A question about the lifeboats.

[fstuff1]

Do keep in mind the 20% gratuity.

plus the 100% solo supplement if you're drowning alone

[chengkp75]

So some rough numbers. The Pride of America has 18 life boats. 6 tender boats that carry 250 pax plus 12 regular boats at 150 pax. This equals 3300. The capacity if POA is 2500. This equals 132%.

 

This is not including crew

 

I believe you'll find that the tenders are "dual rated" (most are) at 250 (might be high) for tender, and 150 for lifeboat. The tender capacity allows for use of the upper deck, while when used as a lifeboat, you can't sit up there (plus a few other restrictions on seating in lifeboat mode). So, this becomes 18 x 150 = 2700, and minus 3 crew per boat is 2646 passenger capacity in the boats. So this is just above the maximum passenger capacity, and since boats come in fixed sizes, you'll almost always have a bit of excess capacity. Add in the 900+ crew, and the lifeboat capacity drops to 79% of all souls onboard, close to the mandated minimum. The crew will use the 25 man life rafts, of which there should be about 62 or so (they normally carry a couple of spares as well).

[trainy2000]

Passenger ships are required to carry enclosed life boats for 50% of the ships CAPACITY (this is important, we will circle back to this) plus 25% of capacity in inflatable craft, minimum. A ship like the Norwegian Epic has a capacity of around 4,100 passengers and 1,743 crew. So the bare minimum space in boats they must have is 4,273 + 25%.

 

Calacity, this is an important term. You will probably never in your life see 4,100 people on the ship though. That is capacity. That is every single bed filled. The drop down and pull-out beds in the cabins and all. So even if every room were booked with no single passengers at all? Unless every balcony cabin had 3-4 people in it? You couldn't even get close. Most ships exceed this 125% minimum anyway, but even if they only carry the minimum boats they will typically have capacity for 150-200% of the actual souls on board.

[trainy2000]

Sorry, missed a line. They are required to carry enclosed lifeboats for 50% capacity PER SIDE OF THE SHIP (=100%) plus 25% in inflatable. Minimum

[realnurse2]

So just bring this to mind-you and approx 400 of your closest friends in a hot lifeboat pitching around  a stormy sea. You might want to put the women and children on first after all.    

[Two Wheels Only]

1 hour ago, trainy2000 said:

Calacity, this is an important term. You will probably never in your life see 4,100 people on the ship though. That is capacity. That is every single bed filled.

 

For Epic, 4,100 is double occupancy. There will be more than 4,100 guests onboard.  

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, trainy2000 said:

Sorry, missed a line. They are required to carry enclosed lifeboats for 50% capacity PER SIDE OF THE SHIP (=100%) plus 25% in inflatable. Minimum

Quite a lot incorrect in your figures.  First off, cruise ship lifeboats are "semi-enclosed", not "enclosed".  Second, the ship is required to have lifesaving devices (not necessarily lifeboats) with a capacity of 50% of all souls (not just passengers) onboard, on each side of the ship.  You are correct that the total capacity of lifesaving devices must be 125% of all souls.  The amount of lifeboats required is 75% of all souls.  So, you have 75% in lifeboats, and 50% (adding up to 125%) in inflatable rafts.

 

So, using your example of Epic, which has a maximum passenger capacity of 5074 (unconfirmed, but close enough for this), and 1724 crew, they need lifesaving devices capable of carrying 8498 persons (6798 all souls x 125%).  Lifeboat capacity would be 75% of 6798, or 5098, which closely tracks with the maximum passenger capacity figure cited.  Epic has 20 lifeboats, so each would have to average 254 persons.  I believe the common size at this level is 260, so this fits the lifeboat capacity figure nicely.  The difference between the 5074 maximum passenger number and the (260 x 20) lifeboat capacity of 5200 (and some, as tenders, may carry less than 260) is the crew assigned to each boat, 6 per boat.

 

And, to carry further, using the 6798 all souls number, and 10 x 260 person boats on each side, there are required 800 person capacity life rafts on each side, though to get to the 125% total figure, they will have 1650 capacity of rafts on each side.

[dexddd]

8 hours ago, trainy2000 said:

Sorry, missed a line. They are required to carry enclosed lifeboats for 50% capacity PER SIDE OF THE SHIP (=100%) plus 25% in inflatable. Minimum

Welcome to CC.

[chengkp75]

20 hours ago, trainy2000 said:

Passenger ships are required to carry enclosed life boats for 50% of the ships CAPACITY (this is important, we will circle back to this) plus 25% of capacity in inflatable craft, minimum. A ship like the Norwegian Epic has a capacity of around 4,100 passengers and 1,743 crew. So the bare minimum space in boats they must have is 4,273 + 25%.

 

Calacity, this is an important term. You will probably never in your life see 4,100 people on the ship though. That is capacity. That is every single bed filled. The drop down and pull-out beds in the cabins and all. So even if every room were booked with no single passengers at all? Unless every balcony cabin had 3-4 people in it? You couldn't even get close. Most ships exceed this 125% minimum anyway, but even if they only carry the minimum boats they will typically have capacity for 150-200% of the actual souls on board.

Missed a few points first time through.  Cruise ship "maximum capacity" for passengers is not based on every berth filled, but instead on the capacity of the lifeboats.  Ships have excess berths so that folks who wish to book 3-4 in a cabin can have a choice of cabin categories.  And, you will likely see 4100 passengers on Epic, since that is the double occupancy number, and ships typically sail at 105% of double capacity.  And, the only amount that ships exceed the mandatory 125% is "rounding" to get to the fixed capacity of each boats/raft.  I doubt you would ever see a ship sail with 200% capacity in lifesaving devices, though at double occupancy, the ship is close to 150% available.

[fstuff1]

On 3/15/2019 at 5:42 AM, chengkp75 said:

Quite a lot incorrect in your figures.  First off, cruise ship lifeboats are "semi-enclosed", not "enclosed". 

Second, the ship is required to have lifesaving devices (not necessarily lifeboats) with a capacity of 50% of all souls (not just passengers) onboard, on each side of the ship. 

 

You are correct that the total capacity of lifesaving devices must be 125% of all souls. 

The amount of lifeboats required is 75% of all souls.  So, you have 75% in lifeboats, and 50% (adding up to 125%) in inflatable rafts.

 

so if total lifeboats handles 75% of ship capacity, then lifeboats on each side of the ship can handle 37.5% of ship capacity.

 

what if the ship lists and you cant use that side?

then you're down to 37.5% lifeboats + 50% inflatable life rafts for only 87.5% ship capacity?

 

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

 

so if total lifeboats handles 75% of ship capacity, then lifeboats on each side of the ship can handle 37.5% of ship capacity.

 

what if the ship lists and you cant use that side?

then you're down to 37.5% lifeboats + 50% inflatable life rafts for only 87.5% ship capacity?

 

Actually, you have less than that, since half of the life rafts would be on each side, and you may not be able to launch those either.  Passenger ships are only required to have 50% of all souls capacity on each side of the ship.  However, lifeboats and life rafts are designed to be able to be launched with the ship listing (heeling) 20* to either side.  Even with a catastrophic flooding accident like the Concordia, where 5 adjacent watertight compartments were flooding simultaneously (and the ship is designed to only survive if two adjacent compartments are flooding), the ship did not heel over more than 15* at any time during the hour plus between the ship striking the rock and her final grounding on Giglio.  In fact, had she not drifted back to Giglio, she would have sunk in deep water with no more than a 15* heel, and down by the stern, and all lifeboats and rafts would have been usable.  As it was, 23 of the total 26 boats were successfully launched.  The Concordia is considered by naval architects to be the "worst case" scenario with regards to damage and flooding, with that many compartments breached.

[PelicanBill]

There have been many cases of cruise ships striking underwater objects or grounding in low tides, under responsible operation (not like the Concordia) ... they are so well-built that there's never been serious damage or an evacuation I can recall.

 

After that terrible case, the next one to consider is a bad storm. Although uncomfortable, modern cruise ships handle these conditions very well when sailed properly with respect to the wind and waves.

 

What is dangerous is when there is a failure affecting navigation at the same time.  This is one reason there is so much criticism when a ship sails into a bomb cycle or cyclone storm.  Those who say the risk is low need to be reminded of last year's Viking Sky incident.  Bad sailing decision with storm conditions, plus power and engine failures.  You could launch lifeboats and rafts but they may have been at even greater risk of being run into the rocks than the ship was already.  So they decided to start pulling people off the decks with helicopters.  

 

This is why I watch the weather carefully, including hurricane season. 

 

[MoCruiseFan]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 8:41 AM, Laszlo said:

 

Since you asked its woman and children first. IF their is a seat left you might get on:D

 

LOL not at all.  I go first as soon as I am there.  I am not standing around waiting for ANYONE to take a seat that is available.  Remember equality! :)

[jingle5616]

Capacity is not the problem.  Competency to get the boats loaded properly and deployed is.  

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, jingle5616 said:

Capacity is not the problem.  Competency to get the boats loaded properly and deployed is.  

On what experience do you measure the competency of the crew?

[AstoriaPreppy]

It's my understanding that newer ships have a lot more inflatables than older vessels. When sailing Royal Caribbean/Celebrity, you get a video presentation to prep you for this. On the Edge, the monitors pop out of the ceiling for the muster drill and serve no other use for the duration of the voyage.

This video is very clear that you may not have a seat in a for-real lifeboat, and may end up in an inflatable rescue craft. More importantly is how you get into said inflatable: down a giant sleeve we christened the "rescue vessel birth canal." 

Seriously, they show a little cartoon person crossing their arms and jumping into this... 50 foot plummet chute of doom. And everyone just sits there staring at the screen until someone in the room goes "wait, what???" 

I found some images online, but I assure you the animation is much, much more horrific during a post-long island iced tea-induced muster drill. 

 

[chengkp75]

I'm not sure that there are "more" inflatables, since SOLAS has not changed the requirement for passenger vessels to have a minimum of 37.5% capacity, on each side (75% total capacity) in rigid lifeboats.  You are likely to see more MES inflatables, which can be more visible to passengers (the older davit launched rafts were commonly tucked away between the lifeboats when stored, up above the promenade) as they are large boxes on the promenade.  MES inflatables require less maintenance than davit launched rafts, have a quicker evacuation time, and are more stable.  Generally, passengers will only be using an MES if the ship is well above the double occupancy level.

[fstuff1]

15 hours ago, AstoriaPreppy said:

It's my understanding that newer ships have a lot more inflatables than older vessels. When sailing Royal Caribbean/Celebrity, you get a video presentation to prep you for this. On the Edge, the monitors pop out of the ceiling for the muster drill and serve no other use for the duration of the voyage.

This video is very clear that you may not have a seat in a for-real lifeboat, and may end up in an inflatable rescue craft. More importantly is how you get into said inflatable: down a giant sleeve we christened the "rescue vessel birth canal." 

Seriously, they show a little cartoon person crossing their arms and jumping into this... 50 foot plummet chute of doom. And everyone just sits there staring at the screen until someone in the room goes "wait, what???" 

I found some images online, but I assure you the animation is much, much more horrific during a post-long island iced tea-induced muster drill. 

 

 

wait.. it's just a freefall straight down?

you just bounce off the raft at the bottom?

 

sprained ankles and knees anyone?

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, fstuff1 said:

 

wait.. it's just a freefall straight down?

you just bounce off the raft at the bottom?

 

sprained ankles and knees anyone?

There are internal baffles that slow you down, and rotate you as you go down.  Some folks have stopped completely when going down (see poster Heidi13's personal experience in the "Rethinking Muster Drill" thread).  If you follow instructions and keep your arms and legs crossed, it really isn't dangerous, so long as the crew keep moving people away from the bottom of the chute.

[fstuff1]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

There are internal baffles that slow you down, and rotate you as you go down.  Some folks have stopped completely when going down (see poster Heidi13's personal experience in the "Rethinking Muster Drill" thread). 

If you follow instructions and keep your arms and legs crossed, it really isn't dangerous, so long as the crew keep moving people away from the bottom of the chute.

 

so it's a slight corkscrew inside the chute?

birthing canal indeed

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by fstuff1

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, fstuff1 said:

 

so it's a slight corkscrew inside the chute?

birthing canal indeed

 

There are different methods, but they generally are like a series of funnel shaped openings, so that as your "wider bits" enter the funnel, there is more drag and you slow down.  Some will have a twisting feature at the funnels, some don't.

[boatseller]

On 8/22/2020 at 10:03 AM, jingle5616 said:

Capacity is not the problem.  Competency to get the boats loaded properly and deployed is.  

Loading and deploying a boat is not that difficult.  With the regular drills, crew competency would not be the problem.  Passenger competency, to remain calm and load in an orderly fashion, might be the problem.

[dexddd]

21 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

 

wait.. it's just a freefall straight down?

you just bounce off the raft at the bottom?

 

sprained ankles and knees anyone?

NCL will find a way to charge for the experience.

[PelicanBill]

17 hours ago, boatseller said:

Loading and deploying a boat is not that difficult.  With the regular drills, crew competency would not be the problem.  Passenger competency, to remain calm and load in an orderly fashion, might be the problem.

 

And how many show up clutching their luggage.  A perennial issue with plane evacuations.

[jingle5616]

On 8/22/2020 at 7:11 AM, chengkp75 said:

On what experience do you measure the competency of the crew?

The history of passenger carrying ships in disaster situations that failed getting passengers evacuated from those ships.  It is a long history that runs right up to the Costa Concordia which was fortunate to be run aground saving many lives.  How about this little nugget.