Carnival Announces Construction of 180,000 Ton Ships

[longhorn2004]

Its not so much figuring it out, its paying for it. Do you build the ships and hope the infrastructure comes along, or do you build the infrastructure and hope the ships come to you.

 

Good point, I do not see Port Everglades, Port Miami, or let alone the small ports across the Caribbean stepping up to build LNG infrastructure.

 

Carnival has to be hoping that LNG becomes the new fuel standard for ocean going vessels so other shipping companies and Ports will invest in infrastructure.

[Viesczy]

I love a new boat, can't wait to see how these will end up being tricked out!

 

About LNG and such... the world is just being SET UP for the market squeeze. Just wait/watch.

 

Economics of a market squeeze:

Step 1) offer product at ridiculously low price so that entire market converts and don't worry about losses during that time

 

Step 2) once market converts time for G cubed--GOUGE, GOUGE, GOUGE.

 

I'm not the only one who sees this or had these courses as part of my education I hope.

[lele100]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think with 5+ years until these debut on CCL, they would have time to figure the logistics out of using LNG.

 

 

I think it will be 4 years or less, I thought the first one is debuting in 2020 and if it follows the previous debuts it will be around May so that will be 3+ years. Your right though should still be enough time to figure it out.

[chengkp75]

I love a new boat, can't wait to see how these will end up being tricked out!

 

About LNG and such... the world is just being SET UP for the market squeeze. Just wait/watch.

 

Economics of a market squeeze:

Step 1) offer product at ridiculously low price so that entire market converts and don't worry about losses during that time

 

Step 2) once market converts time for G cubed--GOUGE, GOUGE, GOUGE.

 

I'm not the only one who sees this or had these courses as part of my education I hope.

 

While of course price will rise as demand increases, marine fuel, whether LNG, residual fuel oil, or diesel fuel is such a small part of the total world energy picture that supply gluts like the US is currently seeing for LNG won't change much when ships start to use it.

[ducklite]

Hypothetically, they could be below, but that would mean the relatively light gas storage tanks are below the very heavy engines, which is contrary to good naval architecture from a stability standpoint. Yes, they can be above, but that then carves into crew accommodations and back of house areas, which would then push passenger areas upwards. I'm also not sure (haven't studied the class rules for LNG completely) what kind of buffer space is required between the tanks and passenger areas. There are some Scandinavian ferries that use LNG, and they have exterior tanks on deck, but they are outside of passenger areas, and I don't see a cruise ship giving up valuable revenue real estate to put LNG tanks up above.

 

 

Understood. With trucks and buses and various off road equipment, CNG equipment (and propane which is a somewhat related fuel source) aesthetics aren't as important as with a cruise ship. Face it, no one really cares what a combine or garbage truck looks like. :)

[AtlantaCruiser72]

Carnival Corp has developed this new class of 180,000grt ships powered by LNG to be used across multiple brands. Expect the ships to be virtually identical externally other than their funnels, but with different interior decor suited to each brand. Here's the breakdown of where these ships, and other upcoming newbuilds, will be going.

 

New LNG-class 180,000grt

Costa 2019 (Meyer Turku)

Aida 2019 (Meyer Werft)

Carnival 2020 (Meyer Turku)

P&O 2020 (Meyer Weft)

Costa 2021 (Meyer Turku)

Aida 2021 (Meyer Weft)

Carnival 2022 (Meyer Turku)

 

Vista-class 135,000grt

Carnival 2018 (Fincantieri)

Costa-China 2019 (Fincantieri)

P&O Australia 2020 (Fincantieri)

Costa-China 2020 (Fincantieri)

 

Royal-class 143,000grt

Princess 2017 (Fincantieri)

Princess 2019 (Fincantieri)

Princess 2020 (Fincantieri)

 

The thing I find interesting here is the move away from Fincantieri, which traditionally has been the primary shipbuilder for Carnival Corp. Either they cannot produce ships of this size, or lack the technical ability to handle construction of the LNG systems that Meyer Shipbuilders posses.

 

Of the existing Carnival fleet only 4 ships were not built at Fincantieri, and those were the Spirit Class vessels which were built by Kvaerner MASA yards in Finland (Which I think is now Meyer Turku if I'm not mistaken).

 

I will be interested to see how much the physical architecture of the ships vary from the footprint of the Breeze/Vista vessels.

[Karnyval]

 

Of the existing Carnival fleet only 4 ships were not built at Fincantieri, and those were the Spirit Class vessels which were built by Kvaerner MASA yards in Finland (Which I think is now Meyer Turku if I'm not mistaken).

 

 

Elation and Paradise (Fantasy class) were also built in Finland.

[jimbo5544]

Elation and Paradise (Fantasy class) were also built in Finland.

 

I am pretty sure all of the Fantasy class was built in Finland.

[jimbo5544]

Hypothetically, they could be below, but that would mean the relatively light gas storage tanks are below the very heavy engines, which is contrary to good naval architecture from a stability standpoint. Yes, they can be above, but that then carves into crew accommodations and back of house areas, which would then push passenger areas upwards. I'm also not sure (haven't studied the class rules for LNG completely) what kind of buffer space is required between the tanks and passenger areas. There are some Scandinavian ferries that use LNG, and they have exterior tanks on deck, but they are outside of passenger areas, and I don't see a cruise ship giving up valuable revenue real estate to put LNG tanks up above.

 

Is it possible that instead of building large LNG tanks there could be more smaller ones (for distribution purposes) spread throughout the lower floors where they had space?

[chengkp75]

Is it possible that instead of building large LNG tanks there could be more smaller ones (for distribution purposes) spread throughout the lower floors where they had space?

 

Engine rooms don't have a lot of "spare" space as it is. A lot of smaller tanks would not be real efficient, as each tank has to have a void surrounding it of a specific size, regardless of how large or small the tank itself is, so the void for a small tank becomes a much larger percentage of the tank size than one for a large tank. A whole lot of little tanks also requires more piping, valves, controls and monitoring than fewer, larger tanks.

[Karnyval]

 

I am pretty sure all of the Fantasy class was built in Finland.

 

Pretty sure you are right. For some reason, I was thinking azipods.

[Karnyval]

One thing about technology is that it changes. As the demand for LNG ships increase, so will improvements.

 

http://www.lngworldnews.com/khi-develops-new-tank-for-lng-fueled-ships/

 

and there seems to be excitement over new membrane tachnology - whatever the heck that is

 

http://www.gtt.fr/

[AtlantaCruiser72]

 

I am pretty sure all of the Fantasy class was built in Finland.

 

I stand corrected! I was always under the impression they were built at Fincantieri. Guess I need to fact check better :eek: Apologies for any misinformation.

[jimbo5544]

I stand corrected! I was always under the impression they were built at Fincantieri. Guess I need to fact check better :eek: Apologies for any misinformation.

 

 

No worries

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone

[cjknox]

The thing I find interesting here is the move away from Fincantieri, which traditionally has been the primary shipbuilder for Carnival Corp. Either they cannot produce ships of this size, or lack the technical ability to handle construction of the LNG systems that Meyer Shipbuilders posses.

 

I will be interested to see how much the physical architecture of the ships vary from the footprint of the Breeze/Vista vessels.

 

Unlike Fincantieri, Meyer has the vessel platform and the design for the LNG vessels. In addition, I believe Fincantieri's largest yard can only build a vessel up to 170,000 tons (Monfalcone). These LNG vessels are 180,000 grt.

 

From the preliminary information I've received the people at Carnival are excited about this new class as it will allow them to get even more creative with on board layout and entertainment options.

[cjknox]

Now thatI think about it, could the LNG tanks be stored on the upper decks? Looking at the picture below it seems like the giant glass dome is covering what looks like a possible tank storage space.

[Mikew0805]

Huge ships! I'm hoping when the new large ships come into service, they will move an older Spirit class ship permanently to Tampa for 7-8 day cruises. That's my wish....

 

I'd like that too.

[les37b]

I wonder if it will be invited to Messina!

[chengkp75]

Now thatI think about it, could the LNG tanks be stored on the upper decks? Looking at the picture below it seems like the giant glass dome is covering what looks like a possible tank storage space.

 

Not real practical in the volumes that a cruise ship would need to store. You would be taking away the thousands of tons of weight of the fuel oil that was in tanks at the bottom of the ship, and adding thousands of tons of LNG to the top of the ship. LNG still weighs about half of what residual fuel oil does, and has less energy per cubic meter.

[ducklite]

I believe that 3M (I'm rusty and might be wrong in the developer) recently designed and released a new tank made minimum 30% lighter than the previously existing tanks for L/CNG storage. It also needs less frequent inspection for re-cert purposes and if I recall correctly, the valves have a 30% longer lifespan. If they are using these, it might allow them to do some storage in areas other than the bottom of the ship. Just my semi-educated random thought of the day.

[chengkp75]

I believe that 3M (I'm rusty and might be wrong in the developer) recently designed and released a new tank made minimum 30% lighter than the previously existing tanks for L/CNG storage. It also needs less frequent inspection for re-cert purposes and if I recall correctly, the valves have a 30% longer lifespan. If they are using these, it might allow them to do some storage in areas other than the bottom of the ship. Just my semi-educated random thought of the day.

 

Tank weight isn't the big problem, its the weight of the LNG. This ship will use, I estimate, 1100-1500 metric tons of LNG per week, which while less than the equivalent fuel oil (1500-2200 mt), represents 2500-3500 cubic meters, while the fuel tanks represent 1500-2200 cubic meters. All this is rough figuring, but you don't want to remove 2000 tons of weight down low and add the same weight up top. Remember, this is not gaseous, but liquid methane, so it weighs more per volume.

[jimbo5544]

Unlike Fincantieri, Meyer has the vessel platform and the design for the LNG vessels. In addition, I believe Fincantieri's largest yard can only build a vessel up to 170,000 tons (Monfalcone). These LNG vessels are 180,000 grt.

 

From the preliminary information I've received the people at Carnival are excited about this new class as it will allow them to get even more creative with on board layout and entertainment options.

 

While we were on the Vista, we went to the Diamond event, which was a breakfast with some of the senior staff. I got sit next to and had a discussion with the chief engineer, mainly in regards to the new technology on Vista. He also did mention exciting new plans for the third new build and how they were so excited on the different things it would bring to cruising (more from a technology perspective). At that time I had asked him if it was along the lines of the Costa ships and he just smiled, winked and said we will see. It was plain to see the excitement he had about this.

[ducklite]

Tank weight isn't the big problem, its the weight of the LNG. This ship will use, I estimate, 1100-1500 metric tons of LNG per week, which while less than the equivalent fuel oil (1500-2200 mt), represents 2500-3500 cubic meters, while the fuel tanks represent 1500-2200 cubic meters. All this is rough figuring, but you don't want to remove 2000 tons of weight down low and add the same weight up top. Remember, this is not gaseous, but liquid methane, so it weighs more per volume.

 

 

 

I'm wondering if they are considering taking on less and re-fueling at various ports along the way? Just thinking out loud.

[chengkp75]

I'm wondering if they are considering taking on less and re-fueling at various ports along the way? Just thinking out loud.

 

Again, the problem is infrastructure. What ports in the Caribbean have fuel oil bunkering capability (almost none), so which would like to invest in LNG infrastructure? While the ships currently bunker fuel oil every 2-3 weeks, if on LNG, you will see weekly bunkering due to the increased volume needs. So, tankage will remain the same, but they will refuel more often, but most likely only at home port.

 

The price of the LNG would also have to reflect the shipping costs to get it to whatever port you plan on using.

Edited September 9, 2016 by chengkp75

[eroller]

Again, the problem is infrastructure. What ports in the Caribbean have fuel oil bunkering capability (almost none), so which would like to invest in LNG infrastructure? While the ships currently bunker fuel oil every 2-3 weeks, if on LNG, you will see weekly bunkering due to the increased volume needs. So, tankage will remain the same, but they will refuel more often, but most likely only at home port.

 

The price of the LNG would also have to reflect the shipping costs to get it to whatever port you plan on using.

 

 

I'm just curious, do you have any idea how many ports in the US are currently capable of bunkering LNG to large vessels? I've only read of one in LA but I'm not up to speed. I think there are several in the works but I have no idea how far off they are. There still seems to be concerns about regulations with bunkering LNG around safety and environmental issues.

 

 

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