"service" animals-where do we draw the line?

[Azulann]

These dogs in strollers seem to be a much more common sight on cruise ships lately. We recently cruised on the Allure TA. There were 5 "service dogs" on board and 2 of those were in strollers!!

They had a special grass box on the promenade deck to do their business in.

I did see one of the pets in the Promenade cafe and folks were stroking it then helping themselves to cookies:eek::rolleyes:

 

Thanks for the update. It seems that these cruiser with their stroller dogs tend to book TA according to the sightings from posters on this thread.

 

Another reason I would not book a TA,:cool: besides too many days at sea.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Azulann

[cle-guy]

I'm sorry but this s simply not true...the ADA says:

A place of public accommodation or public entity may not ask an individual with a disability to pay a surcharge, even if people accompanied by pets are required to pay fees.

 

In addition many states have laws that make it a crime to deny admittance or charge an extra fee to a person with a Service Animal.

 

The dogs in strollers are most certainly NOT covered by ADA, as the animals do not perform any "work" for their owners on their behalf.

 

Theses animals are protected instead under the Airline Carriers Act and the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988, however these do not require hotels to accept such animals without fee, only those covered under ADA can stay in hotels with no fee.

[alexspepa]

The dogs in strollers are most certainly NOT covered by ADA, as the animals do not perform any "work" for their owners on their behalf.

 

Theses animals are protected instead under the Airline Carriers Act and the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988, however these do not require hotels to accept such animals without fee, only those covered under ADA can stay in hotels with no fee.

 

Hey Curt - I absolutely agree with you and I was referring to Service Animals; and I think it is so important to distinguish between real disabled people with legitimate Service Animals and the imposter owners.

 

Having said that some Service Animals detect low sugar, epilepsy attacks, etc, and I suppose it is possible that they would be small enough to be in a stroller? However anyone who lets their dog eat at the buffet or in public period (unless it is a reward snack - almost always not people food) or bark (unless alerting to a situation or condition) or act in a bad way is not the owner of a real Service Animal.

While I do think it is important to report these fakers, I would be hesitant to start an argument myself, especially on a cruise ship, as I could be the one escorted off the boat if the security people misunderstood what was happening.

I know Roz who has the Service Dog thread has no problem shaming the shameless, but since she herself is always accompianed by her dog Horton her aguments would carry much more weight than mine.

Edited May 20, 2015 by alexspepa

[dkjretired]

Nothing, they're simply following the laws and regulations. So long as the woman presented a document from her Doctor establishing her dog as an emotional support animal, they have to let her on. Not under the ADA regulations (which don't cover emotional support animals) but rather the Airline Carriers Act and the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988.

 

I actually do not think there is any law that REQUIRES crusie lines to accept animals, since they are neither a landlord nor airline, but I think they have decided as in industry that if animals can fly, they can also ride a ship, again to avoid any issues with legal ramifications.

 

Celebrity is simply erring on the side of caution, to avoid potential lawsuits from those who travel with service animals under doctor's prescription (which is all thats needed, and of course we know this can be done online by anyone for a small fee). The intent of the various related laws are to make access EASY for those how need it, unfortunately, the openness of the regulations, allows for lots of abuse, though without it, those who DO need the animals, it makes their lives work.

 

Celebrity is also likely well-aware a large population of theirs is of a mature age, and find many of those folks have such animals and arrangements, and of course are working to keep them as customers. Clearly the doggies in the stroller is a great customer, as so many of us have sailed with this person.

 

However what X SHOULD be doing, is if they see a handler feeding their animal anywhere besides in their cabin, they need to address such situations, as their own rules prohibit feeding animals form the table when traveling with such animals. The rules prohibit the animals from sitting on chairs, swimming in the pool, and walking on the grass on S class ships. But this falls into that "black hole" as does balcony smokers, where sure we can alert X to the issues then by the time X gets there to observe, be that in 30 seconds or 30 minutes, they themselves may not observe the behavior, therefore can say nothing to the person with the animal - at that point its your word against the animal owners word, and who is X to flip the coin and determine who was correct barring any other physical or photographic evidence.

 

Although I've yet to sail a line other than Celebrity I have to assume that all lines have the same small percentage of their cruisers who do the same thing, so it's not so much a Celebrity Problem, as a federal regulatory issue.

 

US Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that title III of ADA applies to foreign flagged cruise ships in American Waters. Title III mostly deals with barriers however the Service Dog sections of the law are in Title III so there is actually a law which applies as per US Supreme Court.

Case is Spector V Norwegian Cruise lInes.

[photomikey]

The dogs in strollers are most certainly NOT covered by ADA, as the animals do not perform any "work" for their owners on their behalf.

 

Theses animals are protected instead under the Airline Carriers Act and the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988, however these do not require hotels to accept such animals without fee, only those covered under ADA can stay in hotels with no fee.

ADA does not mention strollers, and under current interpretation of the law a dog does not have to walk around to "work". At which point the cruise line must ask "Is that a service dog? If so, it's free. If it's not, it'll be $50/day. By the way, there is no documentation required to prove it's a service dog, you just say it is and we'll take your word for it."

 

And now you understand why more hotels are waiving pet fees. Because no one is paying them anyway.

[cle-guy]

US Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that title III of ADA applies to foreign flagged cruise ships in American Waters. Title III mostly deals with barriers however the Service Dog sections of the law are in Title III so there is actually a law which applies as per US Supreme Court.

Case is Spector V Norwegian Cruise lInes.

 

Would this law require Celebrity to require ADA coverage of dogs if they are sailing to and from foreign ports - i.e. when they are not in caribbean and have no US port calls?

 

That is to say, can X only allow then on US cruses, and then when in foreign ports, disallow them as they are not in US waters (depending on the local laws of the foreign ports)?

[dkjretired]

Would this law require Celebrity to require ADA coverage of dogs if they are sailing to and from foreign ports - i.e. when they are not in caribbean and have no US port calls?

 

That is to say, can X only allow then on US cruses, and then when in foreign ports, disallow them as they are not in US waters (depending on the local laws of the foreign ports)?

 

Good question, same concept as reporting Noro breakouts, they are required to report them when sailing in U.S. Ports but not for foreign sailings. They do not report them for foreign sailings. The court decision however dealt mostly with barriers so they can't really change infrastructure when they sail out of country. They could probably get away with not allowing dogs on foreign sailings but for a number of reasons they don't.

[Hlitner]

The problem with cruises that depart from ports outside the USA is that the dog owners need to get their dogs into the embarkation port country. This can sometimes be complicated requiring various Vet certificates and even quarantine (in some countries). And then there is the issue of flying with your dog! So most of these faux service dogs will not be found on cruises leaving from ports outside the USA.

 

Hank

[keithm]

By certified I meant ADA guide dogs as I see with blind owners. I was of the impression that these dogs were trained and certified. Guess I was wrong.

I'm not sure you are wrong. Perhaps Alexspepa is incorrect. If he's not, then he can provide the proof he is correct by giving a website that provides that proof.

[alexspepa]

I'm not sure you are wrong. Perhaps Alexspepa is incorrect. If he's not, then he can provide the proof he is correct by giving a website that provides that proof.

happy to oblige...below is a link to the 2010 regulations; since 2010 the ADA has issued revisions that limit Service Animals to Dogs and Miniature Horses only. Also they are allowing training of Service Dogs for PTSD...

 

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

Here is the section regarding what an organization can ask of a person with a Service Animal:

 

When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

 

So to clarify my previous statement - real Service Dogs are as you said highly trained (the process can take several years including the puppy training and not all dogs graduate) and while a training center for Service Animals may in fact issue a diploma or certificate, the ADA does not require such a document and does not recognize such documents as they are not required. Certain states such as NC do ask for certification because of the state law which actually enhances the ADA by providing the the possible use of criminal charges for denying entrance to a legitimate Service Animal and also for the falsely claiming an animal is a Service Animal when it is not.

 

CCI which is one of the larger training organizations for Service Animals is actively campaigning for legislation to require the certification mentioned by Snit13 in an effort to reduce the use of fake Service Animals.

 

Most of my information comes from reading and following the wonderful thread on Cruise Critic found here - be forewarned it is over 700 pages long and has been avidly followed since 2007, but the stories of the contributors about their adventures with their Service Dogs and puppys in training are fantastic:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=585728&page=725

Edited May 21, 2015 by alexspepa

[cle-guy]

The problem with cruises that depart from ports outside the USA is that the dog owners need to get their dogs into the embarkation port country. This can sometimes be complicated requiring various Vet certificates and even quarantine (in some countries). And then there is the issue of flying with your dog! So most of these faux service dogs will not be found on cruises leaving from ports outside the USA.

 

Hank

 

These are all relatively simple procedure for many countries (albeit with Australia in the news recently, many may think its far more difficult than it truly is).

 

The UK used to require a lengthy quarantine, but relaxed that requirement a few years back.

 

In general all that's needed is proof of vaccinations within a particular period of time, a "Certified" veterinarian inspection of the animal pre-departure, some countries require a subsequent inspection on arrival, many countries required the animal to be microchipped to ensure tracking. So basically, just a trip to the Vet within a week of traveling, assuming al shots are given in a timely manner (some shots do require having been administered within or outside of particular timelines (to ensure they are working).

 

Some countries have their own version of ADA laws, and they sometimes allow service animals in with fewer requirements.

 

It's really not a difficult process - I travel with my dog quite a bit so have spent quite a bit of time researching these things, and was surprised to see that at least in Europe, UK and Canada , the procedures are quite simple. I have a website I use that provides detailed information and forms and instructions based on countries planned to be visited.

[MickD]

P&O cruises in the uk wont let emotional support dogs on.

Only legit assistance dogs that are certified, and proof must be shown.

All dogs must have had a tapeworm course of tablets before cruise, and again proof from a vet is required.

All dogs must wear a harness when out of the cabin,are not allowed to be fed out of the cabin.

In the buffet they must stay at the table and are not allowed near the food area, childrens areas and immediately near the pool are also out of bounds.

So there will be no little fluffies in strollers over here :D

[Snit13]

These are all relatively simple procedure for many countries (albeit with Australia in the news recently, many may think its far more difficult than it truly is).

 

The UK used to require a lengthy quarantine, but relaxed that requirement a few years back.

 

In general all that's needed is proof of vaccinations within a particular period of time, a "Certified" veterinarian inspection of the animal pre-departure, some countries require a subsequent inspection on arrival, many countries required the animal to be microchipped to ensure tracking. So basically, just a trip to the Vet within a week of traveling, assuming al shots are given in a timely manner (some shots do require having been administered within or outside of particular timelines (to ensure they are working).

 

Some countries have their own version of ADA laws, and they sometimes allow service animals in with fewer requirements.

 

It's really not a difficult process - I travel with my dog quite a bit so have spent quite a bit of time researching these things, and was surprised to see that at least in Europe, UK and Canada , the procedures are quite simple. I have a website I use that provides detailed information and forms and instructions based on countries planned to be visited.

 

Do these so called emotional support dogs sail for free? How does cruise line know these dogs don't have flees? Extremely allergic to flee bites and once dog leaves cabin flees bite people, so I have been told.

[cle-guy]

Do these so called emotional support dogs sail for free? How does cruise line know these dogs don't have flees? Extremely allergic to flee bites and once dog leaves cabin flees bite people, so I have been told.

 

Yes they do sail free. Here's a link to the full policy. You have to then click the link in there under ANIMALS to popup the details window.

 

How do we know no passenger brings on lice? What about the passengers that bring on Noro that then affect several others (this is far more common, and likely more life threatening than anyone reporting a flea bite on the ship).

 

It's not a perfect sanitary world we live in.

 

People aren't bringing a flea-ridden dog on board anymore than people are bringing their lice-ridden children on a ship.

 

I've got severe hardwood tree flowering allergies, but they never pull all the trees out of the ports when I visit, I have to manage and be prepared. Sinus spray, saline spray and 2 a day meds when needed.

[keithm]

happy to oblige...below is a link to the 2010 regulations; since 2010 the ADA has issued revisions that limit Service Animals to Dogs and Miniature Horses only. Also they are allowing training of Service Dogs for PTSD...

 

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

Here is the section regarding what an organization can ask of a person with a Service Animal:

 

When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

 

So to clarify my previous statement - real Service Dogs are as you said highly trained (the process can take several years including the puppy training and not all dogs graduate) and while a training center for Service Animals may in fact issue a diploma or certificate, the ADA does not require such a document and does not recognize such documents as they are not required. Certain states such as NC do ask for certification because of the state law which actually enhances the ADA by providing the the possible use of criminal charges for denying entrance to a legitimate Service Animal and also for the falsely claiming an animal is a Service Animal when it is not.

 

CCI which is one of the larger training organizations for Service Animals is actively campaigning for legislation to require the certification mentioned by Snit13 in an effort to reduce the use of fake Service Animals.

 

Most of my information comes from reading and following the wonderful thread on Cruise Critic found here - be forewarned it is over 700 pages long and has been avidly followed since 2007, but the stories of the contributors about their adventures with their Service Dogs and puppys in training are fantastic:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=585728&page=725

Thank you for posting the links. Though a business can't inquire about a person's need for a service animal, the rest of us certainly can. I have no problem voicing my opinion when I see some of these frauds in stores & trying to get into restaurants. It's pretty easy to spot. Just read the many observations from members on here & you see what I mean. I get real tired of "But she gives me emotional support!" I have no problem asking that the person & their pet be asked to leave the establishment.

[cheeseheads4ever]

I have no problem with service dogs either for people who truly need them and are disabled. But as with anything people abuse it. A service animal is one thing. A lady pushing a dog dressed in a tu tu in a baby buggy thru T.J Maxx is another.

The lady with a kangaroo has lost her mind. Don't these people realize no one wants to sit next to a kangaroo in a restaurant?if I want to see a kangaroo I go to the zoo. Its unsanitary and disgusting.People just abuse the system. I agree these animals need to be registered and the owners should have to show card and should have them in a harness that says service animal score they can get in any public building. Not pushing them in a baby buggy. Although they sell these harnesses at our local flea market to anyone. I'm sure they make them for kangaroos. All I can say is people use your common sense if you have any..

[Mr. Click]

So you are telling me I can't bring my therapy elephant on the Silhouette next week????? Damn... I may have to cancel :(.

 

Yes I am kidding....but I do get fed up with people who abuse a rule just because they can and then they ruin it for everyone else.

[Hlitner]

Ok folks, so we can all agree that Celebrity (and other cruise lines) do not do much (or anything) to eliminate faux Service Dogs. So now we read (today) about Beaver Dam, WI where they have now proposed a new city ordinance that would limit Service Animals to only dogs and Minature Horses (wonder when we will see one of those in a baby carriage on a cruise). The problem? A resident tried to bring a Kangaroo into McDonalds! Rumor has it that the next destination of that duo (owner and Roo) will be a cruise ship :). Kind of boggles the mind to picture a roo hopping through the MDR.

 

Hank

[cle-guy]

Ok folks, so we can all agree that Celebrity (and other cruise lines) do not do much (or anything) to eliminate faux Service Dogs. So now we read (today) about Beaver Dam, WI where they have now proposed a new city ordinance that would limit Service Animals to only dogs and Minature Horses (wonder when we will see one of those in a baby carriage on a cruise). The problem? A resident tried to bring a Kangaroo into McDonalds! Rumor has it that the next destination of that duo (owner and Roo) will be a cruise ship :). Kind of boggles the mind to picture a roo hopping through the MDR.

 

Hank

 

ADA already only covers dogs and horses, not cats or any other animals.

 

Restaurants already do not have to allow in any animal deemed emotional support (not ADA) as Emotional Support animals have coverage only under lodging and living establishments and Airlines. Emotional support animals have no limitation as to what animal they are - but in the case of taking one to a restaurant, support/therapy animals have no rights to guarantee access.

 

So passing that law to limit service animals to Dogs and Horses - it's already the Federal Law covered under ADA. Mini horses were added in after the law took affect, as they can be used by mobility impaired folks to hold them up and lead them about.

 

This instance is a clear case of where the public needs better education as to difference between ADA covered Service animals, and Non-ADA covered Support/Therapay animals. Even in this thread where it's been discussed several times, people continue to use Service and Therapy/Support animals as the same thing, when they are in fact VERY DIFFERENT and have different regulations and protections that apply.

Edited May 22, 2015 by cle-guy

[cle-guy]

Thank you for posting the links. Though a business can't inquire about a person's need for a service animal, the rest of us certainly can. I have no problem voicing my opinion when I see some of these frauds in stores & trying to get into restaurants. It's pretty easy to spot. Just read the many observations from members on here & you see what I mean. I get real tired of "But she gives me emotional support!" I have no problem asking that the person & their pet be asked to leave the establishment.

 

The funny part, is where you are thinking they are breaking some laws, what you suggest amounts almost to harassment on your part.

 

I guarantee you that should someone call out another on the ship and not let it go, all that person with the animal needs to do is get X Security who will likely tell you to lay off and follow the onboard Code of Conduct - remember, X has already deemed the animal acceptable by way of allowing it on the ship - your argument to the contrary will bear zero weight in the discussion.

[alexspepa]

The funny part, is where you are thinking they are breaking some laws, what you suggest amounts almost to harassment on your part.

 

I guarantee you that should someone call out another on the ship and not let it go, all that person with the animal needs to do is get X Security who will likely tell you to lay off and follow the onboard Code of Conduct - remember, X has already deemed the animal acceptable by way of allowing it on the ship - your argument to the contrary will bear zero weight in the discussion.

 

excellent advice - in fact I would say that you would be the person most likely escorted off the ship for being a "threat".

Edited May 22, 2015 by alexspepa

[keesar]

Ok folks, so we can all agree that Celebrity (and other cruise lines) do not do much (or anything) to eliminate faux Service Dogs. So now we read (today) about Beaver Dam, WI where they have now proposed a new city ordinance that would limit Service Animals to only dogs and Minature Horses (wonder when we will see one of those in a baby carriage on a cruise). The problem? A resident tried to bring a Kangaroo into McDonalds! Rumor has it that the next destination of that duo (owner and Roo) will be a cruise ship :). Kind of boggles the mind to picture a roo hopping through the MDR.

 

Hank

 

That kangaroo was wearing a diaper and rides in a car seat.

 

Anyone can buy a service dog vest for their dog. It is a shame that there are so many frauds out there that take away from the really deserving people. Most times, you can detect the frauds.

[dkjretired]

That kangaroo was wearing a diaper and rides in a car seat.

 

Anyone can buy a service dog vest for their dog. It is a shame that there are so many frauds out there that take away from the really deserving people. Most times, you can detect the frauds.

 

I think this is in this thread earlier or that other much larger thread but only dogs and miniature horses are considered service animals. This comes from an opinion of the US Attorney General's office based on the ADA. Horses have different requirements. Here's a link to AGs opinion.

 

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

I understand some of the things that people do, I worked in a supermarket and a woman came in all the time with her "service parakeet." Sat on her shoulder and supposedly had something to do with balance....

Edited May 22, 2015 by dkjretired

[Lady Chew]

I would never get into an argument with anyone ... but if I see anyone who I think is faking it, I will ask about what the service provided is. And snort or make a comment to them. I try to find out where they're from so I can send a photo to the appropriate state authority and perhaps local political reps(takes some research).

 

If I ever see an animal in any of the restaurants on a cruise ship, I will also take a photo to send to the Coast Guard, CDC, health dept, whatever ... maybe even FOX news :eek:

 

As long as no one complains to the authorities, they have no reason to even think about changing the regs ...

 

I have absolutely no problem with service animals on a ship or in public, and really no problem with emotional support animals, either, as long as they are truly needed for a legitimate purpose ...

[dkjretired]

I would never get into an argument with anyone ... but if I see anyone who I think is faking it, I will ask about what the service provided is. And snort or make a comment to them. I try to find out where they're from so I can send a photo to the appropriate state authority and perhaps local political reps(takes some research).

 

If I ever see an animal in any of the restaurants on a cruise ship, I will also take a photo to send to the Coast Guard, CDC, health dept, whatever ... maybe even FOX news :eek:

 

As long as no one complains to the authorities, they have no reason to even think about changing the regs ...

 

I have absolutely no problem with service animals on a ship or in public, and really no problem with emotional support animals, either, as long as they are truly needed for a legitimate purpose ...

 

Another one thrown off the ship....You realize that if you ask the person with the dog, they have no obligation to answer you and if you ask the crew they are not allowed under law to tell you...

Edited May 23, 2015 by dkjretired