death trap

[tartanexile81]

Designers of cruise ships have to adhere to HIGHLY stringent standards another are H&S officers on every ship. Did you talk to him / her on the ship? I'm sure Britannia is no "death trap" or would not have been built. The title is highly emotive and hugely mis-leading. However if you truly believe it is a death trap, you should still report it at the highest level rather than moaning about it on social media.

 

As far as Britannia being "the ugly ship" is concerned, I personally do not care what a ship looks like on the outside and I think internally Britannia is probably the most beautiful ship I have sailed on. I agree, however, that the itinerary is the main thing for me too in deciding which cruise to book. Nevertheless a cruise is different from a normal holiday and the ship itself plays a central part in how much I enjoy the cruise and I would never book a cruise on a ship I actively dis-liked.

[john watson]

If you look back at passenger ships which have sunk, quite often the lifeboats have not been deployed until the ship's plight has become so extreme that they cannot be launched on at least one side. Earliest well known example RMS Titanic. Captains are very reluctant to launch lifeboats with passengers in them.

 

The Costa Concordia had deployed some lifeboats with the early ones containing crew other than just the crew operating them. Crew abandoning ship en masse ahead of passengers is not unique to this incident. In 1991 MV Oceanos sunk and it is well documented and on YouTube in six parts. (search for Oceanos sinking documentary), few people know about this occurrance. From what I can gather in this case is that the ship started to take on water, the crew evacuated themselves and their luggage but did not actually report any Mayday type signal to any official authorities ashore for rescue and recovery of people or advise passengers of any emergency.

 

Another "cruise disaster" which people are largely unaware of was the Tenerife air disaster 27 March 1977. This was the worlds greatest number of fatalities resulting from an air crash. The Pan American 747 was a charter flight for an pioneering concept: "fly-cruises" and was due to embark all its passengers onto the Royal Cruise Lines ship Golden Odyssey (1974 - 1994). This is another problem cruise passengers face and YouTube has long documentaries on this one. The survivors came from the Pan-Am 747, there were not many.

 

Cruise ship sinkings are extremely rare whereas fire is a much more common problem. Alarms are not audible to passengers so panic is less likely.

 

Regards John

Edited May 25, 2018 by john watson

[picsa]

Another "cruise disaster" which people are largely unaware of was the Tenerife air disaster 27 March 1977. This was the worlds greatest number of fatalities resulting from an air crash. The Pan American 747 was a charter flight for an pioneering concept: "fly-cruises" and was due to embark all its passengers onto the Royal Cruise Lines ship Golden Odyssey (1974 - 1994).

 

On that theme another "cruise disaster" was the Paris Concord crash where the passengers were off to New York to join a cruise ship.

[kentchris]

MS Estonia - sank within five minutes of the alarm and the few passengers that survived ignored the muster points to find the fastest way off the ship.

You do realise that a Ro-Ro ferry launched in 1980 was very different animal to any passenger vessel entering service in the last few years? Nobody could ever argue that everything is perfect, since stuff always happens, but safety standards have moved on a great deal in 35 years, partly through lessons learned from Estonia's sinking.

[picsa]

You do realise that a Ro-Ro ferry launched in 1980 was very different animal to any passenger vessel entering service in the last few years? Nobody could ever argue that everything is perfect, since stuff always happens, but safety standards have moved on a great deal in 35 years, partly through lessons learned from Estonia's sinking.

 

The point was that the authorities considered the MS Estonia, a ship designed to carry 2000 passengers, to be safe when it was operating the 360 mile / 15 hour route between Tallin and Stockholm.

 

However the authorities were wrong because something that was inconceivable to them actually happened.

 

There are plenty of instances when the official advice in an incident of 'take your time and don't rush' has been proved to be completely wrong. Only recently the long standing advice from the Fire authorities for fires in high rise buildings of 'stay put until rescued' has been changed to 'get the hell out NOW'.

[balf]

 

There are plenty of instances when the official advice in an incident of 'take your time and don't rush' has been proved to be completely wrong. Only recently the long standing advice from the Fire authorities for fires in high rise buildings of 'stay put until rescued' has been changed to 'get the hell out NOW'.

 

Very good point, and it is so often the case that people have to lose their lives to force change. No one knows what would happen in a real emergency when passengers are sitting in comfort in a theatre and panic breaks out. And does anyone really think that an aircraft can be emptied in 90 seconds as demonstrated in official tests using primed young fit people, of which there are not many among cruise passengers.

 

David

[jeanlyon]

Don't forget though that there are emergency exits at the front of the theatre and the sides. Having joined Oriana Vocalists and gone on the stage, either side of the stage, there are doors, you go through there and out of the exits. Presume it's the same on Britannia.

[Host Sharon]

MS Estonia - sank within five minutes of the alarm and the few passengers that survived ignored the muster points to find the fastest way off the ship.

 

It's hardly fair to compare a cruise/ferry built in 1979 with the modern ships of today with so many built-in safety features unimaginable 40 years ago.

[picsa]

It's hardly fair to compare a cruise/ferry built in 1979 with the modern ships of today with so many built-in safety features unimaginable 40 years ago.

 

Safety features built into ships like the Costa Concordia built 10 years after the MS Estonia sinking?

[kalos]

It's hardly fair to compare a cruise/ferry built in 1979 with the modern ships of today with so many built-in safety features unimaginable 40 years ago.

 

Safety features built into ships like the Costa Concordia built 10 years after the MS Estonia sinking?

 

I think you will find Sharon has point, maybe the Concordia was built 10 years later but it did have a

safety system that the captain of that ship switched off it's warnings that it was in danger of running aground .

That was down to a captain being an idiot and not doing his job .

Back in the days of the Estonia the system were not there.

The tanker Exxon Valdez disaster in 1989 would have been avoided with todays latest technology. A modern navigational system, which is called an ECDIS, (electronic chart display and information system).

This system tells you if your running aground (same has Concordia had ) todays bridge instruments can tell you about other ships near you and plot a safe course avoiding any danger to the ship.

All hell would break loose with alarms letting the bridge crew know if you were trying to override the ECDIS system.

The bridge officers have a system in place which is now based upon an airliner crew where it is agreed by the watch command if any changes are to be made.

Listening once to Captain Camby he said...

" I maybe the captain but I could not go on the bridge and say just take the ship over there please. The answer would be No !"

They do a 3 year refresher on a ship bridge simulator which is in Amsterdam.

Ships are thankfully a lot safer with human error taken away.

This interview may be of interest to some

https://www.npr.org/2012/01/20/145525012/how-large-ships-use-navigation-systems

Edited May 26, 2018 by kalos

[prfg2012]

You're sitting in a steel box atop thousands of gallons of flammable fuel, in the middle of the ocean, miles from land. The term 'death trap' is therefore is entirely relative.

 

If there is a fire and a need to evacuate the theatre the issue won't be getting to the end of your row like Speedy Gonzales on amphetamines. It'll be that the theatre only has 2 exit's and a few hundred people with varying levels of mobiltiy are trying to navigate through them.

[jeanlyon]

The theatres have way more than 2 exits. They have at least 6! Two where you go in, two more at the sides and two more at the back of the stage.

[the english lady]

I notice no one has mentioned that for some the theatre is the muster station..it was for us on Ventura.

Knowing all the training they do. I am sure the crew will behave in a sensible manner..even if passengers try not to.

If everyone panics I am sure there will be more casualties due to people falling over and being trampled on while the survival of the fittest clamber over them.

I agree sitting in the middle of a row you are in a similar situation, as at the end of a row by a wall.

I have never heard of a fire in a theatre on a ship , however I have on ships balconies.

[bluemug]

I notice no one has mentioned that for some the theatre is the muster station..it was for us on Ventura.

Knowing all the training they do. I am sure the crew will behave in a sensible manner..even if passengers try not to.

If everyone panics I am sure there will be more casualties due to people falling over and being trampled on while the survival of the fittest clamber over them.

I agree sitting in the middle of a row you are in a similar situation, as at the end of a row by a wall.

I have never heard of a fire in a theatre on a ship , however I have on ships balconies.

It now seems that many of the casualties of the Grenfell Disaster followed the fire service advise to "stay in your flat". They have now changed their dictum to "get out fast".

[jeanlyon]

Yes if I was out and about on the ship and the alarm went, I would definitely not be going to my cabin. I would head straight for the muster station.

[majortom10]

It now seems that many of the casualties of the Grenfell Disaster followed the fire service advise to "stay in your flat". They have now changed their dictum to "get out fast".

 

That is the same advise given by fire services all over the UK for the last 30yrs I know I have given it. High rise buildings all over the UK as we were told built to withstand fire and the safest place would be in your flat due to building regulations. Unfortunately through hindsight somebody decided to clad a safe building with an unsafe cladding to save money and creating a chimney effect between the cladding and the building causing fire to spread at great speed.