Silversea Water Cooler: Part 3, Welcome!

[Lois R]

I love storms!! Don't get many good ones here. Lake Michigan sucks all the power out of them.

 

 

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Oh.....you love storms? This one finally stopped.........if you love thunderstorms then come to Florida in the summer.

They come almost every day like clockwork in the late afternoons:eek:

[jpalbny]

Hi Bolshoi, welcome to the Cooler. We are a bunch who just hang out and talk about anything so your question is just fine here.

 

I don't know yet what the transport options are between Santiago and Valparaiso, but I will tell you that we are looking at that scenario too. We are on a Silver Explorer itinerary which disembarks in Valparaiso this November, and we're looking for a day tour that will pick us up from the ship, tour the area, and drop us off at an airport hotel that evening for our flight to Easter Island the next day.

 

If anyone here can answer your question I'm sure that they will do so shortly. You may also want to ask your question on the Ports of Call section to see if anyone there knows. There is a thread active with this very question, so post there too. Here is a link to the thread: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2508939

[Bolshoi]

Thanks, JP. I hadn't thought of that...

[UKCruiseJeff]

Bolshoi, welcome to the Cooler!

 

At any given moment half of our members are inebriated and those are the hard core members that make a lot of sense if only they were sober. So don't be shy, membership always open to anyone who is friendly and seeking amicable banter. I can't answer your question, but if you want any guidance on pizza dough, I'm your man! I talk a good meal, but it transpires that almost everyone here does food better! So much talent here. Please come Russian back!

 

M, this Megan is iconic. And all thoughts for Saturday.

 

We're off to Seaside! later today where normal catering is suspended for pragmatism. Bad weather for a few days followed by some balcony time. So Helga willing ......

 

ps I love storms. Am I the only one that even though I'm in the lounge on amcouch, takes my feet off the ground during lightening.

[mysty]

Thanks so much J! Yes, she is iconic! Canadian women have been allowed to serve in the infantry since the 1980s. Apparently they will be allowed to serve in the British infantry by the end of next year. As I have been a feminist since way back when, it is indeed special! And thanks for the thoughts on our birthday! Best wishes for Helga's cooperation! And enjoy Seaside!

Edited June 27, 2017 by mysty

[ShotsnCruises]

Jeff,

The thought never occurred to me during lightening.

 

 

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[Tothesunset]

Mysty....today's news from Buckingham Palace States that Canadian Soldier Capt Megan Coutu became the first female soldier to Captain the Queens Guard for the changing of the guard. She serves in the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry who are currently guarding the Palace to coincide with the 150th anniversary of Canada and the Canadian Federation.....well done her for what must have been a very proud day.

That will surely get up the noses of the old boys' network. All credit to Capt Coutu and the system that, at last, has allowed this.

 

I remember when the RAF started training female aircrew. The opposition was intense with all sorts of spurious reasons given why women shouldn't fly - bad for their girl parts, too small (height is a handicap in fast jets), too emotional blah-di-blah-di-blah. I was at RAF Leeming when the first Tornado female navigator was posted in. You would not believe how much bad feeling there was in the squadron when she arrived. However, as she turned out to be a drop-dead gorgeous blonde who was both competent and unwiling to take any sh!t from anyone she fitted right in from the off.

 

A few years ago an all-female crew of a Tornado (pilot and nav) were each awarded a DFC (that, believe me, is a really big thing) for work on operations.

 

And the last part of my story today concerns Mrs TTS who became the RAF's first ever female adjutant at the Sovereign's parade at Cranwell in 1980. That meant she had to do all the shouting at the head of all the people at the passing-out parade while not tripping over her feet or leading the troops off into the car park. You know her,S, so you'll probably realise that if you want a woman with a loud voice telling loads of others what do to she was a perfect choice.

 

Yet in 1987 she had to leave the RAF because she was pregnant! So there you go, the RAF loses their most respected whizz kid catering officer (Chequers, Royal Banquets etc) because at that time there was no maternity leave or concession to pregnancy. It's all changed now and suitable systems are in place to permit women to have their children and maintain their careers - just right, too. The annoying thing is that both parties lost out - the RAF lost an excellent officer who would certainly have reached Air rank and Mrs TTS lost the opportunity to fulfil her career with the RAF. Lose-lose.

[MissSophia]

Great story TTS......I remember us chatting about our careers and yes Mrs T was so right for that task!!

As women...serving HM in those days could be tough and as you say such a waste for Mrs with her talent and indeed achievements.

 

☺️

[Tothesunset]

Great story TTS......I remember us chatting about our careers and yes Mrs T was so right for that task!!

As women...serving HM in those days could be tough and as you say such a waste for Mrs with her talent and indeed achievements.

 

☺️

Yes, it was tough. Generally speaking I always thought that the women had to prove themselves to a higher standard than the men in those days. I don't think - at least I hope - that doesn't apply today. The highest rank it was possible for a woman to rise to in those days was Air Commodore (one star) although there was no definitive rule dictating this - it was because of the career pathways open to women at the time. Now there really is no ceiling yet I expect it will be a long time until we see a female Air Chief Marshall (4 star) because it will take a generation for these equal opportunities to work their way through. I'm sure the same applies in the RN and Army.

 

I feel quite strongly about this subject because I have seen women (Mrs TTS for example) who were at least the equal of their male contemporaries yet would be subtly held back or treated differently. Furthermore, I have known women who have achieved rank of significant responsibilty being treated with suspicion by their subordinates leading to that old chestnet of having to prove themselves where a man wouldn't. That makes me really cross.

 

I know it's not just in the military that this sort of sexual apartheid has existed (and probably still exists) but it is easier to assess in a heirarchical system.

 

Lastly, the one thing that really drives me mad is the oft-held conviction that Equality of Opportunity means being the same. No it doesn't! Clearly men and women differ from each other in many ways but then again all men are different and all women are different. But try getting across to the neanderthals that Equality of Opportunity merely means that people should be assessed on their ability to perform the task rather than on their sex, colour, creed etc. And when those people find it too hard to get their heads round that really quite simple concept you just know that the term 'PC brigade' will turn up at some point. (Why is it always a brigade, why not a squadron or battalion or fleet?)

[UKCruiseJeff]

Yes, it was tough. Generally speaking I always thought that the women had to prove themselves to a higher standard than the men in those days. I don't think - at least I hope - that doesn't apply today.

 

This is also true in business. Although I found when choosing candidates to join my team when working for the corporation women that "made it" were of considerably higher "standard" than males.

 

When mentoring the only personal suggestion that I felt very strongly about and that I'd make for females was that they did all the could to avoid personal relationships with work colleagues as I felt it nearly always harmed their stature and reputation. It is simply a complication best avoided.

[Tothesunset]

When mentoring the only personal suggestion that I felt very strongly about and that I'd make for females was that they did all the could to avoid personal relationships with work colleagues as I felt it nearly always harmed their stature and reputation.

Would that also apply to the male colleagues with whom they might have those relationships?

[UKCruiseJeff]

Would that also apply to the male colleagues with whom they might have those relationships?

 

Yes, but the reality is that personal relationships (in my experience) if they harmed anyone's reputation and standing at work it was always the females and never the males. I was interested in mentoring talented females and seeing their careers blossom.

[Tothesunset]

Yes, but the reality is that personal relationships (in my experience) if they harmed anyone's reputation and standing at work it was always the females and never the males. I was interested in mentoring talented females and seeing their careers blossom.

That's fair enough.

 

There is still a subtle difference in expectations even where the opportunities are open equally to either sex.

I think in medicine generally the playing field is a lot more level (I know, level is an absolute but you know what I mean!) and my trainees were about 50/50 male/female (no, not hermaphrodites). I was never really aware of treating a trainee differently depending on their sex but I reckon I probably did even though I'd like to think I didn't. I must admit one female was so poor that I tried to get her out of the profession however this was a question of incompetence rather than her being female. The trouble is, the unthinking would say ''See, that woman surgeon is hopeless therefore all women surgeons are hopeless''. That's not a stain that would spread through a male cohort.

[UKCruiseJeff]

That's fair enough.

 

There is still a subtle difference in expectations even where the opportunities are open equally to either sex.

I think in medicine generally the playing field is a lot more level (I know, level is an absolute but you know what I mean!) and my trainees were about 50/50 male/female (no, not hermaphrodites). I was never really aware of treating a trainee differently depending on their sex but I reckon I probably did even though I'd like to think I didn't. I must admit one female was so poor that I tried to get her out of the profession however this was a question of incompetence rather than her being female. The trouble is, the unthinking would say ''See, that woman surgeon is hopeless therefore all women surgeons are hopeless''. That's not a stain that would spread through a male cohort.

 

Whilst managing in "The Corporation" one was expected to manage to a set of establishment set of figures which was a complex collection of seniority, total salaries, number of people and average appraisal ratings. The net effect of that on me was that I was often not in control of some of the "end of career" senior people dumped on me who were always males and inflated my establshment target. This wasn't an issue because I loved identifying under-leveled (ie junior) females who were talented. This meant that because they were relatively junior I could offer them exceptional career growth if they turned out as good as my instinct led me to believe. Very often they joined me quite wounded by battle.

 

I remember one in particular who having spent a few days with my team had rated her highly and wanted her to join us and when I received her personal file it was full of previous managers recording to file how "difficult" she was. I questioned her closely about it and discovered that what was at the route of it (from her perspective) was that her previous managers wished to force her career in a direction that didn't interest her. They simply weren't listenening to her. I showed her, her personal file and it was a pretty upsetting experience for her because the file follows you through your career. I decided to give her the benefit of the doubt, a fresh start and after three months with me I called her to my office, told her I was delighted with her progress and work and told her that we were going to go through her file and shred all the negative notes to file so the line was redrawn. This was quite "illegal" but I always told my boss when I misbehaved and he totally supported what I had done, as he rated her as well. I simply gave her the space to prosper and grow. She had a great career with me and after me. I was lucky in that I was a part of an informal management team who were trying to identify suitable candidates for our "higher management potential" accelerated career stream who were possible senior managers of the future.

 

I also liked to take in three or four a year of Managament degree students on their experience years. The coproration was very aspirational (in those days) for graduates and I use to go for ex-polytechnic university students who had struggled. I remember one young lady who was a single (black) mother who was working part time as a cleaner in a hospital to keep herslef and her baby whilst putting herself through business school. "She's the one for me" I thought and she had a year in my group, finished her studies as a sponsored student by us so she could give up her hospital work, and rejoined us for a great career. I actually told her at her first interview that she had the job and she burst into tears.

 

A great and rewarding part of being a manager is mentoring.

[Tothesunset]

A great and rewarding part of being a manager is mentoring.

Couldn't agree more. Especially when you identify someone who doesn't, themself, realise their own potential.

 

I am really rather proud of one young lady I inherited when I took over a department. She had no formal educational qualifications, had a somewhat colourful upbringing and was very underconfident. At the age of 20 she was working in a menial position in the dept. But there was something about her - a certain air of competence - so I thought it worth giving her some responsibility within the dept. I was lucky to have a dept manager that shared my view and undertook to take Miss M under her wing. This young lady went on, over the next 3 years, to get her GCSEs in her own time, took an intensive distance learning course in practice management and eventually gained a job as a manager in another dept largely on my recommendation that her youth and relative inexperience were balanced by good people skills and a quick and adaptable brain.

 

She married and moved back to the UK. A few years later she was back in Germany on holiday and called in. She had joined the Prison Service and last I heard was holding down a senior position. This was a young lady who, in my opinion, had been failed by an education system (and how often do we see that) that had failed to recognise her talents and motivate her coupled with an upbringing that didn't encourage girls to achieve.

 

It just makes you wonder how many young people out there have some serious difficulties to overcome to achieve their potential. Thankfully there are good people out there who can recognise talent and nurture it. Sadly, there are also people who see talent as some sort of threat and choose to suppress it. Sad really.

[UKCruiseJeff]

That's a lovely story.

 

I fear that the current process of what most of us of "some experience" see as a very large reduction in actual educational standards but 50% of youngsters gaining a university degree at the cost of talent and investment being lost to vocational training makes more youngsters consider themselves "better" than they are. It transpires that it is possible to leave university with a degree in almosty anything but lack the basic numeracy and written skills. It does no good for anyone to have a whole generation of kids believing that they are worth more than the are to industry and work generally. No one is allowed to be critical and tell kids these days that they lack anything. They are only allowed to tell them how wonderful they are.

[mysty]

Greetings Coolers!

 

Interesting posts to wake up to this morning. I really wish there had been more of this open-minded thinking towards the women of my generation! I was one of about 6 women in a graduating class of about 60 in the Mathematics program in 1974. Of the six of us, 4 went into teaching. I didn't think that was the right career path for me. I started the job application process in November of the year before graduation and was lucky to be hired in August. There were reams of "rejection" letters. One particular job application and interview stood out for me. Dun & Bradstreet was looking for a data analyst. I applied, had the interview and was thrilled when the interviewer told me he wanted to hire me and that he had to send my resume and interview results to head office for their approval. I got a phone call about 3 days later saying that head office did not want a woman in that job because it involved travel and they didn't want a woman staying alone in hotels/motels. I have no real evidence that this attitude was the motivating factor for the reams of rejection letters I received. However, most of the males from my graduating class got job offers outside of teaching. I may not have qualified as the "bright light" that you gentlemen were watching out for but it would have been nice to have been given the chance to prove myself. And I'm very sure that I was not alone in my quest for that opportunity. I'm hoping that things are improving for women in the world of employment these days.

 

Have a great day all!

[Tothesunset]

Can't argue with that, Jeff.

 

I have a bit of a problem with the university thing. I've heard it said that the problem with the days when only the very brightest went to university was that the universities were then elitist. Wlll, in my view they should be elitist - at least as far as academic ability is concerned BUT intellect is only one measure of ability; the level of intellectual ability matters only in so far as it is important for complex intellectual challenges.

 

So if half of the population go to University does that mean that 50% of the population are then equipped for a work life that demands incisive thinking? Of course not. You also need people skills, manual skills etc. To me the old fashioned apprentice system - better yet the apprentice to master schemes in Germany - was very much more suitable for many people.

 

Clearly there are certain professions that demand a high degree of intellectual ability but does that mean that intellectual ability is somehow more valuable than practical ability? I don't think so.

 

I am also appalled at the level of literacy. Part of my time was spent as an examiner for admission to the Royal College of Surgeons as part of which the candidates would present case reports and other written material. Not only would one have to fight through unusual spellings, syntax and punctuation but sometimes it was just impossible to decipher the meaning from the sea of words. Yet interview the candidate face-to-face and they were bright, motivated and skilled - characteristics that they did not put across in writing. And that's a shame.

 

It's an interesting area of reflection and one that there are as many solutions as there are problems; probably more!

 

I look at my 2 sons both of whom need to express themselves clearly in writing. Both have improved their communications enormously to a point that people of our generation would have reached when leaving school. I don't care that knowing the structure of language is considered old-fashioned and fuddy-duddy - it's very important. How can you effectively use a tool if you don't know how it works?

 

Anyway, now that we've solved the education crisis I need to get in the kitchen and get dinner ready for OH who returns from visiting son No 1 in Surrey today. I always feel so inadequate at such times knowing that my amateur efforts will be kindly received but also disappointing. Ho hum.

[Tothesunset]

Greetings Coolers!

 

Interesting posts to wake up to this morning. I really wish there had been more of this open-minded thinking towards the women of my generation! I was one of about 6 women in a graduating class of about 60 in the Mathematics program in 1974. Of the six of us, 4 went into teaching. I didn't think that was the right career path for me. I started the job application process in November of the year before graduation and was lucky to be hired in August. There were reams of "rejection" letters. One particular job application and interview stood out for me. Dun & Bradstreet was looking for a data analyst. I applied, had the interview and was thrilled when the interviewer told me he wanted to hire me and that he had to send my resume and interview results to head office for their approval. I got a phone call about 3 days later saying that head office did not want a woman in that job because it involved travel and they didn't want a woman staying alone in hotels/motels. I have no real evidence that this attitude was the motivating factor for the reams of rejection letters I received. However, most of the males from my graduating class got job offers outside of teaching. I may not have qualified as the "bright light" that you gentlemen were watching out for but it would have been nice to have been given the chance to prove myself. And I'm very sure that I was not alone in my quest for that opportunity. I'm hoping that things are improving for women in the world of employment these days.

 

Have a great day all!

That really is a damning tale of prejudice and, dare I say it, stupidity on the part of your prospective employers. I know we live in a different time and place but that doesn't excuse such short-sighted employment practices. Of course your experience shouldn't happen now, if it did in the UK these days the employers would, rightly, be open to action under employment legislation.

 

I have a 5-year-old granddaughter. I hope that she has the opportunity to do whatever she wants to and is capable of whether that be a Prima Ballerina or a deep-sea welder.

[mysty]

Yes, TTS! Here's hoping!

[UKCruiseJeff]

I think there is a real inter-generation issue with literacy. I often have to help my youngest son with work seeking and related actions and it does seem to me that that generation simply doesn't accept that literacy and spelling etc is important. When I try to explain that it is often older people reading applications or emails and in job hunting for example sifting through piles of applications is often initially a discarding rather than selection process they do not seem to get it. They do not differentiate between the acceptibility of poor stuff in social media than job applications.

 

It's a shame M had a difficult time being taken seriously.

 

I use to generaly always interview people that had been described as "difficult" because I think I was as an employee given the wrong manager. Inventiveness normally comes from difficult people who are argumentative and think differently.

[MissSophia]

Very interesting reading this morning....I can identify having experienced being a female of a certain rank in a mainly male dominated service back in the late 70's early 80's.

I had to hold my own on many occasions to the point of shock tactics to get my point over or indeed achieve results for my subordinates.

In the early days of my first senior promotion l was sent to 'head office' for a weekend residential course and caused quite a furore as the powers behind the desks had placed me in the male quarters......and when l appeared stated...."Oh....you're a woman" ....well last time l looked...correct! Ironically this worked to my advantage with regard to sexism....twas a good job that l wasn't a drop dead gorgeous blonde though TTS...😉

 

What l find annoying these days is the way the english language is so curtailed with abbreviations which the younger generation seem to think quite normal.....plus the F word seems also to be quite acceptable....it still makes me cringe to the point where l have on many an occasion had to hold my tongue....and as an anecdote to this l remember at the age of thirteen asking my mother what this word meant and was rewarded with a slap across the ear with very strict instructions to never use it again!

It's not until one gets older that we understand all this....and no matter what qualifications one has its still down to life experience in the end.

 

Off the soapbox now.....😉

[UKCruiseJeff]

Hi Coolers,

 

Helga blessed us with a decent ride to Seaside, and here we are. I wish I understood why every car has to slow down to a halt when we pass Stonehenge. It took yonks to go a mile or two. That is what happens when I relent tomwifey and drive during the day.

 

I can say without any fear of contraception that I have seen a piccy of Soapy in her servicemgear and there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of mistaking her for a bloke!. She is extremely modest because that promotion was extraordinary, Can't say more ..... :D

 

Tonight will be a delivered curry!

[MLeh]

This is also true in business.

 

When mentoring the only personal suggestion that I felt very strongly about and that I'd make for females was that they did all the could to avoid personal relationships with work colleagues as I felt it nearly always harmed their stature and reputation. It is simply a complication best avoided.

 

 

But it didn't harm the stature and reputation of the men?

Just another example of women being held to a higher standard.

 

I worked in a very male dominated field for 30+ years, and the thing that bothered me most was having to earn my credibility every time I met or talked to someone new. It seems that, generally speaking, men have instant credibility, (but can lose it through their actions) whereas women need to somehow prove themselves before it is given.

 

Best example: answering the phone. One day I answered the business phone and had someone ask to speak to a salesperson. I responded that I could help them. They replied that they had a very technical question and needed to talk to someone who could answer the question. I advised that I would be able to do that. They finally asked "Isn't there a man I could talk to?"

 

My response was "Tell you what. You ask me the question and if I can't answer it I'll go find a man for you to talk to."

 

They asked the question, I gave the answer, and at the end of the conversation they apologized (because we're Canadian) for their preconception of my ability based on gender.

 

If my husband had happened to have answered the phone, he wouldn't have had to go through the rigmarole of proving himself - they would have just asked the question (and then he would have had to come and find me to answer it).

 

 

 

 

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[Solo mi!]

I am curious! I would like to know something about how the Silversea Water Cooler started. You have probably answered this in the past. If that is the case, please point me in the right direction and I'll look it up. I do enjoy the posts.

 

Thanks,

Penny