Rhine water levels 2018 and similar topics

[notamermaid]

2 hours ago, ural guy said:

Warm enough, I biked back in shorts and Tshirt, until the rain came.  Hope it is enough to help out folks in the next week or so.

 

ural guy,

 

glad to read you had a lovely time in Trier. No wonder you were able to cycle in a t-shirt today. The small town of Hatzenport, which is also on the Moselle, reported 21.1 degrees Celsius today! Which is about 10 degrees more than one expects on a nice November day. Cold days in November get us down to zero to minus 5. It is just crazy. Read again today that there are still farmers harvesting strawberries in Hessen.

 

It started raining here in the Rhine valley during the late afternoon.

 

Kaub is forecast to rise to 52cm tomorrow. Will it happen?

 

notamermaid

 

[RDC1]

2 hours ago, FuelScience said:

If you start a "River Cruiser's Bill or Rights," I'll post the "rights" that were spelled out in my documents I received from Nicko. They specifically come from EU Directive 2015/2302.

Depending upon how one (ie the courts) interpret language such as unavoidable and extraordinary  circumstances, alternative and equivalent quality, etc.  used with the EU directive you referenced, they would not necessarily provide relief to the river cruising issues. 

 

Actually if one reads the sections concerning advance notice the river cruise companies are better off not to provide notice of changes in advance of the trip (since such notice might require the company to allow people to cancel) whereas if they continue to intend to offer the trip as scheduled, but cannot due to unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances (weather and water levels), and do provide alternative transportation and housing they would seem to actually be somewhat protected under the directive.

[Mark_T]

Once again I have to complement APT on straight talking in this regard, if you wanted to cancel the option was there.

 

We have just finished an amazing ‘Abba’ evening with Jela & Connie our fabulous entertainers and Anja our cruise director has been amazing in adapting to the constant changes.

 

Relally couldn’t ask for more from APT.

[pully8]

9 hours ago, Mark_T said:

 

I think the key word there is ‘inform...’ more than a week out I am not sure there is very much information they honestly can give. Certainly they can’t state what will or will not be possible, so I have to commend lines like APT for giving people the option to cancel or to continue on an alternate itinerary. 

 

If lines are not giving people the option to cancel then I agree, that is wrong. 

 

Thank you for your updates. There are several accounts on social media stating they are not being informed by APT or just prior to boarding a plane or when in Europe.

In 1 case she said it was just hours before the flight and her agent managed to get them on an Avalon cruise. Not sure how that was done.

Our TA yesterday was told by APT all cruises are going as planned and the water levels are improving!!!

Evidence suggests otherwise, saying black is white does make it so.

Funny if not serious and not the level of service people expect, but perhaps this is the new normal for APT, which if true the brand has changed.

Have a good trip and any updates appreciated.

 

[pully8]

1 hour ago, Mark_T said:

Once again I have to complement APT on straight talking in this regard, if you wanted to cancel the option was there.

 

We have just finished an amazing ‘Abba’ evening with Jela & Connie our fabulous entertainers and Anja our cruise director has been amazing in adapting to the constant changes.

 

Relally couldn’t ask for more from APT.

I think ethically it is correct to offer the option to cancel when the cruise has changed so much and  is a completely different product.

We would be happy to be given that option,  so far that is not what is being offered.  Zero straight talking this end. Message is cruises are going as planned. Water levels are improving. Appreciate your updates.

[peregrino]

We are booked on AmaVenita in about 3 weeks, and are also planning to travel to Europe well before the cruise.

 

Here is our reply from APT this morning, in response to our email asking about APT's strategy for dealing with the low water levels:

 

"Thank you for your email, and I hope I can alleviate some of your concern.

 

We had a lot of sailing effected in October which we decided to cancel.  Our November sailings have not been effected and the water levels are on the rise with more rainfall this month.

 

If there is anything that will be changed or if your sailing is disrupted we will do our best to advise you in advance of this occurrence.  I have a site that you can check leading up to your tour which shows the current river level warning and if the water level is critical.

 

http://www.rivercruiseinfo.com/content/river-levels

 

I hope this will help settle your concerns and I wish you a wonderful trip!"

 

Needless to say, the marine shipping website of The Netherlands and the river cruise boat website do NOT show that the current November sailing is unaffected.  The German website for their river levels shows that the level at Kaub is still critically low, as Notamermaid has pointed out earlier.

[ural guy]

Here's the weird thing in all this: typically an informed consumer is good consumer.  With the internet we have all this information at our fingertips, which should be great.

 

But, if you have no ability to cancel, or deviate from the cruise lines plan, all that extra info means nada as you are locked in.  It only causes extra pre trip stress, as opposed to the joy of knowing that you will be on a ship soon.

 

The only option I see is to pay the hefty tag for 'Cancel for any reason'.  I had 3rd party insurance that didn't include that, only a cancel for work reason (with 75% cash recovery), and the typical death/illness/etc reasons.  It was about $270 usd/person for $5k of coverage.  Total coverage would have been about 2.5X's that. 

 

It was raining last night on the Mosel, but mostly light sprinkles.

[Marjan1]

15 hours ago, bubbulz said:

I think that cruise lines that fail to inform customers in a timely manner about the true breadth of possible interruptions in their original itinerary will be judged very harshly after this season. Many cruisers have invested a significant amount in their trips (both in terms of money and time) and would/could take advantage of 'cancel for any reason' clauses in their trip insurance policies. It's all about communication and from what I've seen here, most of the cruise line companies are failing miserably.

 

Australian travel insurance policies do NOT include “cancel for any reason” benefits.  

 

We are between a rock and a hard place if cruise itineries are drastically altered.   Unless the cruise company cancels (and refunds are given), we are stuck with whatever the companies choose to offer, and they know it!

 

If WE cancel , we lose our money with no insurance (unless through illness or other covered event).  As most river cruises cost in the vicinity of $10K each, most couples cannot afford to cancel so are stuck with bus trips or unwanted itineraries.   

 

Luckily for us, our September cruise from Budapest to Amsterdam was relatively unscathed, only a well-managed ship swap at the mid point.  

[pully8]

Yes that is correct about the travel insurance, no cover for cancel for any reason.

A long European river cruise with land pre/post and business class airfares, its 30-40 hrs to fly to Europe, can easily cost $30-40000 for 2.

Big price for a potential mystery cruise and notification shortly before departure or in some cases after arrival.

Given the unreliability, and recent conduct some will no longer take the risk? 

[peregrino]

Here is a nifty website for river levels in Germany:

https://www.bafg.de/EN/06_Info_Service/01_WaterLevels/waterlevels_node.html

 

I think someone said here (Notamermaid?) that Kaub is a key pinch point on the Rhine, south of Koblenz.  It has been +/- 45 cm recently, and expected to peak at about 50 cm for a day or so (red squares on graph), according to this German website:

 

Someone said that Kaub needs to be about 78 cm on the gauge, in order to have 1.90 m of river depth (to be navigable).

 

The draught of AmaVenita is given as 1.6 m,  so that would be not much spare under the keel?!!

 

Looking at that German graph, it doesn't look like the AmaVenita will get past Kaub anytime soon?

 

Mucho rain, pronto, por favor!!!

 

[djh1959]

Marjan1 and pully8.  I am so glad you posted that.  I too am in Australia and there is certainly no such thing as "cancel for any reason".

 

We are booked with Scenic for next October, the Rhine Highlights, and I am seriously regretting paying the $2000AUD non-refundable deposit.  I am even considering cancelling now, but losing $2000 for nothing doesn't thrill me.  I am working on the basis that surely this couldn't happen again next year, but I know that it could.

 

Just our 7 night cruise was $12000, then we still have to add flights and pre- and post-cruise.  Luckily we will do all that ourselves and not involve Scenic at all, as from what I have read on here and on social media they are pretty much the worst company of the lot.  I wish I had known that before booking, but my parents have done four trips and raved about them.

 

I know for a lot of retirees that these river cruises are literally using their life savings before they settle to a life of relative poverty and it is so sad for them when this happens.  In our case, we have been lucky enough to travel to Europe regularly although that probably won't continue for too much longer.  I am using the small inheritance left to me by my father for this trip and would be devastated if it gets ruined.  Due to bladder issues, bus trips longer that 45-60 minutes are just not possible, so if this happened to us, I would have to cancel the trip, and as you said, our travel insurance wouldn't cover it.  What we need is for Scenic to cancel, but they haven't done that this year at all, unfortunately.  We already have our Plan B in place with either trains from Amsterdam to Basel or possibly hiring a car if worst comes to the worst.  The problem is finding the money to pay for it all, when it is all tied up in the cruise.

 

I think the idea of a River Cruise Bill of Rights would be wonderful, but again, not sure it would hold in Australia.

[pully8]

We have heard good reports about Scenic land and on board experience. Likewise for some other premium operators.

Some of the issues seem to be from unsatisfactory responses from other structures in the organisation. In the case of scenic some of those processes were highlighted in the 

infamous class action case, to be appealed later this month.

Meanwhile we wait to see the outcome of our booked cruises, getting updates from people onboard and other sources.

Accurate information from the operators is promised but not delivered, or grossly inadequate or wrong. Who makes decisions and directs the flow of info in these orgs, legal dept, PR?  

 

[Mark_T]

Peregrino , was the email response you copied above from the Australian office? Was there by any chance a name of the person who sent it?

 

they were referencing that abaondoned website that has not been updated for a long time now so it gives an entirely false impression that all is well. 

 

I wil will talk to our APT rep on board and see if I can get that incorrect information rectified. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Mark_T

[pully8]

agree it would be great to get correct and timely information from APT and thank you for trying to do so.

our TA emailed us yesterday to say APT had advised river levels were improving and cruises were going ahead as planned. 

[peregrino]

31 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

Peregrino , was the email response you copied above from the Australian office? Was there by any chance a name of the person who sent it?

 

they were referencing that abaondoned website that has not been updated for a long time now so it gives an entirely false impression that all is well. 

 

I wil will talk to our APT rep on board and see if I can get that incorrect information rectified. 

 

Mark_T, yes the original email was a response from the APT Australian office.

 

I replied to query the website and said it wasn't functioning.

 

The reply from an APT "customer recovery specialist" was "The websites provided to you were and are correct".

 

There was a whole lot more fluff about their specially designed boats (that could miraculously... umm... float on gravel bottoms?)... and therefore their cruises were continuing to operate!  ;)

 

How about just the facts ma'am?  Good grief, how hard can it be?  We can all see that there is a problem.

 

Actually, we were only provided the one redundant website by APT.  I found the rest by searching online.

 

Regardless of all the fluff, there is no getting around the geometry of boat draught and water depth, despite PR verbal gymnastics.

[notamermaid]

6 hours ago, peregrino said:

We are booked on AmaVenita in about 3 weeks, and are also planning to travel to Europe well before the cruise.

 

Here is our reply from APT this morning, in response to our email asking about APT's strategy for dealing with the low water levels:

 

"Thank you for your email, and I hope I can alleviate some of your concern.

 

We had a lot of sailing effected in October which we decided to cancel.  Our November sailings have not been effected and the water levels are on the rise with more rainfall this month.

 

If there is anything that will be changed or if your sailing is disrupted we will do our best to advise you in advance of this occurrence.  I have a site that you can check leading up to your tour which shows the current river level warning and if the water level is critical.

 

http://www.rivercruiseinfo.com/content/river-levels

 

I hope this will help settle your concerns and I wish you a wonderful trip!"

 

Needless to say, the marine shipping website of The Netherlands and the river cruise boat website do NOT show that the current November sailing is unaffected.  The German website for their river levels shows that the level at Kaub is still critically low, as Notamermaid has pointed out earlier.

I need to utter my concern. If a river cruise company refers a customer to the linked website and that customer reads today's message for the Rhine he will see in the headline then the basic information is incorrect:

Rhine
Upstream KM	Station Name	Waterlevel OK for this Month	Waterlevel OK overall
All reported waterlevels on this river are fine.
For more information on this river, plase click here...
All reported waterlevels on this river are fine.
For more information on this river, plase click here...

[notamermaid]

2 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

I need to utter my concern. If a river cruise company refers a customer to the linked website and that customer reads today's message for the Rhine he will see in the headline then the basic information is incorrect:

Rhine
Upstream KM	Station Name	Waterlevel OK for this Month	Waterlevel OK overall
All reported waterlevels on this river are fine.
For more information on this river, plase click here...
All reported waterlevels on this river are fine.
For more information on this river, plase click here...

Somehow the formatting did not work, so I am continuing from previous post.

 

"NOTE: The warnings displayed here are not official warning levels. They only indicate, if a river has a rather high (or low) level OR if the level is in its 'comfort zone' (based on the measured data so far), not if the river is closed for navigation.
 

The warnings are always based on the water levels the database aggregated the day before"

 

You will find this wording at the top of the page. But as of yesterday this info was incorrect as well. Indeed as basic information this has been incorrect since the middle of August. Who looks at the details? Will people understand the nature of the situation just from looking at the info when they are so far away, Australia for example? I doubt that it is clear to them. I myself can look at reports on the Mississippi, but that does not mean I know anything that makes be able judge about the river cruise situation on it (as an example).

 

As of today one can assume that the situation will get better, but really, guys, it is far from good by anybody's standard. "Improving" is so vague a word, river cruise companies need to be a bit more precise I think. Not necessarily on a website but for everyone who has booked a cruise a short precise answer on the phone should be possible. This is the 21st century.

 

Okay, I will try and calm down. then onto river levels today.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[bubbulz]

4 hours ago, pully8 said:

Yes that is correct about the travel insurance, no cover for cancel for any reason.

A long European river cruise with land pre/post and business class airfares, its 30-40 hrs to fly to Europe, can easily cost $30-40000 for 2.

Big price for a potential mystery cruise and notification shortly before departure or in some cases after arrival.

Given the unreliability, and recent conduct some will no longer take the risk? 

Just to clarify my comment about the optional 'cancel for any reason' clause in U.S. policies: It is an extra option, is only available with some policies, is usually a very expensive option, and only reimburses about 75% of the trip cost. It's not something I usually purchase due to the poor coverage and the fact that it is pricey for what you get. My point was that some people do have this option and if the cruise companies were more forthcoming regarding conditions that they might choose to cancel. 

[G.M.T.]

On 11/11/2018 at 2:34 PM, hbr777 said:

6 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

As of today one can assume that the situation will get better, but really, guys, it is far from good by anybody's standard. "Improving" is so vague a word, river cruise companies need to be a bit more precise I think. Not necessarily on a website but for everyone who has booked a cruise a short precise answer on the phone should be possible. This is the 21st century.

 

Okay, I will try and calm down. then onto river levels today.

 

notamermaid

 

 

A little incorrect knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.

 

Notamermaid, on the now defunct Website, there are river cruise ship specifications, e.g. showing minimum and maximum draft, as this information is static I would presume that it is correct. Maybe could be used to determine if a river section is passable for a particular ship.

 

Here is the link for the Viking Jarl:

 

http://www.rivercruiseinfo.com/content/ships-index?s_id=241

 

 

 

[notamermaid]

3 hours ago, peregrino said:

Here is a nifty website for river levels in Germany:

https://www.bafg.de/EN/06_Info_Service/01_WaterLevels/waterlevels_node.html

 

I think someone said here (Notamermaid?) that Kaub is a key pinch point on the Rhine, south of Koblenz.  It has been +/- 45 cm recently, and expected to peak at about 50 cm for a day or so (red squares on graph), according to this German website:

 

Someone said that Kaub needs to be about 78 cm on the gauge, in order to have 1.90 m of river depth (to be navigable).

 

The draught of AmaVenita is given as 1.6 m,  so that would be not much spare under the keel?!!

 

Looking at that German graph, it doesn't look like the AmaVenita will get past Kaub anytime soon?

 

Mucho rain, pronto, por favor!!!

 

peregrino, Thank you for posting the graph. It has been done before, but it is good to have it for "newcomers". You have added good and correct info. The next days could not be more nerve-wracking for river cruisers and companies alike. While there has been a basic improvement in level at Kaub since October, that fact has on the other hand created a fine line between sailing and not sailing for the 135m ships. 30cm is considered a safe amount to have under the keel for sailing but it can be done with a little less. Between 48cm and 56cm seems to be be the critical time for decision-making for a ship to sail (not necessarily sailing but preparing for it). The 110m ships are getting by - so to speak -  with a little less, they have been going through the gorge at 45cm at Kaub. That gauge/area is indeed the bottleneck.

 

In the graph the figure 78 is nowhere near in sight soon and I do not think it will appear in the next three days as the prediction - and the current weather forecast agrees - does not indicate a rise. Just a word of caution, the red squares are the forecast, the outlined red squares after that are the tentative prediction and are very likely to change every 24 to 36 hours. I would take those with a large pinch of salt.

 

I do not wish to speak for any company, but only intend to give as clear a picture as possible, so cannot comment on the AmaVenita making it or not.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

4 minutes ago, G.M.T. said:

A little incorrect knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.

 

Notamermaid, on the now defunct Website, there are river cruise ship specifications, e.g. showing minimum and maximum draft, as this information is static I would presume that it is correct. Maybe could be used to determine if a river section is passable for a particular ship.

 

Here is the link for the Viking Jarl:

 

http://www.rivercruiseinfo.com/content/ships-index?s_id=241

 

 

 

I agree, it is very problematic to have slightly incorrect knowledge and have looked at some ships' specifications on the website before. There is very good detailed info. With the Viking Jarl I am little surprised that the maximum draft is given as 2.10m. It does not state that on the shipyard website and as far as I remember the figure has not appeared on the Viking website. However, "Binnenschifferforum", those are the real guys that partly actually sail the rivers, has mentioned such high figures for the longships.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

Right, where are we today as regards the situation on the Rhine and water levels? Basically not much difference from yesterday. The levels this lunchtime (local time): Maxau 334cm, Kaub 46cm, Koblenz 62cm.

 

We have had a nice bit of proper rain which is making the river react positively. We shall see that at Kaub during the day. For tomorrow there is the prospect of the level rising to 54cm. But before you get excited, I need to tell you that the river can very quickly loose those centimetres again. It looks likely to happen as no rain is forecast for Wednesday to Saturday.

 

As regards guaranteed navigation channel depths the situation is like this at the moment: Maxau 175cm, Kaub 158cm, Koblenz 194cm, Cologne 215cm, Emmerich 224cm.

 

This are the pure calculated figures on paper, they vary in reality and of course do not reflect shallows, that can substantially narrow the navigation channel.

 

Enough maths, onto lunch and shopping in far too warm temperatures.

 

notamermaid

 

[peregrino]

Notamermaid, thanks for those navigation channel depths!

 

I always feel happier to see the numbers (even acknowledging uncertainties), rather than general statements like "improving", etc.

 

Could you answer a couple of questions, please?

- Can the 135 m ships like AmaVenita travel on the Mosel River, and if so how far along from Koblenz?

- Is the Mosel River currently accessible from Koblenz?  (Even though the water depth at Kaub is preventing further travel on the Rhine after Koblenz, perhaps that would be an alternative interesting destination in SW Germany?)

 

Thanks in advance 🙂

[notamermaid]

AmaVenita can travel up to Trier at least, possibly even Remich (Luxembourg) as I am not sure where the ships turn around after Trier; I am not sure what the restrictions are further upstream into France for the large river cruise ships. Smaller ones do sail into France.

 

The Mosel is controlled by locks and kept always accessible from Koblenz.

 

Few itineraries go as far as Remich, most ships stop in Trier. From Koblenz to Trier it is around 180km on the river.

 

Originally only river cruise ships of up to 110m where allowed to sail without restrictions on the Moselle. Some locks are still too small for the increasing sizes of ships, i.e. only one ship fits in a lock chamber at a time, the new lock chambers being built or planned will have room for two such ships.

 

I find the Moselle a great river to cruise. While the towns are not spectacular there is nevertheless much to see of interest. Metz is a great French town to explore. Trier is fabulous for Roman history and anyone who likes half-timbered houses will find lots of those in Bernkastel-Kues. There are also some castles worth looking at or going into, albeit not as many as on the Rhine.

 

Crystal River Cruises have already diverted a few of their cruises to the Moselle due to the drought, the German company Phoenix Reisen has done the same and from what Mark_T has reported his cruise might be heading in the same direction for a day or two.

 

The only problem is getting to a convenient international airport (Luxembourg is relatively small) from a Moselle river cruise. But it can be organised as the itineraries coming from Paris to start in Remich or Trier show.

 

This is the thread on the Moselle:

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

 

[hbr777]

3 hours ago, notamermaid said:

I need to utter my concern. If a river cruise company refers a customer to the linked website and that customer reads today's message for the Rhine he will see in the headline then the basic information is incorrect:

Rhine
Upstream KM	Station Name	Waterlevel OK for this Month	Waterlevel OK overall
All reported waterlevels on this river are fine.
For more information on this river, plase click here...
All reported waterlevels on this river are fine.
For more information on this river, plase click here...

Holy Zeus. I cannot believe a company would refer customers to that site. That is NUTS.