Are gratuities getting excessive or am I mean?

[BlueRiband]

If the steward is being logical, they should spend minimal time on 1 to 5 and devote all their resource to cabin 6.

On this cruise cabins 1 to 5 have already declared their intention, so there is nothing to be gained by doing anything above the minimum.

 

Cabin 6 on the other hand is an unknown quantity.

 

They may leave nothing, or they might hand over fistful of notes on the last day. If they are not going to leave anything, then nothing the steward does will change that. However if they are going to hand over a cash tip then the quality of service will likely determine how much that tip is.

 

Now obviously cabins 1 to 5 will not be happy and may remove the tips on the next cruise, but that won't have any impact on this steward.

 

Yes, that is one of the legitimate arguments against autotipping: a crew member gets paid whether he or she does a minimal or great job. The problem however is that ships now advertise to a much broader market than when only the wealthy traveled:

 

...In the late 1980's, into the 1990's, as many as 30% of passengers on a mass market ship "forgot" to leave any tips.

As a result, the cruise lines lost most of their best service staff, who could no longer afford to work there.

Service levels plummeted as we tried to replace those veteran service staff with newbies who had little experience, but who were willing to work for the lower earnings.

 

The auto-tip acts to shame or otherwise impede the attempts by these "Cheap Charlies" to stiff the service staff in order to afford the cruise.

Most of the major mass market lines now have auto-tipping. On a typical cruise, the number of passengers who go through the trouble to remove the auto tips is under 5%.

The tipped service staff are now making more money than they have seen in the past few decades (but not nearly as much as they earned in the 1960's and 1970's when only the wealthy were cruising).

 

When somebody starts moaning about auto-tipping being the source of lower service levels on ships today, they just do not see the big picture.

 

Lack of tipping by the lower class passengers caused us to lose our best staff, resulting in lower service levels.

Auto-tipping is an attempt by the cruise lines to solve that problem by making these difficult jobs more financially attractive.

[Salacia]

That is another workplace accident. The steward was in no way putting himself on the line when the object fell on his head, any more than if a similar thing had happened ashore.

 

Your incredible New York firemen, they put their lives on the line on 9/11 and undoubtedly do on many other occasions daily. It's wrong to equate one with the other.

 

IMO anyway.

 

Regards David.

 

David, I'm sure you've been on board when safety drills are conducted. During those drills, I've seen stewards mimic checking each cabin for occupants, staff from different departments (one time I saw a hairdresser from the salon) at various points along thought out the ship, including the stairwell. Several times, I've watched as the crew practices using the lifeboats, etc. These people are trained to assist passengers in an emergency. They are instructed in their duties and told to continue until given different orders. They are expected to provide safety and protection for passengers rather than flee in an effort to save themselves. Even at the best of times, a life at sea is not easy; the sea holds power over ships and crew that sometimes find themselves at it's mercy. Those are the reasons why I believe it is fair to say the crew puts their lives on the line. I understand that you do not agree, and I'm sure you're not alone. I sincerely hope there is never an emergency on board that changes your mind ;)

 

No doubt every form of employment presents it's own individual risks and benefits making it impossible to equate different jobs like firefighter and seafearer. Sorry if you thought I was equating the two - I wasn't, although I do appreciate a certain similarity. :)

 

Salacia

Edited August 9, 2016 by Salacia

[alc13]

I'm curious about this. It is often said that tips act as incentives and ensure better service. Does anyone have any evidence to back up this view?

 

Total compensation certainly leads to better service, if only through competition for better paying jobs. Tipping, I simply don't know. I would love to see some data showing a connection between tipping and service quality.

 

I remember a news article about waitress behavior and tips. The writer reported on one waitress who was standoffish to the point of surliness but raked in massive tips - more than another waitress who was attentive and polite. I don't remember the explanation for it.

[Chunky2219]

I saw the following comments and it made my eyes fizz so badly I'm sure it's a wind up. But just in case:

 

...The auto-tip acts to shame or otherwise impede the attempts by these "Cheap Charlies" to stiff the service staff in order to afford the cruise..

 

Presumably, in order to "afford the cruise" the cheap Charlies will just switch off the auto tips anyway? Otherwise, the price is the same. What am I missing here?

 

.........When somebody starts moaning about auto-tipping being the source of lower service levels on ships today, they just do not see the big picture.

 

I would respectfully suggest that failure to see the bigger picture is afflicting those who wish to prolong this old-fashioned and barbaric system rather than just rolling it all into the price and paying people properly.

 

 

.........Lack of tipping by the lower class passengers caused us to lose our best staff, resulting in lower service levels. .

 

I really don't know where to start with this one. But here goes. As a QG regular, I'm quite accustomed to discretely handing over a few extra tips in the restaurant on the final evening (including, by the way, handing the M. d' an envelope to pass into the kitchen). I'm also not unaccustomed to having someone at a neighbouring table ask me about my logic and motivation, because "we're" paying enough already. A little more discussion has revealed one of your cheap Charlies on more than one occasion. So-called "class" (in sailing terms) is no barrier to being a cheap skate.

 

......... Auto-tipping is an attempt by the cruise lines to solve that problem by making these difficult jobs more financially attractive.

No, it's simply a very successful strategy to make the headline price more attractive to the punters then pile extra charges on top rather than charge transparently and pay properly. It's also a terrific control tool over the staff, one that a 19th century industrial baron would be proud of.

 

 

.

[BlueRiband]

Refer to the other links in post #3, where BruceMuzz outlines the background of tipping on ships.

 

While not everybody here agrees with him, I'll take it that he has more experience than I do since he has been managing ships for over 30 years. I value the insider perspective that he brings to the boards.

 

As for "class", I take that to be attitude and behavior rather than economic status. We all know poor people with class as well as wealthy jerks. I would classify a "cheap Charlie" or "tight Wallis" as those who well know the role of gratuities in crew pay but still remove them (and don't give cash) with the rational that they are already paying enough or need to scrimp.

 

For all sorts of union, accounting, tax, and marketing reasons the system isn't likely to change anytime soon.

[Salacia]

Cruise Critic published a interview with a former Carnival crew member turned author.

 

Here's a partial quote regarding tipping...

 

"...CC: Can you talk a little about what a crewmember earns and how tips play into it?

BDB: Tipping is serious stuff. It represents well over 95% of what the crew makes. Carnival gave me something around $60 a month or so when it was all said and done. "Salary" also included the cabin you share, plenty of food and two crew parties a month. There was also an unfulfilled promise of medical care, but I knew several waiters who either got sick or had some sort of chronic condition who were immediately sent home indefinitely without pay. A few women who became pregnant while working onboard were immediately sent home without pay, as well. I don't remember the exact amount, but it was less than $80 for sure.

 

Tips were everything. Auto-tips were a Godsend, because anyone who thinks he/she tips enough voluntarily is usually wrong. The auto-tips were figured by how many guests are assigned to your dinner section. If you had a small section, say only 18, you were constrained by that number. The biggest sections were 22 or 24, which are a whopper of a section. But there is a lot more money to be had for that extra strain during dinner. Thus, even if the guests don't go to dinner, you get those auto-tips. They are automatically split between you and your assistant waiter for the cruise. Since you work breakfast, lunch, midnight buffet, and room service without any specific pay, those tips are well earned even if the guest opts out of the dining room constantly (by going to the supper club, for example, or eating in port).

 

I am not aware of Carnival ever taking a slice of this particular pie. And the timeclocks the waiters use nowadays? You don't get paid by the hour, they are just there to prove that they are not slaves..."

quoted from http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=1059

[Chunky2219]

Salacia,

 

Are you saying that this is the way it is? Because as far as I can tell, no-one is disputing the fact.

 

Or are you saying this is the way it should be and should remain? If so, does that, in your opinion, reflect the best way to manage and reward people in a modern 21st century society and indeed, is it the best way to make sure that all passengers pay appropriately for what they receive and get fair value in return?

 

 

.

[Merry Maid]

If the steward is being logical, they should spend minimal time on 1 to 5 and devote all their resource to cabin 6.

 

On this cruise cabins 1 to 5 have already declared their intention, so there is nothing to be gained by doing anything above the minimum.

 

Cabin 6 on the other hand is an unknown quantity.

 

They may leave nothing, or they might hand over fistful of notes on the last day. If they are not going to leave anything, then nothing the steward does will change that. However if they are going to hand over a cash tip then the quality of service will likely determine how much that tip is.

 

Now obviously cabins 1 to 5 will not be happy and may remove the tips on the next cruise, but that won't have any impact on this steward.

 

This is an interesting post to me for this reason. I don't really know what EXTRA service a cabin steward can provide to distinguish cabins 1-5 from cabin 6. Does he/she give a few more strokes of the vacuum, or polish the sink a little longer? My cabin has always been cleaned efficiently and everything in it's place but this is what the steward is supposed to do.

I've always dropped a few extra dollars into his/her palm on the final night but I'm hanged if I know why I do this. He/She does not know I will do that, so is my cabin cleaner than anybody else's? Who knows? I've never asked for anything extra indeed I don't know what extras I would ask for. Maybe some pax are more demanding than I. He/she cleans the cabin that's it.

 

I'm not too interested in finding out about their family or any personal stuff any more than I am the chambermaid at a hotel. I don't want them to be my new BFF. But I always automatically dish out money on the last night to the waiters, bus boys, cabin staff. Why? God knows. Do I want them to think well of me? I may never see them again. So why would I care?

 

I've never really thought about it before, it's an interesting phenomenon, particularly from a Brit as we are supposed to have such hangups about tipping. I just count the hotel charge as the cost of the trip and never think about it much. The only ones left out of this last night distribution are the bar staff as I consider the 15% per drink ample reward. On my last trip it worked out at rather more than the $11.50pd hotel charge, but I enjoyed every moment and ultimately that's what counts.

 

MM

[Salacia]

Salacia,

 

Are you saying that this is the way it is? Because as far as I can tell, no-one is disputing the fact.

 

Or are you saying this is the way it should be and should remain? If so, does that, in your opinion, reflect the best way to manage and reward people in a modern 21st century society and indeed, is it the best way to make sure that all passengers pay appropriately for what they receive and get fair value in return?

 

 

.

 

Hi Chunky. On this much discussed topic, I have been on the record as saying that the current tipping system is lacking on so many levels and is in need of reform.

 

HOWEVER, until reforms are made, there is a system in place which - although being less than desirable - I choose to comply by leaving the H&D charge in place while showing my appreciation for exceptional service by giving a cash gratuity in addition to my personal thanks.

 

Questioning the system is a good thing, in my opinion. It might help prompt a more equitable method of remuneration for the crew. I just hope the crew does not suffer an economic loss as a result of passenger debates on the tipping issue; by that I mean that those passengers who are on the fence as it were about whether or not to tip will unfortunately find justification to remove the H&D Charge.

 

Regards,

Salacia

Edited August 9, 2016 by Salacia

[Salacia]

PARTIAL QUOTE

...

One last observation......assuming the cabin steward knows that cabins 1,2,3,4,5 have agreed to the automatic addition of gratuities but cabin 6 has not...which cabin will get most of his attention?

 

On different cruise lines, crew members have told me that what is most important to them is the survey passengers complete at the end of their cruise. A bad score can result in the crew member losing his or her job. It follows that crew members do their best, regardless of whether or not the H&D Charge was removed.

 

Hopefully, passengers don't complain about service simply as justification for removing the H&D Charge. Remove the charge if you will, but unless you have good cause, please don't manufacture complains about service.

 

Salacia

Edited August 10, 2016 by Salacia

[OzKiwiJJ]

As one example Australia and New Zealand itineraries are notorious for over 90% of passengers removing all gratuities. With numbers that great the crew would otherwise strike or quit. (It also reduces the profitability of a sailing and Cunard looks to position that ship elsewhere in the future.)

 

 

Really? :rolleyes:Are you basing that on facts or just hearsay?

 

I was recently on a Princess repositioning cruise where the onboard costs were in USD, which also meant gratuities weren't included in the fare as they normally are with Princess cruises in our region. I very much doubt that even 10% of the passengers on that cruise would have removed their grats, let alone 90%, however let's do the sums.

 

There were 2500 passengers on that cruise. 90% of them would be 2250 passengers. Let's allow 5 minutes per passenger for them to request the gratuities be removed. That's 11250 minutes or 187.5 hours. It was a 21 day cruise with 10 port days (including embarkation day). That means guest services would have had a steady flow of passengers for at least 15 hours per day on sea days, and a few hours per day on port days, just from passengers wanting to remove their grats. Plus, of course, all the passengers with all the other issues that require a trip to guest services - we had three visits there to have erroneous drinks charges removed. At no time was guest services inundated with that number of passengers. In fact it was no busier than on Aussie-based cruises where the grats are included in the fares.

 

Certainly tipping is not as common in our part of the world as in yours, and certainly some people do not feel comfortable tipping, and unfortunately there are some misguided TAs that actually advise their customers to remove the grats. I'm not saying it doesn't occur however those passengers would be in a minority, and probably the majority of those would be first time cruisers.

 

Interestingly I have seen a surprising number of posts from US cruisers proudly proclaiming that they always have the grats removed. I've rarely seen posts like that from Aus/NZ cruisers.

 

Yes, the Aussie-based cruise lines do include the grats in the fares. I am not sure whether this came in prior to grats being charged daily but it would not surprise me. When the grats were entirely voluntary the crew may very well have missed out because passengers from our region are not accustomed to handing out gratuities and many feel uncomfortable doing so. I suspect the cruise lines based here changed to adapt to the culture of our region.

Edited August 10, 2016 by OzKiwiJJ

[woodyren]

For all sorts of union, accounting, tax, and marketing reasons the system isn't likely to change anytime soon.

 

But the Australian model was implemented so I just don't buy these issues stopping inclusion in the fare.

 

I am still waiting for anyone to provide a reason apart from "when in Rome" or "cause tradition" as to why these costs cant be included in the fare, crew pays adjusted accordingly, so everyone pays their share (gets rid of the stiffers that people complain about so often).

 

 

Where is the downside?

Edited August 10, 2016 by woodyren

[GUT2407]

But the Australian model was implemented so I just don't buy these issues stopping inclusion in the fare.

 

I am still waiting for anyone to provide a reason apart from "when in Rome" or "cause tradition" as to why these costs cant be included in the fare, crew pays adjusted accordingly, so everyone pays their share (gets rid of the stiffers that people complain about so often).

 

 

Where is the downside?

 

I've asked the same question more times than I can count and keep getting answers that are proven wrong by what goes on here in Aus.

 

They won't get crew, the crew won't be happy, certainly not my experience.

 

The recruitment company will take more of their money, not sure about that but seem to see the same crew on ships here a fair bit so they must be happy with the result, besides which surely the lines can say to the recruiters, "lower your fees or we'll use someone else".

 

If only one line does it they'll look uncompetitive, sure that's why Carnival Corp (who include it in the fare) have about 10 times the presence here as Royal Corp.

 

You will get really poor service. Funny it seems we get at least as good, maybe better service, on say, a Princess ship here than in the USA, WELL that's what Americans I've cruised with have said.

[GUT2407]

 

 

 

Yes, the Aussie-based cruise lines do include the grats in the fares. I am not sure whether this came in prior to grats being charged daily but it would not surprise me. When the grats were entirely voluntary the crew may very well have missed out because passengers from our region are not accustomed to handing out gratuities and many feel uncomfortable doing so. I suspect the cruise lines based here changed to adapt to the culture of our region.

 

I know our first cruise, Princess (2004) grats were added daily, shortly after about 2007 or 8 they were bundled in the fare.

[GUT2407]

I suspect for American based cruises if they were bundled in the fare, many would feel obligated to tip extra anyway.

[OzKiwiJJ]

I suspect for American based cruises if they were bundled in the fare, many would feel obligated to tip extra anyway.

 

Yes, old habits are hard to break.

 

The crew would be very, very happy if that happened. :D

[BlueRiband]

Really? :rolleyes:Are you basing that on facts or just hearsay?...

 

I'm basing it on BruceMuzz's hearsay. He claimed that the first time he was on an Australian itinerary, he was astonished to see how many passengers were removing gratuities despite that good time they said they were having. And they were encouraging other passengers to do the same. With so many removing gratuities, the cruise line has to subsidize the gratuity pool (refer here.) Consequently Australia fares are higher to recover the difference.

[woodyren]

I'm basing it on BruceMuzz's hearsay. He claimed that the first time he was on an Australian itinerary, he was astonished to see how many passengers were removing gratuities despite that good time they said they were having. And they were encouraging other passengers to do the same. With so many removing gratuities, the cruise line has to subsidize the gratuity pool (refer here.) Consequently Australia fares are higher to recover the difference.

 

Another story that backs the logical argument that tips should be bundled into the fare. Otherwise according to what you state those who tip are paying more for their fare to cover for the removers and tipping anyway.

 

Still waiting for a valid argument on why this is not the way to go.

 

By the way our fares are more often than not far cheaper for local cruises in Australia on RCL than they are in the USA or on the USA site (when purchased in AUD with a forex rate conversion) and seeing how the majority of pax are Aussies I don't quite buy you story about crew being so short changed because so many remove their tips. Unless of course they are jacking up the cost for those from other countries only.

Edited August 10, 2016 by woodyren

[Wordzz]

Am I the only one who is perfectly happy with the present system? :)

[bananavan]

Am I the only one who is perfectly happy with the present system? :)

 

Raising my hand and waving in agreement with you.

Why do we have to have the never ending tipping threads?

I think that we are paying too much for our fares considering the cost of fuel has gone down so much. Where is the outrage on that? :D I am NOT being serious.

[Host Hattie]

Am I the only one who is perfectly happy with the present system? :)

 

I'm sure we would all like to pay less but I understand how the system works and I just look at the daily charge as part of the cost of the cruise. Equally the 15% is just part of the cost of the drinks which is still fairly reasonable compared to UK hotel prices.

I've never bothered to work out the total.

[alc13]

Am I the only one who is perfectly happy with the present system? :)

 

Count me in. Obviously, Cunard/Carnival has looked at this every which way and settled on the auto-tip system as least objectionable. So I am happy to pay the full cost of the cruise, no matter how the components are labeled. Would I prefer a slightly higher fare without the auto-tip component? - sure, but in the end it's just words.

 

Editing to add that "just words" is perhaps the problem. Maybe if you called it a "service surcharge" or something less inflammatory than "tip," it wouldn't continue to create so much resentment, even though the purpose would be the same.

 

Just to get it off my chest, I loathe tipping, and I am American. My world would be forever better if every business paid full compensation and gave me a single bill.

Edited August 10, 2016 by alc13

[Olliesmum]

Refer to the other links in post #3, where BruceMuzz outlines the background of tipping on ships.

 

While not everybody here agrees with him, I'll take it that he has more experience than I do since he has been managing ships for over 30 years. I value the insider perspective that he brings to the boards.

 

.

 

How do you know BruceMuzz is who he says he is?

[Underwatr]

If BruceMuzz is a sockpuppet he's an incredibly elaborate one.

 

Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of his posts?

[Olliesmum]

If BruceMuzz is a sockpuppet he's an incredibly elaborate one.

 

Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of his posts?

 

This is a board where nearly everyone uses a pseudonym. There is no way of checking that a person is who they say they are or they are posting accurate/truthful information.