Jones Act - this may be already out there, but new for me

[JennN]

This is what we booked - Hawaii to Vancouver

 

MY MIL booked and Alaska cruise (starting in Seattle and ending in Vancouver) and then wanted to do Vancouver to Hawaii. After she was booked (about an hour or so), she got a call from Carnival saying she couldn't do it as it was a violation of the Jones Act.

[S.S.Oceanlover]

I hope you are correct. I am also on the b2b sailing with the OP, so I'm REALLY interested in what Carnival has to say to her.

 

Believe me, unfortunately he is not right. Even if OP calls today and someone says it is allowed, at some point between now and the cruise date they will be notified and have to cancel one leg.

 

Bill

[thinfool]

The first cruise is Hawaii to Vancouver. Stop. Cruise over. Get off. new cruise starts. Vancouver to Seattle. Cruise done. This is why it is allowed.

This is not correct.

If a passenger disembarks ship #1 and boards ship #2 it works, but the passenger cannot reboard ship #1 for further passage to a US port.

 

 

With those definitions in mind, here's what's allowed:

 

* A cruise which starts and ends in the same US port, visits a nearby or distant foreign port, and where no permanent disembarkation is permitted during the cruise at any US port (because there has been no transportation BETWEEN US ports (Huh?)

* A cruise between different US ports where no permanent disembarkation is permitted along the way, but at least one port is a nearby foreign port

 

Please inform the source of this quote that they are incorrect.

[BEAV]

I'm 99.99% sure OP has 2 different booking numbers. That really doesn't come into play.

 

The only thing that matters is where you get on the ship for the first time and where you get off for the last time.

 

Bill

 

Yes, I realize a single booking number for both voyages doesn't in any way legalize an illegal itinerary. I was just curious what method the OP used to book the two sailings. Were they both booked at the same time, one before the other, etc.

 

We learned about this whole PVSA thing back to 2002 when we booked an illegal B2B on Holland (San Francisco to Vancouver, Vancouver to Seattle). We were issued documents, etc and were "ready to go" until 10 days before sailing when we were then notified our itinerary was illegal. So at least now cruise lines are getting better "catching" these illegal bookings much sooner in the game than at the last minute as was the case in 2002.

[BEAV]

"The Jones Act (also known as the Passenger Services Act) prohibits ships of Non-U.S registry from embarking and debarking guests at two different U.S ports. Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S ports, which is prohibited on foreign flagged ships."

 

You are traveling from Hawaii to Canada. You are then doing Vancouver and back? There is no issue.

 

The second leg is Vancouver to Seattle, not Vancouver to Vancouver. Thus the problem and PVSA violation.

[chengkp75]

The first cruise is Hawaii to Vancouver. Stop. Cruise over. Get off. new cruise starts. Vancouver to Seattle. Cruise done. This is why it is allowed. Or:

 

 

With those definitions in mind, here's what's allowed:

 

* A cruise which starts and ends in the same US port, visits a nearby or distant foreign port, and where no permanent disembarkation is permitted during the cruise at any US port (because there has been no transportation BETWEEN US ports (Huh?)

* A cruise between different US ports where no permanent disembarkation is permitted along the way, but at least one port is a nearby foreign port

 

Believe me, it is not allowed. Regardless of how the cruise line advertises and sells the cruises, CBP (who is the interested party here) treats your cruise as one "transportation", so while the two legs separately are legal, when combined they are not. The only way around this is to switch ships in Vancouver, or if somehow you could "permanently" disembark (remove your belongings and clear CBP) and get back on the same ship THE NEXT DAY in Vancouver, then the two legs would not be combined into one cruise.

 

Remember, when you do a back to back, you are considered an "in transit" passenger, and treated by CBP differently than disembarking passengers, because you are continuing on the same ship, and CBP doesn't care that it is a "different" cruise.

[poz222]

So sorry, but your itinerary will not be permitted as it is in fact a violation of the PVSA :-( I would start to think of alternatives (switch ship in Vancouver, disembark Vancouver and go to Seattle for another ship)? But the b2b with your chosen itinerary will not be possible.

 

Maybe disembark may 16 in Vancouver, fly to anchorage and spend an extra day there and board the Island Princess from Seward to Vancouver or spend the night in Vancouver and pick up the HAL Volendam on the 18 RT Vancouver?

Edited May 2, 2016 by poz222
Added options

[crzndeb]

Thank you Chengkp75 for finding this thread. Your knowledge and explanations always are spot on.

 

A simple search on Jones Act or PVSA will bring up numerous threads over the years.

 

Airlines have the basic same rules. Foreign airlines cannot fly between US cities, without first starting or ending in a foreign city.

 

This law protects US commerce. I'm sure the screams would be much louder if foreign vessels were allowed to move cargo (Jones Act) between US cities, taking away thousands of jobs from US workers.

 

These laws aren't as simple as some people think...it's not all about cruises.

[chengkp75]

Princess deals with this specific problem in a unique way. The have a Hawaii to Vancouver cruise, then a one night repo to Seattle, then a round trip Seattle to Alaska. To book both cruises, you simply have to get off the ship in Vancouver after the first cruise, make your own way to Seattle, and get back on the same ship. You just can't book the one night cruise.

 

I know that HAL and Princess often allow early disembarkation in Vancouver or Victoria, if those are the last two ports before Seattle, since the ship clears US CBP in Canada, and the line does not face the usual hassle of a new manifest caused by early disembarkation and how CBP handles this. If Vancouver or Victoria are the last ports of call, OP could ask Carnival if they could get early disembarkation in Canada.

Edited May 2, 2016 by chengkp75

[loubetti]

"The Jones Act (also known as the Passenger Services Act)

 

 

That is incorrect. The Jones Act applies to the shipping of freight / cargo only. The PVSA applies to passenger vessels. They often get mixed up at CC, but they are separate and not the same. The correct term is Passenger Vessel Services Act, or PVSA.

Edited May 2, 2016 by loubetti

[jakesnana]

Princess deals with this specific problem in a unique way. The have a Hawaii to Vancouver cruise, then a one night repo to Seattle, then a round trip Seattle to Alaska. To book both cruises, you simply have to get off the ship in Vancouver after the first cruise, make your own way to Seattle, and get back on the same ship. You just can't book the one night cruise.

 

I know that HAL and Princess often allow early disembarkation in Vancouver or Victoria, if those are the last two ports before Seattle, since the ship clears US CBP in Canada, and the line does not face the usual hassle of a new manifest caused by early disembarkation and how CBP handles this. If Vancouver or Victoria are the last ports of call, OP could ask Carnival if they could get early disembarkation in Canada.

 

I just checked the itinerary and once the ship leaves Vancouver on 4/30 it only stops in ports in Alaska and then disembarks in Seattle. No option to disembark in Canada :(

 

I guess I will be looking at the HAL ship that does the Inside Passage and leaves Vancouver on 4/30. It just STINKS, since it defeats the purpose of doing a B2B (not having to pack, move and unpack).

[poz222]

Princess deals with this specific problem in a unique way. The have a Hawaii to Vancouver cruise, then a one night repo to Seattle, then a round trip Seattle to Alaska. To book both cruises, you simply have to get off the ship in Vancouver after the first cruise, make your own way to Seattle, and get back on the same ship. You just can't book the one night cruise.

 

I know that HAL and Princess often allow early disembarkation in Vancouver or Victoria, if those are the last two ports before Seattle, since the ship clears US CBP in Canada, and the line does not face the usual hassle of a new manifest caused by early disembarkation and how CBP handles this. If Vancouver or Victoria are the last ports of call, OP could ask Carnival if they could get early disembarkation in Canada.

 

I took a quick look at the schedule, the cruise does Hawaii to Vancouver, then Vancouver to Seattle (no Victoria stop). So would have to change ship to combine..

[troublemaker256]

The problem lies in the fact the one cruise ends in Vancouver and the ship deadheads to Seattle (if memory serves). No passengers can make the deadhead move.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chengkp75]

The problem lies in the fact the one cruise ends in Vancouver and the ship deadheads to Seattle (if memory serves). No passengers can make the deadhead move.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No, these Carnival cruises are from Hawaii to Vancouver, and from Vancouver to Alaska to Seattle. If they did what you said, it would be legal, since that would be a break in the voyage.

Edited May 2, 2016 by chengkp75

[cruiser12]

I too will be looking to do the same - I was just about to check to see if there was another ship - Holland America ? I really want to be able to do both states - while in the area -

[cruiser12]

Is any one paying attention at Carnival - I am still waiting to here -

[Shmoo here]

[quote name='troublemaker256']The problem lies in the fact the one cruise ends in Vancouver and the ship deadheads to Seattle (if memory serves). No passengers can make the deadhead move.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I think that the one night cruises can have passengers. It just can't be added to the Hawaii/Vancouver cruise prior.

Don't know if Carnival opts not to book passengers for that one night trip, but I know Princess does.

[thinfool]

[quote name='cruiser12']Is any one paying attention at Carnival - I am still waiting to here -[/QUOTE]

Are you waiting for Carnival to reply here on CC?

It happens, but very, very rarely, and then only to tell you to email your question/issue/problem to a particular email address at Carnival.

As it is, you have your answer. You cannot sail Hawaii>Vancouver>Alaska ports>Seattle without changing ships or having a valid break between sailings when you arrive at Vancouver. Edited May 2, 2016 by thinfool

[Hobbsey]

[quote name='maisweh']are you kidding? so instead of our local mariners making money and putting money into our economy, you want our vessels to be foreign flagged with migrants working for pennies on the dollar, putting all of our local mariners out of work, foreclosing on houses, putting many people below the poverty line? :confused:
and you want this repealed all because you want to do a B2B cruise?[/QUOTE]

Yes, of course I am kidding.

[cruiser12]

Had to cancel -

[Shmoo here]

[quote name='cruiser12']Had to cancel -[/QUOTE]

Both cruises?

[Bookbug53]

[quote name='maisweh']are you kidding? so instead of our local mariners making money and putting money into our economy, [B]you want our vessels to be foreign flagged[/B] with migrants working for pennies on the dollar, putting all of our local mariners out of work, foreclosing on houses, putting many people below the poverty line? :confused:
and you want this repealed all because you want to do a B2B cruise?[/quote]

Ships built outside the US cannot be flagged in the US. That is why they are flagged in other countries. Has nothing to do with either of these acts.

[RDC1]

[quote name='Bookbug53']The first cruise is Hawaii to Vancouver. Stop. Cruise over. Get off. new cruise starts. Vancouver to Seattle. Cruise done. This is why it is allowed. Or:


[FONT=Calibri]With those definitions in mind, here's what's allowed:

* A cruise which starts and ends in the same US port, visits a nearby or distant foreign port, and where no permanent disembarkation is permitted during the cruise at any US port (because there has been no transportation BETWEEN US ports (Huh?)
[B]* A cruise between different US ports where no permanent disembarkation is permitted along the way, but at least one port is a [U]nearby foreign port[/U][/B][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Nope does not work that way. If you are on the same ship it is a violation of PVSA. If you got off and got on a different ship then it would be allowed, but not on the same ship. PVSA does not care how the trips are booked or the cruises are structured. Only you got on ship A at one US port and got off Ship A in another US port.

Otherwise a cruise line could easily get around the law by selling cruises to nearby foreign ports and then out of that port enroute to another US city. Exactly what the law is intended to prevent. Edited May 2, 2016 by RDC1

[chengkp75]

[quote name='Bookbug53']Ships built outside the US cannot be flagged in the US. That is why they are flagged in other countries. Has nothing to do with either of these acts.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, you are incorrect. I have personally worked on several ships that were built overseas and flagged US. However, the Jones Act and the PVSA restrict "coastwise" traffic (such as the transport of a passenger from one US port to another) to US built AND US flagged ships.

I have even seen a small Baltic trading vessel, that carried about 6 shipping containers, and could never have crossed the ocean, that was built in Germany and was flagged US for the express purpose of carrying US government cargo between Germany and Scandinavia.

To give a cruise industry example, both the Norwegian Sky (Pride of Aloha) and the Norwegian Jade (Pride of Hawaii) were both US flag and Bahamian flag during their careers, and both were built in Europe. These ships received a special exemption to the PVSA to be able to do the Hawaiian itineraries, since they were not built in the US.

And what the other poster was saying is that if you repeal the Jones Act, then every tugboat, barge, harbor tug, and even fire and police boats in the US could flag out to foreign flag. For the PVSA, this would allow all ferries, commuter boats, dinner and casino boats, and even charter fishing boats to flag out to foreign flag.

The foreign flag ships could then allow foreign crew, pay foreign wage scales, and not meet USCG regulations for safety and environmental protection. How many more accidents do you think would happen if all these small vessels in the US were allowed to be foreign flag? Edited May 2, 2016 by chengkp75

[sanmarcosman]

One Mainer schooling another Mainer on Cruise Critic :) what a great site! Edited May 2, 2016 by sanmarcosman