Are gratuities getting excessive or am I mean?

[Chunky2219]

Let's talk about the Aussies. They're not "notorious for removing gratuities", but they are well known for having a differnt attitude to payment, service and tipping. So by the sound of it, cruise lines have adjusted to local preference. Well done them.

 

If you're an Aussie, a tip is unnecessary. If you are Japanese, a tip is an insult that they will turn their noses up at as politely as possible.

 

The only reason we have this continuous run of tipping threads is because Cunard has a significant minority population of US passengers, even on European sailings and the line adopts the path of least resistance. After four pages of threads I can't see anyone who much reckons the auto tips shouldn't be paid but clearly there are two, utterly unreconcilable schools of thought about how people should be charged and how people should be rewarded.

 

TBH, I can't understand why Cunard don't just roll it all into a higher price. The Americans would still go ahead and tip anyway as is their custom, so the crew would be doubly happy and well rewarded for all their dangerous work.

 

 

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Edited August 10, 2016 by Chunky2219
typo

[Salacia]

Let's talk about the Aussies. They're not "notorious for removing gratuities", but they are well known for having a differnt attitude to payment, service and tipping. So by the sound of it, cruise lines have adjusted to local preference. Well done them.

 

If you're an Aussie, a tip is unnecessary. If you are Japanese, a tip is an insult that they will turn their noses up at as politely as possible.

 

The only reason we have this continuous run of tipping threads is because Cunard has a significant minority population of US passengers, even on European sailings and the line adopts the path of least resistance. After four pages of threads I can't see anyone who much reckons the auto tips shouldn't be paid but clearly there are two, utterly unreconcilable schools of thought about how people should be charged and how people should be rewarded.

 

TBH, I can't understand why Cunard don't just roll it all into a higher price. The Americans would still go ahead and tip anyway as is their custom, so the crew would be doubly happy and well rewarded for all their dangerous work.

 

 

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Because of the Americans, huh? Well, that's one theory - here's another:

 

"...In the past cruise lines distributed envelopes towards the end of the cruise that passengers would fill with cash and hand over to their waiter and room steward on the last day.

 

This had the personal touch, but relied on passengers having plenty of cash, so cruise lines introduced a new system where they could ask for the tip to be put on their bill and in return received a voucher to put in the envelope that the crew member could swap for cash.

 

But was still too easy to avoid, and it was thought the British found handing over the envelope embarrassing, so it changed again to automatic gratuities and no envelopes..." - copied from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/cruises/articles/Cruises-guide-to-gratuities-and-tips/

[roscoe39]

Really? :rolleyes:Are you basing that on facts or just hearsay?

 

I was recently on a Princess repositioning cruise where the onboard costs were in USD, which also meant gratuities weren't included in the fare as they normally are with Princess cruises in our region. I very much doubt that even 10% of the passengers on that cruise would have removed their grats, let alone 90%, however let's do the sums.

 

There were 2500 passengers on that cruise. 90% of them would be 2250 passengers. Let's allow 5 minutes per passenger for them to request the gratuities be removed. That's 11250 minutes or 187.5 hours. It was a 21 day cruise with 10 port days (including embarkation day). That means guest services would have had a steady flow of passengers for at least 15 hours per day on sea days, and a few hours per day on port days, just from passengers wanting to remove their grats. Plus, of course, all the passengers with all the other issues that require a trip to guest services - we had three visits there to have erroneous drinks charges removed. At no time was guest services inundated with that number of passengers. In fact it was no busier than on Aussie-based cruises where the grats are included in the fares.

 

Certainly tipping is not as common in our part of the world as in yours, and certainly some people do not feel comfortable tipping, and unfortunately there are some misguided TAs that actually advise their customers to remove the grats. I'm not saying it doesn't occur however those passengers would be in a minority, and probably the majority of those would be first time cruisers.

 

Interestingly I have seen a surprising number of posts from US cruisers proudly proclaiming that they always have the grats removed. I've rarely seen posts like that from Aus/NZ cruisers.

 

Yes, the Aussie-based cruise lines do include the grats in the fares. I am not sure whether this came in prior to grats being charged daily but it would not surprise me. When the grats were entirely voluntary the crew may very well have missed out because passengers from our region are not accustomed to handing out gratuities and many feel uncomfortable doing so. I suspect the cruise lines based here changed to adapt to the culture of our region.

 

Great post. Like button

[Chunky2219]

Because of the Americans, huh? Well, that's one theory - here's another:

 

"...In the past cruise lines distributed envelopes towards the end of the cruise that passengers would fill with cash and hand over to their waiter and room steward on the last day.

 

This had the personal touch, but relied on passengers having plenty of cash, so cruise lines introduced a new system where they could ask for the tip to be put on their bill and in return received a voucher to put in the envelope that the crew member could swap for cash.

 

But was still too easy to avoid, and it was thought the British found handing over the envelope embarrassing, so it changed again to automatic gratuities and no envelopes..." - copied from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/cruises/articles/Cruises-guide-to-gratuities-and-tips/

And once more I ask the question - so why is it like that?

 

Our first ever cruise, maybe 20 years ago was with Carnival in the Caribbean. Tips were included, but with the boarding information we received vouchers to place in envelopes. $x for cabin steward, $y for servers, $z for the maitre d'. On the final night the main man, who we'd never seen in 10 days was front and centre as you entered the restaurant with his hand held out.

 

On what planet is this possibly a good system?

 

 

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[GUT2407]

How do you know BruceMuzz is who he says he is?

 

That will be treated like heresy.

[OzKiwiJJ]

I'm basing it on BruceMuzz's hearsay. He claimed that the first time he was on an Australian itinerary, he was astonished to see how many passengers were removing gratuities despite that good time they said they were having. And they were encouraging other passengers to do the same. With so many removing gratuities, the cruise line has to subsidize the gratuity pool (refer here.) Consequently Australia fares are higher to recover the difference.

 

Certainly there may be more passengers removing gratuities on Aus-based itineraries. It doesn't help that some local TAs and even journalists (one of whom also writes for Cruise Critic Australia) advise newbie cruisers to remove the grats. However BruceMuzz has also stated that less than 5% of passengers remove grats on the average cruise. If that number doubles on a Aus-based itinerary, it's still less than 10% - a long way from the 90% you cited.

[BlueRiband]

Certainly there may be more passengers removing gratuities on Aus-based itineraries. It doesn't help that some local TAs and even journalists (one of whom also writes for Cruise Critic Australia) advise newbie cruisers to remove the grats. However BruceMuzz has also stated that less than 5% of passengers remove grats on the average cruise. If that number doubles on a Aus-based itinerary, it's still less than 10% - a long way from the 90% you cited.

 

I'm having trouble locating his post but yes, it is at 90% on Australia and New Zealand itineraries. (Why would he make up that number?) The reason given, he claims, is always "We don't tip in our country." With numbers so great the cruise line then has to subsidize the gratuity pool or the crew would strike or quit. Since this adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars per sailing it reduces the profitability of that sailing.

 

I agree that the system is badly convoluted and needs to change. Adopting an entirely new pay and compensation system however would require agreement with all of the maritime unions involved. As others have previously pointed out there are tax and accounting issues as well.

[Salacia]

And once more I ask the question - so why is it like that?

 

Our first ever cruise, maybe 20 years ago was with Carnival in the Caribbean. Tips were included, but with the boarding information we received vouchers to place in envelopes. $x for cabin steward, $y for servers, $z for the maitre d'. On the final night the main man, who we'd never seen in 10 days was front and centre as you entered the restaurant with his hand held out.

 

On what planet is this possibly a good system?

 

 

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Neptune. Definitely Neptune.

[EyeLuvCrewSing]

Neptune. Definitely Neptune.

 

I was going to say Pluto (being a Mickey Mouse planet) but remembered that Pluto is no longer a planet :confused:

[Salacia]

I was going to say Pluto (being a Mickey Mouse planet) but remembered that Pluto is no longer a planet :confused:

 

"What Is Pluto?

 

 

Pluto is a dwarf planet. A dwarf planet travels around, or orbits, the sun just like other planets. But it is much smaller.

 

 

Clyde Tombaugh discovered Pluto in 1930. He was an astronomer from the United States. An astronomer is a scientist who studies stars and other objects in space. Venetia Burney named Pluto that same year. She was an 11-year-old girl from England.

 

 

Pluto is not very big. It is only half as wide as the United States. Pluto is smaller than Earth's moon. This dwarf planet takes 248 Earth years to go around the sun. If you lived on Pluto, you would have to wait 248 Earth years to celebrate your first birthday. One day on Pluto is about 6 1/2 days on Earth.

 

 

Pluto is about 40 times farther from the sun than Earth is. Pluto is in an area of space called the Kuiper (KY-per) Belt. Thousands of small, icy objects like Pluto but smaller are in the Kuiper Belt.

 

 

This dwarf planet has five moons. Its largest moon is named Charon (KAIR-ən). Charon is about half the size of Pluto. Pluto's four other moons are named Kerberos, Styx, Nix and Hydra." - COPIED FROM

http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/stories/nasa-knows/what-is-pluto-k4.html

[woodyren]

I'm having trouble locating his post but yes, it is at 90% on Australia and New Zealand itineraries. (Why would he make up that number?) The reason given, he claims, is always "We don't tip in our country." With numbers so great the cruise line then has to subsidize the gratuity pool or the crew would strike or quit. Since this adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars per sailing it reduces the profitability of that sailing.

 

I agree that the system is badly convoluted and needs to change. Adopting an entirely new pay and compensation system however would require agreement with all of the maritime unions involved. As others have previously pointed out there are tax and accounting issues as well.

 

There would be lucky to be 90% of passengers on Aussie cruises from Australia and NZ so ALL of them must be removing tips. I have no idea WHY HE MADE THAT NUMBER UP but after sailing on many local cruises I AM VERY CONFIDENT that he did.

 

As far as the accounting and tax issues go it doesn't seem to be an issue based on what has happened on the Aussie based lines that have no tips so I don't hold much water on it being a valid reason to stick with the status quo.

 

I personally have no problem with paying my dues with the current system but I DO have a problem with a system that allows for other people not do pull their weight. The solution is easy and has been demonstrably proven to work in Australian waters.

 

It's like imperial measurement. Just let it go, the new way is much easier.

Edited August 11, 2016 by woodyren

[OzKiwiJJ]

I'm having trouble locating his post but yes, it is at 90% on Australia and New Zealand itineraries. (Why would he make up that number?)

 

I don't know, however common sense based on my admittedly limited experience so far on cruises in this region that have daily gratuities indicates that 90% just would not be possible. Particularly on shorter cruises.

[Salacia]

If BruceMuzz is a sockpuppet he's an incredibly elaborate one.

 

Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of his posts?

 

Hi Underwatr. Thanks for that link "sockpuppet" - a very interesting internet term.

 

I didn't know anything about the poster BruceMuzz, although I have see that moniker mentioned previously on this forum. Repeated mention made me curious...

 

Here is what BruceMuzz wrote: "I have been managing cruise ships for 37 years; I managed 32 ships for 11 different cruise companies on over 1400 cruises. During that time I also managed 14 dry docks and 7 new builds..."

quoted from http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=50340747#post50340747 post #23

[Solent Richard]

I'm sure we would all like to pay less but I understand how the system works and I just look at the daily charge as part of the cost of the cruise. Equally the 15% is just part of the cost of the drinks which is still fairly reasonable compared to UK hotel prices.

I've never bothered to work out the total.

 

Exactly Hattie, and you won't get that 'Cunard' ambiance in your average UK Hotel.

 

I'm not sure how the moaners would cope in most Middle East hotels where they operate the '+ + +' system: and that's before you get to the bar.

[Wordzz]

It leaves me a little bewildered to see how aeriated some posters get about this, tbh. As if there aren't enough things for us all to be concerned about in this world we live in. Just sayin' :)

[BlueRiband]

There would be lucky to be 90% of passengers on Aussie cruises from Australia and NZ so ALL of them must be removing tips. I have no idea WHY HE MADE THAT NUMBER UP but after sailing on many local cruises I AM VERY CONFIDENT that he did.

 

As far as the accounting and tax issues go it doesn't seem to be an issue based on what has happened on the Aussie based lines that have no tips so I don't hold much water on it being a valid reason to stick with the status quo.

I personally have no problem with paying my dues with the current system but I DO have a problem with a system that allows for other people not do pull their weight. The solution is easy and has been demonstrably proven to work in Australian waters.

 

It's like imperial measurement. Just let it go, the new way is much easier.

 

He's active on the boards right now. We don't have messaging here but you might find an appropriate thread and ask him why he claims 90% if it isn't true.

 

While Australian based lines - as well as luxury lines - roll everything into the fare they're not competing with mass market US/UK based lines. In a recent thread one person complained of $702 in gratuities over 26 days. So if it's instead rolled into the fare it immediately looks $702 more expensive than a competing line.

[Chunky2219]

I was going to say Pluto (being a Mickey Mouse planet) but remembered that Pluto is no longer a planet :confused:

Maybe they operate the same system on the Disney Ships?

:rolleyes:

 

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[Jacqueline]

Nothing new with gratuities, and they haven't sudden become excessive. Where does that assumption come from?

It's none of our business who gets paid and how. The staff signs a contract with the terms and conditions laid out. Most do multiple contracts which says to me that they feel it's a good choice for them.

In what other industry do we sit around parsing incomes and deciding what is acceptable and fair? and who gets what ? It's none of our business, and to me, yes this does look like a way to opt out of tipping the full amount because it is based on some high minded rational that we have devised in our own heads (and may even actually believe). And yes, to answer the question, it's not just cheap, it's not following the guidelines that you knowingly agree to when booking.

If you are philosophically opposed to tipping, then select a line where it is included in the fare.

[woodyren]

If you are philosophically opposed to tipping, then select a line where it is included in the fare.

 

A person can be philosophically opposed to tipping but still comply with the expected norms because they understand how it could reduce staff wages.

 

The two things are not mutually inclusive.

 

That does not preclude someone from advocating change if they think that there is a better system. I happen to believe there is a better system and that the better system will insure everyone pulls an equal share. At the moment some people are shirking on their share and that doesn't sit well.

 

I believe customer service evaluations, decent pay (relatively but not my concern) good leadership, supervision and management are responsible for staff performance not bribes. But hey that's how I have worked and interacted. I also don't enjoy staff overly fussing over me and making small talk to solicit tips.

 

Just be efficient, fair and reliable and I will return with politeness and thanks. If we generally get along well that is a big bonus.

Edited August 16, 2016 by woodyren

[Jacqueline]

How do you advocate change?

This has been the system for decades. I have been on cruise critic for 17 years ( more really as the board migrated from another server). This is a perennial topic. It's not going to change. I can promise you that.

If the tips are rolled into the cruise price, then it is commissionable, which means that the TA gets more, and all things being equal, the staff less.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Jacqueline

[woodyren]

How do you advocate change?

This has been the system for decades.

 

Good question. The again tuxes and suits on formal nights were part of the system for decades were they not.

 

Maybe others will force the change by removing grats. I wouldn't do that but from what I read on here many do.

 

 

 

But it has changed despite what you say on some Australian based cruise lines. They have comparable fares to those that have auto grats, good service from all reports, TA's get commissions and the tips ARE rolled into the fare. They seem to be doing fine.

Edited August 16, 2016 by woodyren

[Host Hattie]

Good question. The again tuxes and suits on formal nights were part of the system for decades were they not.

 

 

This is the Cunard board, tuxes and suits are still part of the system on formal nights !

[Glenndale]

How do you advocate change?

This has been the system for decades. I have been on cruise critic for 17 years ( more really as the board migrated from another server). This is a perennial topic.

It's not going to change. I can promise you that.

If the tips are rolled into the cruise price, then it is commissionable, which means that the TA gets more, and all things being equal, the staff less.

But it has changed, Regent, Azamara and Saga, to name but three, all include tips in their brochure price.

[violetta58]

Exactly how we see it[/quote

 

I am sure Cunard will be delighted that people think it is wrong to complain about gratuities.... it will no doubt encourage Cunard to increase them.....here we come 20 dollars per day!!

One last observation......assuming the cabin steward knows that cabins 1,2,3,4,5 have agreed to the automatic addition of gratuities but cabin 6 has not...which cabin will get most of his attention?

 

I wondered that too, all I can say that in our 20 cruises on Cunard we always paid the gratuities plus tips except one time, a three and a half week Caribbean where there had a problem with our card and didn't think we would have enough money. We cancelled gratuities half way through and there was not any change in how our steward treated us and we did tip well at the end as we normally did.

[BlueRiband]

Changing to an entirely different system of crew compensation - which is what would happen if tips were rolled into the fare - would require negotiation with all of the maritime unions involved. Not that that cannot be done, but it would take years to get agreement with all of the parties involved. Then Cunard is left with the problem of how to appear price competitive on similar itineraries.