Question about PSVA act (AKA Jones act)

[Tim,n,Sue]

Need a little clarification on the Passenger Service Act. For our upcoming TA on the Vision April 16 someone on our thread who just got off the Vision mentioned that a number of people missed embarkation due to weather as flights were delayed. She also mentioned that Tampa is having a period of bad weather that, if it continues, could potentially impact people flying in the day of the cruise. This prompted a small discussion on flying in the day before. Someone else mentioned that since we stop in Key west before 8 days at sea anyone who missed embarkation could board at Key West. My "extremely limited" understanding of the Passenger Service Act leads me to believe that this is not allowed as you cannot board in a U.S. port that was not the U.S. embarkation port. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

FYI. We are firm believers in arriving at least 1 day early.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Tim,n,Sue

[Clarea]

Need a little clarification on the Passenger Service Act. For our upcoming TA on the Vision April 16 someone on our thread who just got off the Vision mentioned that a number of people missed embarkation due to weather as flights were delayed. She also mentioned that Tampa is having a period of bad weather that, if it continues, could potentially impact people flying in the day of the cruise. This prompted a small discussion on flying in the day before. Someone else mentioned that since we stop in Key west before 8 days at sea anyone who missed embarkation could board at Key West. My "extremely limited" understanding of the Passenger Service Act leads me to believe that this is not allowed as you cannot board in a U.S. port that was not the U.S. embarkation port. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

FYI. We are firm believers in arriving at least 1 day early.

The PVSA only comes into play if the starting and ending points are US ports. Since your cruise is a TA, the PVSA does not come into play at all.

Edited April 5, 2016 by clarea

[CapeCodCruiser]

In a case where the ship departs & returns to the same port a passenger could embark at a second port in the US IF the ship then makes a stop at a distant foreign port:

 

The Passenger Vessel Services Act, however,

 

does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from and returning to the same U.S. port, provided the ship visits any foreign port;

 

does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from a U.S. port, visiting a distant foreign port, and then continuing to a second U.S. port. However, in order to embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a second U.S. port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America (Central America, Bermuda. the Bahamas, and all of the Caribbean except Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao, count as part of North America);

does not prevent a ship from taking on passengers at a U.S. port and then returning them to another U.S. city by ground or air, or vice versa, as long as the cruise ship returns to its departing point without stopping (a "cruise to nowhere"), or stops in at least one distant foreign port.

Edited April 5, 2016 by CapeCodCruiser

[Tim,n,Sue]

The PVSA only comes into play if the starting and ending points are US ports. Since your cruise is a TA, the PVSA does not come into play at all.

 

Thanks. I was hoping you would see this post.

[Tim,n,Sue]

In a case where the ship departs & returns to the same port a passenger could embark at a second port in the US IF the ship then makes a stop at a distant foreign port:

 

The Passenger Vessel Services Act, however,

 

does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from and returning to the same U.S. port, provided the ship visits any foreign port;

 

does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from a U.S. port, visiting a distant foreign port, and then continuing to a second U.S. port. However, in order to embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a second U.S. port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America (Central America, Bermuda. the Bahamas, and all of the Caribbean except Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao, count as part of North America);

does not prevent a ship from taking on passengers at a U.S. port and then returning them to another U.S. city by ground or air, or vice versa, as long as the cruise ship returns to its departing point without stopping (a "cruise to nowhere"), or stops in at least one distant foreign port.

 

And thank you as well for this detailed answer.

[knittinggirl]

I don't understand. You have to visit Aruba, etal or can't return to a US port. But I've gone on several round trip cruises out of Galveston to Cozumel, Grand Cayman and Falmouth.

 

There's also the whole round trip Seattle Alaska cruise. I doubt Victoria is a distant foreign port.

[KsucAts]

I don't understand. You have to visit Aruba, etal or can't return to a US port. But I've gone on several round trip cruises out of Galveston to Cozumel, Grand Cayman and Falmouth.

 

There's also the whole round trip Seattle Alaska cruise. I doubt Victoria is a distant foreign port.

 

The rule doesn't apply if you return to the same port that you left from - only a different US port like is done with Panama Canal cruises.

[Clarea]

I don't understand. You have to visit Aruba, etal or can't return to a US port. But I've gone on several round trip cruises out of Galveston to Cozumel, Grand Cayman and Falmouth.

 

There's also the whole round trip Seattle Alaska cruise. I doubt Victoria is a distant foreign port.

You only need to go to a distant foreign port if your cruise starts and ends in different US ports. If the cruise starts and ends in the same US port, then you can go to any foreign port, it does not have to be distant.

 

Of course, none of this applies to the OP's cruise, since that cruise starts in Tampa and ends in Barcelona.

[knittinggirl]

The rule doesn't apply if you return to the same port that you left from - only a different US port like is done with Panama Canal cruises.

 

 

Can we stop in South America on a Panama Canal trip? Why just those three islands you mentioned?

Edited April 5, 2016 by knittinggirl

[Clarea]

We're doing the two US ports, and certainly not going to Aruba, Etal on our Panama Cruise. We're stopping in Curacao.

Any of the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaraire, Curacao) qualify as a distant foreign port, as does any port in South America, such as Cartegena.

Edited April 5, 2016 by clarea

[knittinggirl]

On our Alaska Round Trip out of San Francisco, we were told if we missed the ship, they wouldn't let us reboard in future ports. The Guest Relations told us that's because we hadn't visited a foreign port first.

 

Others have complained of complications when trying to drive from Hilo to Kona and reboard on the Big Island in Hawaii.

 

What if we miss the ship in Honolulu and try to reboard in one of the other islands?

 

Some table mates told us they missed the flight, and couldn't board so they had to fly to Acapulco of all places.

 

The whole thing sounds like a cruiser's nightmare to me.

Edited April 5, 2016 by knittinggirl

[Clarea]

On our Alaska Round Trip out of San Francisco, we were told if we missed the ship, they wouldn't let us reboard in future ports. The Guest Relations told us that's because we hadn't visited a foreign port first. This is because the cruise would have changed from being a closed loop cruise to a cruise between two different US ports.

Others have complained of complications when trying to drive from Hilo to Kona and reboard on the Big Island in Hawaii. Need more info on the cruise.

 

What if we miss the ship in Honolulu and try to reboard in one of the other islands? Need more info on the cruise.

 

Some table mates told us they missed the flight, and couldn't board so they had to fly to Acapulco of all places.

 

The whole thing sounds like a cruiser's nightmare to me.

The PVSA does make it complicated. See responses in RED above.

Edited April 5, 2016 by clarea

[chengkp75]

On our Alaska Round Trip out of San Francisco, we were told if we missed the ship, they wouldn't let us reboard in future ports. The Guest Relations told us that's because we hadn't visited a foreign port first.

 

Others have complained of complications when trying to drive from Hilo to Kona and reboard on the Big Island in Hawaii.

 

What if we miss the ship in Honolulu and try to reboard in one of the other islands?

 

Some table mates told us they missed the flight, and couldn't board so they had to fly to Acapulco of all places.

 

The whole thing sounds like a cruiser's nightmare to me.

 

To adequately explain all of your scenarios, it would be necessary to know the original itinerary of each cruise, and then I can explain why or why not you could do what was intended per the PVSA. Lots of what the cruise lines disallow in the last couple of years has nothing to do with the PVSA, but rather with CBP procedures for handling passenger clearance, yet the line will continue to blame the PVSA.

[Cuizer2]

Need a little clarification on the Passenger Service Act. For our upcoming TA on the Vision April 16 someone on our thread who just got off the Vision mentioned that a number of people missed embarkation due to weather as flights were delayed. She also mentioned that Tampa is having a period of bad weather that, if it continues, could potentially impact people flying in the day of the cruise. This prompted a small discussion on flying in the day before. Someone else mentioned that since we stop in Key west before 8 days at sea anyone who missed embarkation could board at Key West. My "extremely limited" understanding of the Passenger Service Act leads me to believe that this is not allowed as you cannot board in a U.S. port that was not the U.S. embarkation port. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

FYI. We are firm believers in arriving at least 1 day early.

 

1) The PVSA is not AKA the Jones Act. The PVSA is from 1886 and applied to passengers. The Jones act is from 1920 and applies to maritime trade (goods).

 

2) The PVSA does not allow transportation of passengers between two US ports. There are some exceptions.

 

The ship's final destination is Europe. Thus, whether someone boards in Tampa or Key West, since the final destination is not a US city, there is no violation of the PVSA in this case.

[chengkp75]

1) The PVSA is not AKA the Jones Act. The PVSA is from 1886 and applied to passengers. The Jones act is from 1920 and applies to maritime trade (goods).

 

2) The PVSA does not allow transportation of passengers between two US ports. There are some exceptions.

 

The ship's final destination is Europe. Thus, whether someone boards in Tampa or Key West, since the final destination is not a US city, there is no violation of the PVSA in this case.

 

And yet, if you spoke to 100 different call center operators across all the mass-market lines, you would get about 80+ referring to the Jones Act.

[Cuizer2]

On our Alaska Round Trip out of San Francisco, we were told if we missed the ship, they wouldn't let us reboard in future ports. The Guest Relations told us that's because we hadn't visited a foreign port first.

 

Others have complained of complications when trying to drive from Hilo to Kona and reboard on the Big Island in Hawaii.

 

What if we miss the ship in Honolulu and try to reboard in one of the other islands?

 

Some table mates told us they missed the flight, and couldn't board so they had to fly to Acapulco of all places.

 

The whole thing sounds like a cruiser's nightmare to me.

 

The PVSA does make it complicated. See responses in RED above.

 

It is actually very simple. People who have a hard time understanding the PVSA are reading into it things that are not there. For example, the law applies to a ship, not to a cruise. Here is an eighteen page pamphlet put out by the CBP that explains the PVSA ...

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

 

Though there are some exceptions, simply put:

 

1) A foreign flagged ship cannot transport passengers between two US ports without a stop in a distant foreign port. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. The ABC islands are part of South America.

 

2) A foreign flagged ship on a closed loop (or round trip) route that begins in a US city must stop at one or more foreign ports. It does not have to be a distant foreign port.

 

That is it. If the cruise begins in a foreign port or ends in a foreign port then the PVSA does not apply. Certain exceptions are made for cruises that begin or end in Puerto Rico.

 

The fact that cruise A is legal and then the ship goes on cruise B does not mean that the combination of cruises A & B (aka B2B cruise) is legal. For example, and cruise that goes from Seattle to Vancouver, and then goes from Vancouver to Los Angeles (if it is the same ship for both cruises) would violate the PVSA as a B2B cruise because it would transport passengers from Seattle to Los Angeles. However, as cruise that went from 1) Seattle to Alaska and back to Seattle (with a port stop in Victoria), then from 2) Seattle to Vancouver, then from 3) Vancouver to San Francisco, then from 4) San Francisco to Ensenada would be legal. If you changed ships in San Francisco, the trip would be illegal.

[cruiseguy1016]

It is actually very simple. People who have a hard time understanding the PVSA are reading into it things that are not there. For example, the law applies to a ship, not to a cruise. Here is an eighteen page pamphlet put out by the CBP that explains the PVSA ...

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

 

Though there are some exceptions, simply put:

 

1) A foreign flagged ship cannot transport passengers between two US ports without a stop in a distant foreign port. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. The ABC islands are part of South America.

 

2) A foreign flagged ship on a closed loop (or round trip) route that begins in a US city must stop at one or more foreign ports. It does not have to be a distant foreign port.

 

That is it. If the cruise begins in a foreign port or ends in a foreign port then the PVSA does not apply. Certain exceptions are made for cruises that begin or end in Puerto Rico.

 

The fact that cruise A is legal and then the ship goes on cruise B does not mean that the combination of cruises A & B (aka B2B cruise) is legal. For example, and cruise that goes from Seattle to Vancouver, and then goes from Vancouver to Los Angeles (if it is the same ship for both cruises) would violate the PVSA as a B2B cruise because it would transport passengers from Seattle to Los Angeles. However, as cruise that went from 1) Seattle to Alaska and back to Seattle (with a port stop in Victoria), then from 2) Seattle to Vancouver, then from 3) Vancouver to San Francisco, then from 4) San Francisco to Ensenada would be legal. If you changed ships in San Francisco, the trip would be illegal.

 

That cleared it up :confused: :eek: Thank you ;)

[knittinggirl]

 

The fact that cruise A is legal and then the ship goes on cruise B does not mean that the combination of cruises A & B (aka B2B cruise) is legal. For example, and cruise that goes from Seattle to Vancouver, and then goes from Vancouver to Los Angeles (if it is the same ship for both cruises) would violate the PVSA as a B2B cruise because it would transport passengers from Seattle to Los Angeles. However, as cruise that went from 1) Seattle to Alaska and back to Seattle (with a port stop in Victoria), then from 2) Seattle to Vancouver, then from 3) Vancouver to San Francisco, then from 4) San Francisco to Ensenada would be legal. If you changed ships in San Francisco, the trip would be illegal.

 

Why illegal if you change ships in San Franscisco? I did this w/ a day between, and not even my TA discouraged me.

 

So complicated. We went on a closed circuit to Hawaii out of San Francisco. Spent the night in San Francisco, then took another closed circuit to Alaska. Didn't seem to raise any flags.

 

 

The cruise where we got all the warnings was a closed circuit San Franscisco. We did Ketchikan (I think), Juneau, Skagway, Icy Strait Point first (all telling us if we missed the ship they wouldn't let us reboard). If that happened, I hoped our insurance would cover us. Then we stopped in Victoria, then Astoria before returning to San Francisco. It was also the cruise where on embarkation day, we saw the Coast Guard with a man at the front of the ship manning a machine gun going back and forth the length of our ship over and over again, and accompanying us to the Golden Gate Bridge. I asked the Captain during the M&G, but he ducked the question.

 

The complaint I heard about Hawaii was getting off in Hilo and wanting to reboard the ship in Kona the next day. Would they let us board if we came up with that $600 penalty?

 

They didn't have cruise ships in mind back when they drafted this, and they should exempt cruise ships and their passengers.

Edited April 5, 2016 by knittinggirl

[Cuizer2]

So complicated. We went on a closed circuit to Hawaii out of San Francisco. Spent the night in San Francisco, then took another closed circuit to Alaska. Didn't seem to raise any flags.

 

 

The cruise where we got all the warnings was a closed circuit San Franscisco. We did Ketchikan (I think), Juneau, Skagway, Icy Strait Point first (all telling us if we missed the ship they wouldn't let us reboard). If that happened, I hoped our insurance would cover us. Then we stopped in Victoria, then Astoria before returning to San Francisco. It was also the cruise where on embarkation day, we saw the Coast Guard with a man at the front of the ship manning a machine gun going back and forth the length of our ship over and over again, and accompanying us to the Golden Gate Bridge. I asked the Captain during the M&G, but he ducked the question.

 

The complaint I heard about Hawaii was getting off in Hilo and wanting to reboard the ship in Kona the next day. Would they let us board if we came up with that $600 penalty?

 

I think some lawyers have way too much free time on their hands. They should exempt cruise ships from this stupidity.

 

You began and ended your trip in the same US city (San Francisco in this case). All you have to do is stop in one foreign port. I suspect that if this was one cruise you stopped in Victoria. If it was two cruises you stopped in both Ensenada and Victoria. Either way, the entire trip complied with the requirements of the PVSA.

 

The PVSA is there to protect the American passenger ship fleet. Of course you might have some trouble finding a working American passenger ship (there is one large cruise ship in Hawaii and several smaller cruise/expedition ships along the east and west coasts, plus some passenger ferries). However, this is an 1886 law and back then moving people by ship was far more important (as there was far less competition from airplanes and buses back then). But if you wish to change the PVSA, contact you local congressional representative. This being an election year, I'm sure (s)he will give your concerns all the attention it merritts.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Cuizer2

[knittinggirl]

You began and ended your trip in the same US city (San Francisco in this case). All you have to do is stop in one foreign port. I suspect that if this was one cruise you stopped in Victoria. If it was two cruises you stopped in both Ensenada and Victoria. Either way, the entire trip complied with the requirements of the PVSA.

Neither were distant foreign ports.

[Cuizer2]

Neither were distant foreign ports.

 

On a closed loop (round trip) cruise you do not need to stop in a distant foreign port. You only need to stop in a foreign port.

 

Only when the beginning and end cities are both US cities does a ship need to stop in a distant foreign port.

[knittinggirl]

On a closed loop (round trip) cruise you do not need to stop in a distant foreign port. You only need to stop in a foreign port.

 

Only when the beginning and end cities are both US cities does a ship need to stop in a distant foreign port.

But it's still illegal for me to get off the ship in Hilo, drive across the island and return to the ship the next day?

 

What happens to all those people that miss the ship because they're returning too late from private shore excursions? Do they miss out on the rest of the cruise?

 

This sounds horrible to me.

[Clarea]

...Only when the beginning and end cities are both different US cities does a ship need to stop in a distant foreign port.

 

Just adding the emphasis, because someone will ask down the line.:)

[Tim,n,Sue]

And yet, if you spoke to 100 different call center operators across all the mass-market lines, you would get about 80+ referring to the Jones Act.

 

I would tend to agree. This is copied right from the RCI website. Hmmmm....

 

Restrictions: Certain countries, such as the U.S., Italy and Norway, have cabotage laws affecting passenger movements. These laws restrict foreign flag passenger vessels (such as those operated by Royal Caribbean) from transporting guests from one port to another port in the same country. In the U.S., the cabotage law applicable to the cruise industry is commonly called the Jones Act but is legally titled the Passengers Services Act. A brief summary of this U.S. law follows:

Edited April 5, 2016 by Tim,n,Sue

[chengkp75]

Why illegal if you change ships in San Franscisco? I did this w/ a day between, and not even my TA discouraged me.

 

So complicated. We went on a closed circuit to Hawaii out of San Francisco. Spent the night in San Francisco, then took another closed circuit to Alaska. Didn't seem to raise any flags.

 

 

The cruise where we got all the warnings was a closed circuit San Franscisco. We did Ketchikan (I think), Juneau, Skagway, Icy Strait Point first (all telling us if we missed the ship they wouldn't let us reboard). If that happened, I hoped our insurance would cover us. Then we stopped in Victoria, then Astoria before returning to San Francisco. It was also the cruise where on embarkation day, we saw the Coast Guard with a man at the front of the ship manning a machine gun going back and forth the length of our ship over and over again, and accompanying us to the Golden Gate Bridge. I asked the Captain during the M&G, but he ducked the question.

 

The complaint I heard about Hawaii was getting off in Hilo and wanting to reboard the ship in Kona the next day. Would they let us board if we came up with that $600 penalty?

 

They didn't have cruise ships in mind back when they drafted this, and they should exempt cruise ships and their passengers.

 

Regarding your Alaskan cruise, yes, if you had boarded at any port prior to Vancouver, your cruise would have been from one US port to another US port, for instance from Juneau to San Francisco, but boarding in Vancouver would have been a cruise from a foreign port to a US port.

 

The USCG "Sea Marshals" are a routine thing, and they will board as many ships (not just cruise ships) as the particular Captain of the Port area has budget for. There will be an armed boarding party of 5-6 and frequently an armed RHIB boat (like the cruise ship's rescue boat) escorting the ship as well.

 

For the Hawaii cruise, this would have created two illegal cruises, from the West Coast to Hilo, and from Kona to the West Coast. Further, even had it been allowed by PVSA, each time a passenger manifest is changed (such as allowing folks to get off in Hilo, and again when boarding in Kona, an entire new manifest has to be prepared and submitted to CBP. CBP, under their regulations, then have to treat the voyage as no longer a closed loop cruise (even though 98% of the passengers were on a closed loop), but as an open jaw cruise (if instead of Hilo and Kona they were two foreign ports). While this does not affect the passengers' ability to travel on a BC/DL form of ID as on a closed loop, it does affect the disembarkation "interview" that CBP does, making it more like that of an arriving airliner from overseas than a closed loop cruise.

 

The fine is against the company, not you the passenger, and it is only the ticket contract that gives the company the right to pass it on to you. So, no, even if you wanted to pay the fine, the cruise line would not allow this to be arranged in advance, and if done at the spur of the moment, might not let the people re-embark in Kona.

 

How, exactly, do you exempt cruise ships and their passengers? The PVSA covers cruise ships, cargo ships that carry passengers, ferries, commuter boats and water taxis, sightseeing, whale watching, and casino boats, and even charter fishing boats. Another point, is that it took nearly 20 years to get the exemption for Puerto Rico passed through Congress, and it can all be wiped away as soon as someone buys a 30 year old 600 passenger ship and starts scheduled runs between Puerto Rico and the mainland as a US flag ship. Does the cruise industry want to spend the money for another fight like that to gain a general exemption to the PVSA? Apparently not, as they are perfectly willing to allow the status quo to exist.