a Sam's club with a ratty looking small poodle with a vest(poorly made,by the way) on it that said "Service dog". I mean people really!!

[RDC1]

this is from the 2011 ADA section on Service Animals:

 

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

 

I am not sure why you think the VA trumps the ADA, but the first is a government agency while the second is a law. The ADA specifically recognizes dogs trained to intervene in PTSD anxiety attacks as a Service Animal; the question regarding the vet and his dog would be was the animal trained to intervene or was it just a comfort dog? Either way the VA has no jurisdiction or bearing in this matter as far as I can tell.

 

Yes, the key is that the dog, even in the case of PTSD, must be trained to perform specific tasks. So if the dog was properly trained specifically to deal with PTSD then it meets the definition of a service dog and is allowed under ADA.

 

If on the other hand the dog has not received such training and is a "therapy dog" that is not trained to perform specific functions then it is not covered.

 

Now it is legal for staff to ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform.

 

A response that it is a therapy dog does not meet the definition of the work or task that the dog has been trained to perform.

Edited May 27, 2015 by RDC1

[k9x8]

http://wtop.com/news/2013/09/a-veteran-a-dog-and-a-lifesaving-story/

 

A good article about k9s for Warriors, and a wonderful German Shepherd.

As I said earlier, this is a process, not a doctor's <wink> note.

 

FYI: Dogs in restaurants is common in Europe. No big deal. I'm more afraid og catching something from a server, a cook, or another patron.

[Winnigirl]

It was in our local paper & the local TV showed the vet & his dog. Sorry, but if it's a service animal,fine. "Therapy" animal, sorry no way! There was a posted sign on a bar in Woodstock,VT. this weekend.(Memorial Day weekend).."Service animals, admitted. Therapy animals whose sole purpose is to provide therapy or comfort,but DO NOT conform to the standards as set by the "ADA" guidelines for service animals, will not be admitted at any time". I guess that settles it for me. When the VA goes along with the ADA, then I'll support it, but not until. Call me heartless whatever! By all means feel free to give up your seat. By sanitary guidelines, I'm just not in favor of animals in restaurants around food.. If the dog fouls the floor right by where you're sitting, by all means feel free to clean up after it!

 

Well, I guess I'm just not the kind to worry too much whether a dog is a "service" dog or a "therapy" dog.

[ruthnlarry]

We just returned from a RCCL cruise on Navigator of the Seas, and encountered a small dog, perhaps a pomeranian, wearing an emotional support dog vest.

 

Although we did not confront the owner, we tried to lodge a complaint with the restaurant manager of the Windjammer who said that nothing could be done, and that we should go to Guest Relations. Guest Relations said that they could not do anything except to investigate the matter. There was never any follow-up.

 

We also discussed this matter in depth with the hostess of the Diamond Lounge. She was not aware of the recent media coverage of these emotional support animals, and was surprised that these certificates and vests could be purchased on the internet. The hostess said that the Captain or ship officers can not prevent these animals from boarding. This is a decision made by RCCL prior to the cruise.

 

From RCCL's website: http://www.royalcaribbean.com/contentWithHero.do?pagename=service_animals

 

"Royal Caribbean International welcomes service dogs on all ships.* Please note we do not accept pets.

 

A service dog is defined as "any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability." Service dogs are not considered pets.

 

Evidence that a dog is a service dog is helpful but not required (such as identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses and/or tags or the credible verbal assurance of the person with a disability using the dog)." and

 

"If you have an animal that does not meet the definition of a service animal (i.e. a dog trained to perform a task) but must accompany you in order to assist you with your disability, please contact our Access Department at least 60 days prior to sailing."

 

With this policy, it appears that almost anybody can bring a dog on board.

 

RCCL, Celebrity, and the other cruise lines need to be informed in writing, that if they continue to allow these "fake emotional support animals onboard, then they will lose our future business.

[keithm]

Well, I guess I'm just not the kind to worry too much whether a dog is a "service" dog or a "therapy" dog.

I'd say pay attention to ruthnlarry. They seem to have it on the ball. In our establishment trust me..unless it's Service Animal, it doesn't get in, period!