Are gratuities getting excessive or am I mean?

[resistk]

Please see post #110.

 

If the crew are members of a union then it is the union's problem, not mine to make sure they get a fair wage.

[BlueRiband]

If the crew are members of a union then it is the union's problem, not mine to make sure they get a fair wage.

 

Yes, but the concept of a "fair wage" is something that many advocate in the abstract but don't actually want to pay for it. Which is why NCL's Project America was a flop and why Great Lakes ferries are so expensive - fair wage USA crews.

[Solent Richard]

it may have been one of the reasons, it probably wasn't the only one. The itf certainly doesn't think so.

 

itf ?

Edited August 18, 2016 by Solent Richard

[Host Hattie]

itf ?

 

See posts 104 & 110

[resistk]

Yes, but the concept of a "fair wage" is something that many advocate in the abstract but don't actually want to pay for it. Which is why NCL's Project America was a flop and why Great Lakes ferries are so expensive - fair wage USA crews.

 

Correct. The consumer is essentially subsidizing some of the cruise line shareholders' profits since these so called tips are really not tips for good service if applied across the board regardless of services provided and whether you liked the cruise or not. Therefore the current system which preys on the customary good will of the consumer is sustainable as long as not too many "Aussies" are freeriders on the system. Personally, I am for the current system which gives the consumer with enough nerve to remove the auto tip a fighting chance; the other alternative is a surcharge on everyone since the cruise line will never raise wages to compensate for loss of tips.

[Ergates The Ant]

Am I missing something?

If a cruise line includes the gratuities in the upfront cost, then although it will make the cruise look more expensive, it isn't going to cost any more than the current pricing plus auto tips. Do the cruise lines think we are so stupid that we can't work out the total cost?

 

As far as being concerned that I may not get good service if I have paid tips in advance or used the auto tip process, I do not expect to pay good money for a holiday where I take responsibility for ensuring that the service staff have sufficient incentive to do their jobs. This should be the cruise line's responsibility, and part of the contract with the customer. I should not feel that I have to 'bribe' the staff employed by the cruise line to look after me.

 

I think the whole system of using tipping as part of wages is immoral. It exploits the lowest paid and provides a loophole for employers to avoid paying a guaranteed income with all the subsequent uncertainty for the workers.

I leave auto tips on for cruises, because that is how the system works. However, in the UK, I am happy to pay what seem to be higher prices in restaurants, hotels etc because it means that employees have an agreed income and that their employers not only contribute to pensions, healthcare etc, but also ensure that correct income tax is paid, benefitting the whole community.

 

Sorry for the rant, and for the length of it. I am very heartened to read that some lines cruising out of Australia have seen sense, and that some cruise lines include gratuities in the drinks prices on cruises out of UK ports. How sensible!

[insanemagnet]

Am I missing something?

If a cruise line includes the gratuities in the upfront cost, then although it will make the cruise look more expensive, it isn't going to cost any more than the current pricing plus auto tips. Do the cruise lines think we are so stupid that we can't work out the total cost?

 

Yes, because most consumers are.

 

Do you think £199 is cheaper than £200, or 99p is cheaper than £1? Even if you don't, many people clearly do, otherwise the retailers wouldn't do it.

 

Do you think it is cheaper to buy one bag of salad for £2 or two for £3 (and then throw one away as it has gone off)? Even if you don't, many people clearly do, otherwise the retailers wouldn't do it.

 

The cruise lines will have done detailed research into whether someone would buy a £1200 cruise tips included or a £1000 cruise with the tips mentioned somewhere in the bowels of the website.

 

Australia is a red herring as they had no choice. If you sell £1000 tips excluded cruises and the majority of passengers opt out, you lose money. You don't have to worry about the competition not following your lead, since if they don't they will go bust.

 

It is the UK and the US where they can rely on passenger guilt not removing the tips.

[Yoshikitty]

As long as individuals remove their tips in the remaining system - they are not "fighting" for something better.

 

They cut the well deserved income from many hard-working people onboard and are partly subsidized by those who keep the servicecharge active.

 

We don't like extra payments as well and the way it's one by the cruiselines but we won't let the weakest and the poorest suffer for that with their wallets.

 

All the "we remove the charge to fight the system" talk is just to get a clean concience for doing bad to the crew.

 

Demanding that the lines will add the charge to their prices is naive. The line which would start that at first on a larger scale will be pushed out of the market by the competition that doesn't.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Yoshikitty

[Solent Richard]

As long as individuals remove their tips in the remaining system - they are not "fighting" for something better.

 

They cut the well deserved income from many hard-working people onboard and are partly subsidized by those who keep the servicecharge active.

 

We don't like extra payments as well and the way it's one by the cruiselines but we won't let the weakest and the poorest suffer for that with their wallets.

 

All the "we remove the charge to fight the system" talk is just to get a clean concience for doing bad to the crew.

 

Demanding that the lines will add the charge to their prices is naive. The line which would start that at first on a larger scale will be pushed out of the market by the competition that doesn't.

 

Good afternoon Yoshi.

 

May I congratulate you on one of the best lines I have seen on a myriad of gratuity discussions.

 

I hope you don't mind but I have copied and pasted it and will be more than happy to be accused of plagiarising in future posts.

 

Have a nice day, you certainly brightened mine.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Solent Richard

[Solent Richard]

See posts 104 & 110

 

Thank you.

 

I followed the link to a random Cunard ship and got this...

 

Vessel name: QUEEN MARY 2

IMO no: 9241061

Flag: Bermuda

Agreement: Contact ITF for details

 

So none the wiser really.

[Yoshikitty]

Good afternoon Yoshi.

 

May I congratulate you on one of the best lines I have seen on a myriad of gratuity discussions.

 

I hope you don't mind but I have copied and pasted it and will be more than happy to be accused of plagiarising in future posts.

 

Have a nice day, you certainly brightened mine.

 

Thank you and you're welcome to use it whenever you feel it to be appropriate!

 

Cheers!

Edited August 18, 2016 by Yoshikitty

[Normandie_Nostalgic]

As long as individuals remove their tips in the remaining system - they are not "fighting" for something better.

 

They cut the well deserved income from many hard-working people onboard and are partly subsidized by those who keep the servicecharge active.

 

No, they don't. Cunard is forced to make good any shortfall, since the 'tip' pool is the overwhelming funder of the crew's wages. If they don't pay their people, they will have a mutiny, or more realistically they will not find staff to crew their ships.

 

All it will do is it will dent Carnival's profits, and in the longer run it will force them to get rid of the pesky tip system. Hard-Working staff will get paid all the same, whether tips are left in or voted out.

[Normandie_Nostalgic]

All the "we remove the charge to fight the system" talk is just to get a clean concience for doing bad to the crew.

 

No we don't. That persistent feeling of guilt is all that holds that appalling system together. Opting out from the auto-tipping does not harm the crew a bit. It harms Cunard, that still has to pay the crew, but might not recoup the cost with the tipping pool.

 

What reputable employer (and Cunard is one, let's do them that justice) would let the wages of their staff fluctuate according to the proportion of stingy hardliners and 'Aussies' in the passenger list ? If indeed tips make up a massive part of the wages of the staff, and nobody denies it does, then Cunard has to somehow guarantee the staff that they will get paid, whether the pool is sufficient or not.

 

The tipping revolt is harmless to the deserving staff (and to the not-so-deserving ones too, since they will all get paid the same in the end).

[pinkpanther52]

Am I missing something?

If a cruise line includes the gratuities in the upfront cost, then although it will make the cruise look more expensive, it isn't going to cost any more than the current pricing plus auto tips. Do the cruise lines think we are so stupid that we can't work out the total cost?

 

As far as being concerned that I may not get good service if I have paid tips in advance or used the auto tip process, I do not expect to pay good money for a holiday where I take responsibility for ensuring that the service staff have sufficient incentive to do their jobs. This should be the cruise line's responsibility, and part of the contract with the customer. I should not feel that I have to 'bribe' the staff employed by the cruise line to look after me.

 

I think the whole system of using tipping as part of wages is immoral. It exploits the lowest paid and provides a loophole for employers to avoid paying a guaranteed income with all the subsequent uncertainty for the workers.

I leave auto tips on for cruises, because that is how the system works. However, in the UK, I am happy to pay what seem to be higher prices in restaurants, hotels etc because it means that employees have an agreed income and that their employers not only contribute to pensions, healthcare etc, but also ensure that correct income tax is paid, benefitting the whole community.

 

Sorry for the rant, and for the length of it. I am very heartened to read that some lines cruising out of Australia have seen sense, and that some cruise lines include gratuities in the drinks prices on cruises out of UK ports. How sensible!

 

100% Agree with you 😀😀

[BlueRiband]

No we don't. That persistent feeling of guilt is all that holds that appalling system together. Opting out from the auto-tipping does not harm the crew a bit. It harms Cunard, that still has to pay the crew, but might not recoup the cost with the tipping pool.

 

What reputable employer (and Cunard is one, let's do them that justice) would let the wages of their staff fluctuate according to the proportion of stingy hardliners and 'Aussies' in the passenger list ? If indeed tips make up a massive part of the wages of the staff, and nobody denies it does, then Cunard has to somehow guarantee the staff that they will get paid, whether the pool is sufficient or not.

 

The tipping revolt is harmless to the deserving staff (and to the not-so-deserving ones too, since they will all get paid the same in the end).

 

I have to strongly disagree with those statements. The history of tipping is already documented with the links in post #3 so I won't repeat them here. Unless and until the system is replaced, it is what it is and we all know that when we book on Cunard. To remove gratuities greatly harms the staff by decreasing the income of the crew member. And that is treating the crew badly.

[Merry Maid]

I have to strongly disagree with those statements. The history of tipping is already documented with the links in post #3 so I won't repeat them here. Unless and until the system is replaced, it is what it is and we all know that when we book on Cunard. To remove gratuities greatly harms the staff by decreasing the income of the crew member. And that is treating the crew badly.

 

Can we assume then that a steward/MDR waiters whose pax/table remove the auto tips will receive less salary at the end of the month than their ℅-worker whose guests/table leave then on?

Just askin'

MM

[Merry Maid]

In view of the constant controversy about this subject of which the companies cannot be unaware, if the tip pool (whatever that consists of) is so central to the :)crew's wages why then do the companies provide the opportunity for it to be removed at the whim of the individual passenger?

Curious no?

MM

[BlueRiband]

See post #3, and the two links there, for answers to both questions.

[bananavan]

I have to strongly disagree with those statements. The history of tipping is already documented with the links in post #3 so I won't repeat them here. Unless and until the system is replaced, it is what it is and we all know that when we book on Cunard. To remove gratuities greatly harms the staff by decreasing the income of the crew member. And that is treating the crew badly. (Quote Blue Riband)

 

 

 

I always say that when someone says: "It is not about the money, it is the principle of the thing", it is always about the money.

The luxury lines factor the tipping into their fares. Their fares are more than those of Cunard. Cunard adds gratuities. Cunard's base fare is less expensive. We are on Cunard. It is about the money.

As Blue Riband states, until the system is replaced you are treating the crew badly by removing gratuities.

I have my gratuities included on my World Cruise. (Trust me, I am paying for that. They really are not free) Would it be acceptable for me to remove that charge if it is included?

There are port charges added to your base price. If you do not get off the ship because you do not like the politics/history of one of the countries you are visiting should you demand a refund for that port charges?

It is about the money.

Edited August 19, 2016 by bananavan

[resistk]

In view of the constant controversy about this subject of which the companies cannot be unaware, if the tip pool (whatever that consists of) is so central to the :)crew's wages why then do the companies provide the opportunity for it to be removed at the whim of the individual passenger?

Curious no?

MM

 

LOL, because it is a tip by definition and therefore optional. A certain number of people will always take off the auto tip for varying reasons. If the tip was not optional it would be a mandatory service charge not a tip.

 

Maybe someone familiar with International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS) can explain how tips, service charges, and wages are treated differently.

[resistk]

Can we assume then that a steward/MDR waiters whose pax/table remove the auto tips will receive less salary at the end of the month than their ℅-worker whose guests/table leave then on?

Just askin'

MM

 

I doubt it, I think the take for the entire voyage is averaged out just like on a pirate ship to use a bad analogy. Also it would be impossible to calculate who served who except for the steward since a passenger could eat in the buffet all the time or at the Veranda.

[BlueRiband]

A number of passengers myself included who started cruising before auto tips like to tip crew members individually - waiters, stewards, concierge etc. Since the tip is optional by definition and Cunard chooses not disclose how it actually distributes the auto tip, I am well within cruising decorum if I choose to remove the auto tip. But if someone doesn't want to tip, that is their issue and none of my business. Conversely, if someone wants to tip the crew excessively, that is none of my business either. When I order a drink and a 15% service charge is added so be it, it is not optional whereas a tip is. If there is any stiffing going, it would be the cruise line not remunerating crew properly however I do not believe that is true because crew would not sign on if wages were too low.

 

Then how to you tip all the behind the scenes people? The Afternoon Tea waiter who greeted you each day but was assigned elsewhere on the last day? The deck steward if it's miserable outside and he's assigned to do other things? The Chef's Galley grill man if he's rotated to the main galley?

 

From time to time we read laments on how QM2 is not like QE2 - those good old days when tipping amounted to about $24 per day not adjusted for inflation. If every passenger tipped crew members individually then auto tips would not have been necessary. But they were introduced because about 30% of passengers would "forget" to tip.

 

Bar servers don't keep the entire 15%. If they did, everybody would sign on for bar service. They are not in the general gratuity pool so the service charge goes into a pool for those who stock and serve the adult beverages.

 

The crew signs on because they need the money and understand that tips are a huge portion of their earnings. That's why Cunard has to subsidize the pool on itineraries notorious for massive removal of gratuities. If you refuse to autotip because Cunard won't detail exactly how it is distributed, then you would find another reason even if the precise formula was printed in black and white.

[Solent Richard]

No we don't. That persistent feeling of guilt is all that holds that appalling system together. Opting out from the auto-tipping does not harm the crew a bit. It harms Cunard, that still has to pay the crew, but might not recoup the cost with the tipping pool.

 

What reputable employer (and Cunard is one, let's do them that justice) would let the wages of their staff fluctuate according to the proportion of stingy hardliners and 'Aussies' in the passenger list ? If indeed tips make up a massive part of the wages of the staff, and nobody denies it does, then Cunard has to somehow guarantee the staff that they will get paid, whether the pool is sufficient or not.

 

The tipping revolt is harmless to the deserving staff (and to the not-so-deserving ones too, since they will all get paid the same in the end).

 

Welcome on board Normandie Nostalgic.

 

In view of your two statements I would be more than interested to know which cruise lines you do cruise with.

 

The reason I ask is that in the event you do cruise with a line that includes gratuities - at an extra cost - how do you square that circle: paying your gratuities up-front.

 

Of course, if you don't utilise those particular cruise lines then one can only assume that we are back to square one and it's all down to the 'pounds, shilling and pence' finger.

 

PS. I tend to cruise with both inclusive and excluding 'gratuity' lines. I would also consider myself a 'nostalgic' cruiser who accepts that 'gratuities' are a tradition at sea: a bit like what one would have expected on great liners like the Normandie.

[Yoshikitty]

We know for sure that sommeliers help out at the buffets without getting paid for that just in order to keep the "privilege" of having the chance to sell wine to Cunard passengers (parts of the 15% charge on wine in the MDR).

 

Keeping that in mind, I'd not be 100% certain that Cunard compensates the crew on trips where autocharges are removed on a larger scale.

 

Most staff have 8 months contracts so working on those "low-tips" trips may be the price which they are paying in order to have the chance to participate with the pool on better destinations.

 

And let's do some maths:

 

Let's say we have 2600 passengers on QM2 and around 1000 personel which highly depend on tips from the Auto-tip.

 

2600 passengers pay ~12,50/day ($11,50 - $ 13,50) = 975.000 / month

That means that US$ 975,--/month/individual staff is paid plus maybe US$ 50 - 100 fixed salary/month.

 

That would mean that average staff makes around US$ 1.050 in 8 months = US$ 8.400,--/year when everybody pays the autotip.

 

For sure not overpaid - keeping in mind that they are working 7 days a week and hardly only 8-10 hours/day!

 

Now the autotip-refusers can deduct their "savings" from that amount and say again that they do no harm to the crew :mad:

[balf]

I have to strongly disagree with those statements. The history of tipping is already documented with the links in post #3 so I won't repeat them here. Unless and until the system is replaced, it is what it is and we all know that when we book on Cunard. To remove gratuities greatly harms the staff by decreasing the income of the crew member. And that is treating the crew badly. (Quote Blue Riband)

 

 

 

I always say that when someone says: "It is not about the money, it is the principle of the thing", it is always about the money.

The luxury lines factor the tipping into their fares. Their fares are more than those of Cunard. Cunard adds gratuities. Cunard's base fare is less expensive. We are on Cunard. It is about the money.

As Blue Riband states, until the system is replaced you are treating the crew badly by removing gratuities.

I have my gratuities included on my World Cruise. (Trust me, I am paying for that. They really are not free) Would it be acceptable for me to remove that charge if it is included?

There are port charges added to your base price. If you do not get off the ship because you do not like the politics/history of one of the countries you are visiting should you demand a refund for that port charges?

It is about the money.

 

You make an interesting point about the tips being included in the fare on the World Cruise. Effectively this works just like most customers would like it to work by including them in the fare for all voyages. Why do it just on the World Cruise?, because of the shock many would have when they saw the total on their account. And no I don't believe you would be permitted to remove them, any more than the refuseniks would be able to if the system was changed.