Can someone simplifly the PVSA act?

[cruiseintoheaven]

We were planning to sail on the Crown next May on the 20th, from Vancouver to Seattle, which arrives in port on the morning of the 21st, then continue on to do the Alaska Inside passage R/T from Seattle....same ship, no break or anything between. I've tried to break down the PVSA act to determine if this a violation....but I don't have time to go to law school between now and the cruise. Can someone net this out for me in say.....third grade, possibly fourth grade verbage? Many thanks in advance.

[IECalCruiser]

No violation. The PVSA does not apply to cruises that start or end in a foreign port. Your cruise starts in Vancouver and will eventually end in Seattle so you are OK.

 

As far as simplified verbiage, I will leave that to someone else [emoji33]

Edited September 23, 2015 by IECalCruiser

[VibeGuy]

PVSA = no voyages or combinations of voyages that transport customers on the same ship, starting in one US port and ending in another US port, unless the voyage or combination of voyages calls at a Distant Foreign Port (outside North/Central America, other than Aruba, Bonaire or Curacao), or there is a 24-hour off-ship period.

[Mingus]

No violation since the 2nd leg of your B2B is Seattle round-trip.

[Loonbeam]

Short version. You cannot go between 2 DIFFERENT US ports without stopping at a 'far foreign port'.

[XBGuy]

I'm not a lawyer, and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express, last night, but I think it is a violation.

 

This happened to me a year ago. I wanted to take the last Alaska Cruise out of Seattle, stay on the ship to Vancouver and, then, stay on the ship to Los Angeles. Since I wanted all the i's dotted, and did not want to change cabins, I booked it through my Personal Cruise Consultant (that just sounds hilarious to me). A day later she called and said, "No can do. Violation of the Pasenger Services Act." She wanted to look at us getting off in Seattle, and taking a train to Vancouver, but I was just not interested in that and cancelled the whole thing.

 

I did a bit of on-line research at that time and, I think that Loonbeam summarizes the situation quite well.

 

Short version. You cannot go between 2 DIFFERENT US ports without stopping at a 'far foreign port'.

 

The problem that gets you is that North American ports are excluded from the list of "far (distant) foreign ports." So, stops in Canada and Mexico, don't count. Also, even though you are booking two cruises B2B, this is somehow construed as one cruise.

[VibeGuy]

I'm not a lawyer, and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express, last night, but I think it is a violation.

 

This happened to me a year ago. I wanted to take the last Alaska Cruise out of Seattle, stay on the ship to Vancouver and, then, stay on the ship to Los Angeles. Since I wanted all the i's dotted, and did not want to change cabins, I booked it through my Personal Cruise Consultant (that just sounds hilarious to me). A day later she called and said, "No can do. Violation of the Pasenger Services Act." She wanted to look at us getting off in Seattle, and taking a train to Vancouver, but I was just not interested in that and cancelled the whole thing.

 

I did a bit of on-line research at that time and, I think that Loonbeam summarizes the situation quite well.

 

 

 

The problem that gets you is that North American ports are excluded from the list of "far (distant) foreign ports." So, stops in Canada and Mexico, don't count. Also, even though you are booking two cruises B2B, this is somehow construed as one cruise.

 

The key difference is that your *start* was in a US port; the OP's start is in a Canadian port. The PVSA doesn't come into play when the voyage chain starts in a foreign port, distant or otherwise.

[yankprintster]

I think the OP's original cruise is OK and is not a violation.

 

Earlier this year, I tried to book a back-to-back cruise: The first cruise was a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver BC. The second cruise was a 3-day cruise from Vancouver BC to Los Angeles. My travel agent was prevented from booking the trip by Princess because of a PVSA violation.

 

So I was trying to do Seattle-to-Los Angeles and it was not allowed. I think the OP is doing Vancouver-Seattle which should be OK.

 

I wrote an email to my Congressman about the PVSA asking that they look into changing it, and got a call back from one of his staffers who was the maritime law "guy". He said that my Congressman is both aware of the PVSA and fully supports the PVSA as it is because "it's good for the country and its workers", and they had absoutely no interest in changing it. They were nice about it, and I was actually surprised to get a call back, but it was disappointing that they didn't even want to look into it. I was more surprised they even knew about it--frankly, I just figured this was one of those ancient laws that no one realized was still on the books. The staffer did mention they seldom get emails or calls about the PVSA and that they get more calls about the Jones Act.

[XBGuy]

The key difference is that your *start* was in a US port; the OP's start is in a Canadian port. The PVSA doesn't come into play when the voyage chain starts in a foreign port, distant or otherwise.

 

Yes VG, you are right. I completely misread his post.

 

Very embarassing.

[cruiseintoheaven]

Yes VG, you are right. I completely misread his post.

 

Very embarassing.

 

No need to be emarrassed....as the OP, with less than zero knowledge of the topc, I'm very appreciative of everyone that's tried to simplify this for me. It sounds like we are ok based on what I'm hearing, and we can look forward to our B2B. I would like to think that Princess has some IT process in place that would "flag" our plans if an issue, but I have no idea on that, doubtful my TA would necessarily catch it either, but I will probably ask her to validate the collective wisdom expressed here. Thanks to everyone for the help.

[abbydancer2003]

No need to be emarrassed....as the OP, with less than zero knowledge of the topc, I'm very appreciative of everyone that's tried to simplify this for me. It sounds like we are ok based on what I'm hearing, and we can look forward to our B2B. I would like to think that Princess has some IT process in place that would "flag" our plans if an issue, but I have no idea on that, doubtful my TA would necessarily catch it either, but I will probably ask her to validate the collective wisdom expressed here. Thanks to everyone for the help.

 

From what I've read here, if it was a violation (say SEA-Vancouver-LA) and you booked it, within a few days, you'd get a call from Princess (or your TA would) asking which one you wanted to cancel. I've never heard of it getting to the denial of boarding point.

[skynight]

Not a problem, but if it were Princess would not allow you to book the b2b.

[shanecindy21403]

It's not a violation. We are doing the same thing on the Ruby a couple of weeks before you. We are flying into Vancouver 3 days before then taking the 1 night down to Seattle, then we are doing the R/T out of Seattle.

[caribill]

Short version. You cannot go between 2 DIFFERENT US ports without stopping at a 'far foreign port'.

 

You cannot start your cruise in one USA port and end your cruise in a different USA port without having a port stop at a distant foreign port.

 

It does not matter how many segments are involved. It is the embarkation port and the disembarkation port that you will be on the ship that counts.

[cruiseintoheaven]

It's not a violation. We are doing the same thing on the Ruby a couple of weeks before you. We are flying into Vancouver 3 days before then taking the 1 night down to Seattle, then we are doing the R/T out of Seattle.

 

Well, if for some reason you get fined, detained, imprisoned, exiled, or possibly dropped off on a deserted island....please come back and post :D

 

Just kidding....thanks for the reply.

[cruiseintoheaven]

Thanks eveyone for the replies.....feeling much more confident (and excited) about our plans. :)

[bhopal21]

You cannot start your cruise in one USA port and end your cruise in a different USA port without having a port stop at a distant foreign port.

 

You can if you are sailing on a US registered ship.

 

We are taking an all American port cruise on American Cruise Lines which is US owned.

 

Mike:)

[DandDM]

Yes VG, you are right. I completely misread his post.

 

Very embarrassing.

 

It's very easy to get confused! I had a long argument with a rep at my TA once because I wanted to book the overnighter from Seattle to Vancouver, then change ships and go from Vancouver to San Fran (It was the Star to Island trip). He argued that it didn't matter if I changed ship, still a violation of the PVSA. We finally had to agree to disagree before he booked the trip (him saying that Princess would cancel the next day). I took the trip with no problems and, and here we are.

 

So very easy to get things mixed up, and most travel agents are not much help! The folks here are CC are much better informed.

Edited September 24, 2015 by DandDM

[Hlitner]

Passengers really do not have to concern themselves with the PVSA for a booked cruise. It is up to the cruise line to determine if there is a violation..in which case they normally will not allow anyone to book a segment that breaks the law. That being said, the penalty for violating the PVSA is usually $300 per passenger which would normally be the responsibility of the cruise line.

 

Hank

[caribill]

It's very easy to get confused! I had a long argument with a rep at my TA once because I wanted to book the overnighter from Seattle to Vancouver, then change ships and go from Vancouver to San Fran (It was the Star to Island trip). He argued that it didn't matter if I changed ship, still a violation of the PVSA. We finally had to agree to disagree before he booked the trip (him saying that Princess would cancel the next day). I took the trip with no problems and, and here we are.

 

 

And of course, you were right. It is only staying on the same ship that the act would apply.

 

It is the same with airlines. That is why you cannot take an Air Canada flight from Seattle to Chicago, but you can take Air Canada from Seattle to Toronto, get on a different plane, and fly to Chicago.

[IECalCruiser]

You can if you are sailing on a US registered ship.

 

 

 

We are taking an all American port cruise on American Cruise Lines which is US owned.

 

 

 

Mike:)

Those are pretty pricy cruises.

[cr8tiv1]

You can if you are sailing on a US registered ship.

 

We are taking an all American port cruise on American Cruise Lines which is US owned.

 

Mike:)

 

Besides Pride of America (which should have been the Pride of Aloha/NCL), I did not know that there was any other American Flagged Ship sailing from an American Port.

 

Don't get me started about all the drama that goes with the NCL cruise around the Hawaiian Islands. I could give you an earful plus some.

[caribill]

Besides Pride of America (which should have been the Pride of Aloha/NCL), I did not know that there was any other American Flagged Ship sailing from an American Port.

 

 

Don't think of these as a Princess type cruise ship.

 

Think of paddlewheel boats going up and down the Mississippi River.

 

(They also have some areas within USA waters that they sail.)

[bhopal21]

Don't think of these as a Princess type cruise ship.

 

Think of paddlewheel boats going up and down the Mississippi River.

 

(They also have some areas within USA waters that they sail.)

 

Only four of American Cruise Lines' eight ships are inland paddle wheelers, the other four are small conventional ships used for coastal and intracoastal cruises.

 

Mike:)

[tailspintom]

I think the OP's original cruise is OK and is not a violation.

 

Earlier this year, I tried to book a back-to-back cruise: The first cruise was a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver BC. The second cruise was a 3-day cruise from Vancouver BC to Los Angeles. My travel agent was prevented from booking the trip by Princess because of a PVSA violation.

 

So I was trying to do Seattle-to-Los Angeles and it was not allowed. I think the OP is doing Vancouver-Seattle which should be OK.

 

I wrote an email to my Congressman about the PVSA asking that they look into changing it, and got a call back from one of his staffers who was the maritime law "guy". He said that my Congressman is both aware of the PVSA and fully supports the PVSA as it is because "it's good for the country and its workers", and they had absoutely no interest in changing it. They were nice about it, and I was actually surprised to get a call back, but it was disappointing that they didn't even want to look into it. I was more surprised they even knew about it--frankly, I just figured this was one of those ancient laws that no one realized was still on the books. The staffer did mention they seldom get emails or calls about the PVSA and that they get more calls about the Jones Act.

 

Hello Yank,

 

Replies from my representatives are likewise nebulous. For once, I would like to see one of our good politicians outline exactly how the PVSA / Jones Acts have benefitted the good citizens in the last 10 years. Specifically, how many jobs has it saved? How many accidents in US waters has it prevented? These laws have long ago outlived their usefulness, if they were ever useful. My head explodes when I get these responses. In those rare moments when a representative gets back via phone I challenge them to give me precisely what the values are for their support of / against a bill. There, I said it and I can pet a cat without fear of injury.